Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I think they were very talented performers , but they were both very fragile and weak (psychologically speaking...).

they were both full of shit, to put it mildly... They lacked that "I don't give a shit" attitude that Brando had, for example, when he entered his decline (the late 60s and then from the 80s onward)... ...

I can say the same thing about Marvin though he always had comeback moments. I just wished there were people in his corner that knew how to take care of all of them.

I think MJ was doomed since the beginning: the troubled childhood, the issues with his nose/face, that skin illness, his asexualism (I don't think he was gay or a pedo), the insane perfectionism, the pressure of the media-fans, the Peter Pan complex, etc.

But Elvis was just...silly, he let that Colonel rule his LIFE and then he cheated on his wife, and don't get me started with the mafia connections or the decadent obsession with money, pussy and luxury in the 70s. No, Elvis dug his own hole...he also had a HUGE oedipus complex...I think he was not very bright, after all...

Madonna reminds of Brando, Prince or Dylan: introverted, psychologically strong people not obsessed by small details-perfection or society's rules...

and Marvin would still be around if not for his fuckin' father

[Edited 12/6/10 19:00pm]

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

I can say the same thing about Marvin though he always had comeback moments. I just wished there were people in his corner that knew how to take care of all of them.

I think MJ was doomed since the beginning: the troubled childhood, the issues with his nose/face, that skin illness, his asexualism (I don't think he was gay or a pedo), the insane perfectionism, the pressure of the media-fans, the Peter Pan complex, etc.

But Elvis was just...silly, he let that Colonel rule his LIFE and then he cheated on his wife, and don't get me started with the mafia connections or the decadent obsession with money, pussy and luxury in the 70s. No, Elvis dig his own hole...he also had a HUGE oedipus complex...I think he was not very bright, after all...

Madonna reminds of Brando, Prince or Dylan: introverted, psychologically strong people not obsessed by small details-perfection or society's rules...

and Marvin would still be around if not for his fuckin' father

[Edited 12/6/10 18:59pm]

You're damn right.

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I think MJ was doomed since the beginning: the troubled childhood, the issues with his nose/face, that skin illness, his asexualism (I don't think he was gay or a pedo), the insane perfectionism, the pressure of the media-fans, the Peter Pan complex, etc.

But Elvis was just...silly, he let that Colonel rule his LIFE and then he cheated on his wife, and don't get me started with the mafia connections or the decadent obsession with money, pussy and luxury in the 70s. No, Elvis dig his own hole...he also had a HUGE oedipus complex...I think he was not very bright, after all...

Madonna reminds of Brando, Prince or Dylan: introverted, psychologically strong people not obsessed by small details-perfection or society's rules...

and Marvin would still be around if not for his fuckin' father

You're damn right.

I hate that fuckin' bastard. I hate him even more than MJ's father...

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

You're damn right.

I hate that fuckin' bastard. I hate him even more than MJ's father...

I despise them both but Marvin Gay, Sr. will always be looked as nothing but evil to me and the fact that he was a preacher fucked up Marvin's world forever. I always say Marvin should've stayed in Belgium.

Anyway we're drifting off topic and you know how passionate I can be about Marvin Jr. so let's move on lol

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I hate that fuckin' bastard. I hate him even more than MJ's father...

I despise them both but Marvin Gay, Sr. will always be looked as nothing but evil to me and the fact that he was a preacher fucked up Marvin's world forever. I always say Marvin should've stayed in Belgium.

Anyway we're drifting off topic and you know how passionate I can be about Marvin Jr. so let's move on lol

I just love this old-fashioned thread about old/timeless artists/actors and the fact that Madonna is included among them

the haters are quiet, so far lol

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

I can say the same thing about Marvin though he always had comeback moments. I just wished there were people in his corner that knew how to take care of all of them.

I think MJ was doomed since the beginning: the troubled childhood, the issues with his nose/face, that skin illness, his asexualism (I don't think he was gay or a pedo), the insane perfectionism, the pressure of the media-fans, the Peter Pan complex, etc.

