Timmy84 said:

musicjunky318 said:

My dad thinks Diana is the biggest female artist of all time. We always argue about it. He grew up during the era so that's probably his chief reason. I say Madonna but he seriously thinks Diana is unrivaled.

In a way he could be right. Her role in the Supremes is almost enough to assure that she was someone made a huge impact. No other black group before the Supremes dominated the charts like they did. Then Diana as a solo act did some amazing things in her career. She was indeed the biggest all-around female act (after Barbra Streisand) until Madonna came into the picture.

ok, that's true and I agree, but I've always thought that Ella, Nina, Aretha or Diana were overshadowed by Madonna's huge success in 1984 the same way that Sinatra, Dean Martin or even Chuck Berry where overshadowed by Elvis in 1955-56-57... I don't know why, maybe because Presley's and Madonna's music was poppier and more synthesized (despite being based on rock&roll and dance-pop, respectively), so it reached a wider audience all over the world...

and I'm not talking about the quality of the music, I'm talking about popularity...

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

It's interesting you said this, rather than she's remembered for her movies and acting. That's basically what the general public thinks about her. She's an image to be sold.

Marilyn hated to be referred as a sex symbol and spent like seven years trying to fight off that image that was portrayed on "The Seven-Year Itch" and "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes" films.

But her image became a lasting thing most of all.

Same as James Dean. He is a good actor, but that picture of him leaning against the wall holding the cigarette is what has lasted even more than his performances.

Timmy84 said:

musicjunky318 said:

My dad thinks Diana is the biggest female artist of all time. We always argue about it. He grew up during the era so that's probably his chief reason. I say Madonna but he seriously thinks Diana is unrivaled.

In a way he could be right. Her role in the Supremes is almost enough to assure that she was someone made a huge impact. No other black group before the Supremes dominated the charts like they did. Then Diana as a solo act did some amazing things in her career. She was indeed the biggest all-around female act (after Barbra Streisand) until Madonna came into the picture.

Yup, that's what he says. And the Supremes were the first to appeal to the mainstream in a big way, aided mostly because of Diana's type of sound. A lot of people have accused her of not being as great of a vocalist as a Patti or Gladys but in many respects it helped her win over the masses.

They may have been the better singers but she was the entire package so to speak. And every other black female played second fiddle to her.

Timmy84 said:

musicjunky318 said:

She'll probably be remembered most for her music videos I think. Her material (similar to Michael Jackson) is tied to the video era of the 80s, 90s, etc unlike the Beatles & Elvis. They were before the revolution. You know it's not just 'Like A Prayer' the song. It's the song AND the video.

Like I said, different times. But it's kinda like Michael, they would be compared to them and Michael may be the only one to hold up against Elvis and the Beatles but I don't know if they'll make that connection with Madonna.

yeah you can still watch Micheal and say "damn look at that move" or "listen to that fucking 8 year old sing!!"

NDRU said:

Timmy84 said:

Like I said, different times. But it's kinda like Michael, they would be compared to them and Michael may be the only one to hold up against Elvis and the Beatles but I don't know if they'll make that connection with Madonna.

yeah you can still watch Micheal and say "damn look at that move" or "listen to that fucking 8 year old sing!!"

Yeah he was already deemed a legend after leaving Motown.

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

In a way he could be right. Her role in the Supremes is almost enough to assure that she was someone made a huge impact. No other black group before the Supremes dominated the charts like they did. Then Diana as a solo act did some amazing things in her career. She was indeed the biggest all-around female act (after Barbra Streisand) until Madonna came into the picture.

ok, that's true and I agree, but I've always thought that Ella, Nina, Aretha or Diana were overshadowed by Madonna's huge success in 1984 the same way that Sinatra, Dean Martin or even Chuck Berry where overshadowed by Elvis in 1955-56-57... I don't know why, maybe because Presley's and Madonna's music was poppier and more synthesized (despite being based on rock&roll and dance-pop, respectively), so it reached a wider audience all over the world...

and I'm not talking about the quality of the music, I'm talking about popularity...

I also think they had good connections.

NDRU said:

Timmy84 said:

Marilyn hated to be referred as a sex symbol and spent like seven years trying to fight off that image that was portrayed on "The Seven-Year Itch" and "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes" films.

But her image became a lasting thing most of all.

Same as James Dean. He is a good actor, but that picture of him leaning against the wall holding the cigarette is what has lasted even more than his performances.

I agree

Marilyn will be remembered as a pop-art icon, and as the ultimate Hollywood bimbo (no offence) that everybody "loves", not without a certain amount of condescendence...

Dean will be always the eternal 50s teenage rebel...blue jeans, cool jackets, a muscle car, coca-colas, nasty troubles at home, that stuff Nowadays, the media sells that image, even if he made two other movies (Eden, Giant) that had nothing to do with 50s rebels...

Timmy84 said:

NDRU said:

yeah you can still watch Micheal and say "damn look at that move" or "listen to that fucking 8 year old sing!!"

Yeah he was already deemed a legend after leaving Motown.

and it's about the lasting quality of his skills as a performer

The Beatles & Michael Jackson are 1 and 2 in history I mean that's just indisputable. I'm just trying to figure out where to put Elvis & Madonna.