But Elvis was just...silly, he let that Colonel rule his LIFE and then he cheated on his wife, and don't get me started with the mafia connections or the decadent obession for money and luxury in the 70s. No, Elvis dig his own hole...he also had a HUGE oedipus complex...I think he was not very bright, after all...

Madonna reminds of Brando, Prince or Dylan: introverted, psychologically strong people not obsessed by small details-perfection or society's rules...

Madonna isn't introverted. And she IS obssessed with perfection. Her entire career is based on total control. If anything she reminds me of Oprah. Control freaks who basically steered their own destiny by geniusely manipulating the media so it works to their advantage.

Michael Jackson was just the opposite. The media was the one that manipulated him at his expense. Surrounded by losers who didn't give a shit about him, telling him lie after lie, and so and so on.

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

I despise them both but Marvin Gay, Sr. will always be looked as nothing but evil to me and the fact that he was a preacher fucked up Marvin's world forever. I always say Marvin should've stayed in Belgium.

Anyway we're drifting off topic and you know how passionate I can be about Marvin Jr. so let's move on lol

I just love this old-fashioned thread about old/timeless artists/actors and the fact that Madonna is included among them

the haters are quiet, so far lol

Let's not jinx it though.

musicjunky318 said:

JoeTyler said:

I think MJ was doomed since the beginning: the troubled childhood, the issues with his nose/face, that skin illness, his asexualism (I don't think he was gay or a pedo), the insane perfectionism, the pressure of the media-fans, the Peter Pan complex, etc.

But Elvis was just...silly, he let that Colonel rule his LIFE and then he cheated on his wife, and don't get me started with the mafia connections or the decadent obession for money and luxury in the 70s. No, Elvis dig his own hole...he also had a HUGE oedipus complex...I think he was not very bright, after all...

Madonna reminds of Brando, Prince or Dylan: introverted, psychologically strong people not obsessed by small details-perfection or society's rules...

Madonna isn't introverted. And she IS obssessed with perfection. Her entire career is based on total control. If anything she reminds me of Oprah. Control freaks who basically steered their own destiny by geniusely manipulating the media so it works to their advantage.

Michael Jackson was just the opposite. The media was the one that manipulated him at his expense. Surrounded by losers who didn't give a shit about him, telling him lie after lie, and so and so on.

I think she's manipulative, a praying mantis (like Bowie) but she's not extroverted. She really doesn't give a fuck about reviews (at least since Erotica) and while she's a control freak in the studio, she's not obsessed about the "quality" of the music, that's why she still releases a new album every three years...and that's why she has released risky albums (Erotica, Evita, American Life) or crap (Hard Candy) just because that's what she wanted to do at that moment...

Michael was basically the guy (after the Bad years, at least) that needed 6 or even 7 years to make a new album, just because "the songs are not good enough, the album is not good enough, this album is not good enough for the fans-critics"...

[Edited 12/6/10 19:24pm]

JoeTyler said:

MickyDolenz said:

Also, Elvis appeals to middle & rural America (like John Wayne) in a way that Madonna can't. Her image and dance pop music is not acceptable to this audience.

god bless the west coast and northeast then

But that's not the people I was speaking of. I mean like the heartland, the main audience for acts like Bob Seger, Bruce Springsteen, John Mellencamp, etc. or country music. The Farm Aid crowd, big Ford trucks, John Deere tractors, Marlboro Man, rodeos. That's the traditional "America" for them. Madonna doesn't really fit into that. It also helps that Elvis was from the country and was originally a truck driver.

MickyDolenz said:

JoeTyler said:

god bless the west coast and northeast then

But that's not the people I was speaking of. I mean like the heartland, the main audience for acts like Bob Seger, Bruce Springsteen, John Mellencamp, etc. or country music. The Farm Aid crowd, big Ford trucks, John Deere tractors, Marlboro Man, rodeos. That's the traditional "America" for them. Madonna doesn't really fit into that. It also helps that Elvis was from the country and was originally a truck driver.

I think she went for that audience with the Music album, the cowboy hat and all, but it failed cuz that audience realized it was still a dance album lol

Elvis has been gone for over 30 years, is still a historic figure and millions go to Memphis and visit the mansion.

When you say "when you think of rock and roll, what is the first name that pops in your head?" Most people will say Elvis or The Beatles. Some might say Chuck, and others might say the Stones, but overall, they'll say Elvis or Beatles.

JoeTyler said:

MickyDolenz said:

But that's not the people I was speaking of. I mean like the heartland, the main audience for acts like Bob Seger, Bruce Springsteen, John Mellencamp, etc. or country music. The Farm Aid crowd, big Ford trucks, John Deere tractors, Marlboro Man, rodeos. That's the traditional "America" for them. Madonna doesn't really fit into that. It also helps that Elvis was from the country and was originally a truck driver.

I think she went for that audience with the Music album, the cowboy hat and all, but it failed cuz that audience realized it was still a dance album lol

The best example of that was probably "Don't Tell Me".

JoeTyler said:

MickyDolenz said:

But that's not the people I was speaking of. I mean like the heartland, the main audience for acts like Bob Seger, Bruce Springsteen, John Mellencamp, etc. or country music. The Farm Aid crowd, big Ford trucks, John Deere tractors, Marlboro Man, rodeos. That's the traditional "America" for them. Madonna doesn't really fit into that. It also helps that Elvis was from the country and was originally a truck driver.

I think she went for that audience with the Music album, the cowboy hat and all, but it failed cuz that audience realized it was still a dance album lol

Maybe she should have had Cowboy Troy rap on it.

Cinnamon234 said:

She will probably be remembered as the biggest female entertainment icon of her time. No doubt Madonna is huge all over and an absolute icon but I can't see her overtaking Elvis. No, I don't see it happening. Madonna for one is too controversial for that to ever happen. Elvis' image is more mainstream and "acceptable" I guess you could say. His image is so huge and he is well liked in general and respected as a singer and entertainer. I don't think anyone is going to overtake the "Big three" anytime soon, which I consider to be The Beatles, Elvis and MJ. Michael has had a lot of controversy of course, many people dislike him, but most people wont deny his talent or impact.

Madonna is different. She's seen as b*tchy and her talent is constantly being debated. She's not as well liked as Elvis and according to most, not as talented. Not as far as singing goes anyway.

I don't see her being bigger than Elvis, no. But no doubt Madonna has made a huge impact and will be remembered as one of the biggest icons of our time.

/thread

No and she won't be as big of a historical figure as MJ. Some of you are giving her way too much to even name her with the ranks of Elvis, The Beatles and MJ.

Interesting thread. These folks are so different from each other it's hard to compare them, IMHO. It's their differences from their times and each other that makes them iconic, not what they have in common.

Yes, I do think Madonna is and will continue to be a great icon depending on who you ask, but given that she's not a man in a mostly man's world (ie rock stardom) she'll always be compared to these men and come up short for some people.

Unlike Elvis, Madonna comes out of a wholly urban experience and genre.....she's "downtown" and has pretty much remained so thru her career. IOW, while she and Elvis could share some fans, I think they're more or less representing two totally different experiences. She reminds me more of the English rockers of the 60s-70s than any of the American icons because she started w/ a specific fandom (dance club...gay...ethinic) and has pretty much stayed there no matter how broadly her fame has gone. No matter what Madonnna does, there's always a "Downtown 81" vibe going on, if you know what to look for!

Lastly, yes "Borderline" and all that stuff is still getting new fans. Check YouTube to see how many younguns really dig that 80s stuff.

I think Madonna is and will always be the biggest female all-around entertainer ever and the standard to which other females are compared. As for whether she will be cosidered bigger than Elvis? Probably not. But people here forget that no matter their talents, the big 3 (Elvis, Beatles and MJ) all shared a tragic death (the Beatles because of John Lennon's passing) and that more than anything else cemented their place in history. I am way too young to remember Elvis' passing but for my dad the passing of John Lennon was the single most defining moment of his "entertainment" memories and MJ' death has worked in a similar way too, the guy went from being generally ignored by everyone and being considered a has-been 80s icon and a sad and disgusting person worthy of pitty (and all that were very unfair and over the top of course) to being suddenly considered a major "current" star, an international treasure who died while he had a lot more to offer (which is over the top too because his best days were certainly behind him). So the way those people died did a lot to cement their place in history and since Madonna doesn't look likely to suffer a tragic death, I don't think she will be remembered the same way although her influence on popular culture is, if not on the same, then on a similar level to Elvis and MJ (I believe the Beatles are way above the other 3, they should be in a category of their own)

[Edited 12/7/10 2:37am]

Madonna is a Product.

Elvis was rock'n'roll, he was an artist....

I would compare Madonna to other products like

Kylie Minogue,

Pink,

Britney Spears,

Katy Perry,

Christina Aguilera

I think some of you are making the mistake of confusing musical talent with cultural impact. I know this forum is rooted in musicianship but talent is not always the deciding factor in pop culture relevancy. Do you think Marilyn Monroe would be the most famous actress if it were all based on talent?

I've always seen Madonna as an entertainer more than a musician. It's not just about the music with her, it's the entire experience. It's the fashion, the videos, the performances, the moments. Think about it, when you think of Elvis do you think of his songs first or his image? You think of his image. You don't think of Marilyn's films first, you picture that classic blond hair, the image of her dress flying up, and others. It's the same with Madonna. The image of her in the wedding dress for Like a Virgin alone is iconic. It's already being recreated and referenced over and over in pop culture and she's not even dead. Let's not forget the cone breasts, the Like a Prayer video and the Pepsi controversy. All of those things were huge pop culture moments and continue to have an impact to this day. I know people hate to admit this but her music is still out there too. Are you kidding me, Like a Prayer, Borderline, Vogue, Holiday...those songs are still being played today. Everyone knows them, even children who weren't alive while they were on the charts.

Now about the controversy. People forget Elvis and The Beatles were controversial too. A lot of things that were deemed controversial in their day do not remain that way. If you look at the Like a Prayer video it seems tame now. I was flipping through channels and Hanna Montana and had Madonna lookalike on there with the Virgin outfit and the cone breasts and that's a kids show - it's not controversial anymore.

With that said, do I think she will be bigger than Elvis? It's hard to tell, but she will obviously be one of the biggest entertainment icons in history. She already is really. The fact that we're even considering this speaks volumes. If you replaced Madonna's name with any other female artist for this thread the answer would OBVIOUSLY be no but here we are actually discussing this. I don't know if any of you have seen Evita but it's eerie how much that film mirrors her life. I think it will be like that, even after she's dead people will be debating if she deserves her acclaim.

midiscover said:

No and she won't be as big of a historical figure as MJ. Some of you are giving her way too much to even name her with the ranks of Elvis, The Beatles and MJ.

Agreed-madonna has her place in history, but it's no where near MJ, Elvis and The Beatles Actually if any female artist deserves that recognition it should be Aretha Franklin.

Only in the mind of a fool.

Madonna Equals Elvis Records in the UK

Madonna’s Celebration debuts at #1 on UK Albums chart

Madonna’s UK number one albums:

Like A Virgin (1984)
True Blue (1986)
Like A Prayer (1989)
The Immaculate Collection (1990)
Evita (OST) (1996)
Ray Of Light (1998)
Music (2000)
American Life (2003)
Confessions On A Dance Floor (2005)
Hard Candy (2008)
Celebration (2009)

She also:

- Spent more weeks (29) at number one of the Official UK Album Chart than any other female solo artist.
- Had more UK number one singles (13) than any other female solo artist.
- Achieved the chart double (simultaneous number one album and single) more times (4) than any other female solo artist.
- Completed the highest grossing tour in history (her recent Sticky & Sweet tour) for a female artist

jiorjios said:

I think Madonna is and will always be the biggest female all-around entertainer ever and the standard to which other females are compared. As for whether she will be cosidered bigger than Elvis? Probably not. But people here forget that no matter their talents, the big 3 (Elvis, Beatles and MJ) all shared a tragic death (the Beatles because of John Lennon's passing) and that more than anything else cemented their place in history. I am way too young to remember Elvis' passing but for my dad the passing of John Lennon was the single most defining moment of his "entertainment" memories and MJ' death has worked in a similar way too, the guy went from being generally ignored by everyone and being considered a has-been 80s icon and a sad and disgusting person worthy of pitty (and all that were very unfair and over the top of course) to being suddenly considered a major "current" star, an international treasure who died while he had a lot more to offer (which is over the top too because his best days were certainly behind him). So the way those people died did a lot to cement their place in history and since Madonna doesn't look likely to suffer a tragic death, I don't think she will be remembered the same way although her influence on popular culture is, if not on the same, then on a similar level to Elvis and MJ (I believe the Beatles are way above the other 3, they should be in a category of their own)

I agree with everything you said.Madonna won't become the historical figure that Elvis was,but she is easily the biggest female artist ever.She can be proud of her many accomplishments.Elvis and MJ are bigger historical figures,but they also self-destructed....something that Madonna doesn't seem likely to do.

Graycap23 said:

Only in the mind of a fool.

I actually think that the cultural relevance of both Madonna AND Elvis has faded dramatically with the new generation.

My nephews and nieces and their friends (I'm talking kids between the ages of 7 and 13) don't really know who Madonna or Elvis are for the most part. But they sure as hell know The Beatles and MJ. They sing along to "Hey Jude" all the time and I always catch them watching "Billie Jean" from Motown 25 and the "Smooth Criminal" video on YouTube They always ask me questions about MJ

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I hate that fuckin' bastard. I hate him even more than MJ's father...

I despise them both but Marvin Gay, Sr. will always be looked as nothing but evil to me and the fact that he was a preacher fucked up Marvin's world forever. I always say Marvin should've stayed in Belgium.

Anyway we're drifting off topic and you know how passionate I can be about Marvin Jr. so let's move on lol

Maybe I'm missing something here, but didn't Marvin used to go on his drunken binges, and beat up his father and wife? After the father got fed up, he said that he gave him life, and he's going to take it away, and shot him with his shotgun.

angel345 said:

Timmy84 said:

I despise them both but Marvin Gay, Sr. will always be looked as nothing but evil to me and the fact that he was a preacher fucked up Marvin's world forever. I always say Marvin should've stayed in Belgium.

Anyway we're drifting off topic and you know how passionate I can be about Marvin Jr. so let's move on lol

Maybe I'm missing something here, but didn't Marvin used to go on his drunken binges, and beat up his father and wife? After the father got fed up, he said that he gave him life, and he's going to take it away, and shot him with his shotgun.

Yea. It was terrible what happened but you don't do that kind of stuff to your father, especially one from the old school. They'll shoot you. Not argue, they will literally shoot you.

Graycap23 said:

Only in the mind of a fool.

Don't get these Madonna fans started , but seriously she has her place in musical history, not quite on Elvis level.

nursev said:

midiscover said:

No and she won't be as big of a historical figure as MJ. Some of you are giving her way too much to even name her with the ranks of Elvis, The Beatles and MJ.

Agreed-madonna has her place in history, but it's no where near MJ, Elvis and The Beatles Actually if any female artist deserves that recognition it should be Aretha Franklin.

Graycap23 said:

Only in the mind of a fool.

Exactly

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I agree

Marilyn will be remembered as a pop-art icon, and as the ultimate Hollywood bimbo (no offence) that everybody "loves", not without a certain amount of condescendence...

Dean will be always the eternal 50s teenage rebel...blue jeans, cool jackets, a muscle car, coca-colas, nasty troubles at home, that stuff Nowadays, the media sells that image, even if he made two other movies (Eden, Giant) that had nothing to do with 50s rebels...

It's funny when you talk about Dean. I dig Dean too but there was always that rivalry between him and Brando (though they were friends). Brando was one of the first to bring out that "rebel" image ("The Wild One") and he was originally suited to play in "Rebel Without a Cause" but I guess James' image appealed to them more.

supposedly Dean was obsessed with Brando (not surprising I guess, most actors were around that time) and you can see it in his style.