I can see arguments for both.

JoeTyler said:

NDRU said:

But her image became a lasting thing most of all.

Same as James Dean. He is a good actor, but that picture of him leaning against the wall holding the cigarette is what has lasted even more than his performances.

I agree

Marilyn will be remembered as a pop-art icon, and as the ultimate Hollywood bimbo (no offence) that everybody "loves", not without a certain amount of condescendence...

Dean will be always the eternal 50s teenage rebel...blue jeans, cool jackets, a muscle car, coca-colas, nasty troubles at home, that stuff Nowadays, the media sells that image, even if he made two other movies (Eden, Giant) that had nothing to do with 50s rebels...

It's funny when you talk about Dean. I dig Dean too but there was always that rivalry between him and Brando (though they were friends). Brando was one of the first to bring out that "rebel" image ("The Wild One") and he was originally suited to play in "Rebel Without a Cause" but I guess James' image appealed to them more.

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

ok, that's true and I agree, but I've always thought that Ella, Nina, Aretha or Diana were overshadowed by Madonna's huge success in 1984 the same way that Sinatra, Dean Martin or even Chuck Berry where overshadowed by Elvis in 1955-56-57... I don't know why, maybe because Presley's and Madonna's music was poppier and more synthesized (despite being based on rock&roll and dance-pop, respectively), so it reached a wider audience all over the world...

and I'm not talking about the quality of the music, I'm talking about popularity...

I also think they had good connections.

really? Elvis was always surrounded by that nasty fake Colonel that was pretty useless, and Madonna was basically on her own by 1982...(well, not exactly, she had Stephen Bray at that time...). I think they were both pretty isolated in their beginnings...

Also, Elvis appeals to middle & rural America (like John Wayne) in a way that Madonna can't. Her image and dance pop music is not acceptable to this audience.

musicjunky318 said:

The Beatles & Michael Jackson are 1 and 2 in history I mean that's just indisputable. I'm just trying to figure out where to put Elvis & Madonna.

I can see arguments for both.

I'd say:

1.Elvis

2.Beatles

3.MJ

4.Sinatra

5.Madonna

MickyDolenz said:

Also, Elvis appeals to middle & rural America (like John Wayne) in a way that Madonna can't. Her image and dance pop music is not acceptable to this audience.

Well I don't think Michael Jackson does either but he's far bigger than Elvis.

MickyDolenz said:

Also, Elvis appeals to middle & rural America (like John Wayne) in a way that Madonna can't. Her image and dance pop music is not acceptable to this audience.

god bless the west coast and northeast then

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

I also think they had good connections.

really? Elvis was always surrounded by that nasty fake Colonel that was pretty useless, and Madonna was basically on her own by 1982...(well, not exactly, she had Stephen Bray at that time...). I think they were both pretty isolated in their beginnings...

I meant RCA.

And yeah their beginnings weren't so promising.

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I agree

Marilyn will be remembered as a pop-art icon, and as the ultimate Hollywood bimbo (no offence) that everybody "loves", not without a certain amount of condescendence...

Dean will be always the eternal 50s teenage rebel...blue jeans, cool jackets, a muscle car, coca-colas, nasty troubles at home, that stuff Nowadays, the media sells that image, even if he made two other movies (Eden, Giant) that had nothing to do with 50s rebels...

It's funny when you talk about Dean. I dig Dean too but there was always that rivalry between him and Brando (though they were friends). Brando was one of the first to bring out that "rebel" image ("The Wild One") and he was originally suited to play in "Rebel Without a Cause" but I guess James' image appealed to them more.

yeah, I think that Dead made the better film (Rebel), but Brando was more iconic in The Wild One, I mean, when he appers with the leather jacket, the shades and the fuckin' motorcycle you know he could kick ANYONE's ass...

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

It's funny when you talk about Dean. I dig Dean too but there was always that rivalry between him and Brando (though they were friends). Brando was one of the first to bring out that "rebel" image ("The Wild One") and he was originally suited to play in "Rebel Without a Cause" but I guess James' image appealed to them more.

yeah, I think that Dead made the better film (Rebel), but Brando was more iconic in The Wild One, I mean, when he appers with the leather jacket, the shades and the fuckin' motorcycle you know he could kick ANYONE's ass...

Yes, because Elvis was so overrated. His 50s and early 60s musical output was quite important, but after then he just became tacky. A whole lot of very bad movies and then the dreadful drug laden 70s and the neduring image of the obese side burned red neck in rhinestone sequinned white flares singing Always on my Mind, bleech no thanks.

Elvis only really lives on in the minds of rednecks, middle corny Americana and the producers of numerous stamp issues from Ghana, Guyana, The Grenadines of St Vincent and Mali.

Madonna is becoming a bit of a cliche now, but her musical output will at least stand up in the test of time, although like Elvis her acting stunk.

I blame that on Colonel how Elvis' later years panned out...and on Elvis' own demons (drug addiction). Seeing that "Last Days" documentary on Elvis shows how deep he had fallen off. It was sad.

No. Elvis is still to this day more ingrained in popular culture then Madonna (particually world wide) and he's been dead for over 30 years now.

Who had better music and more talent you could debate for forever though.

Timmy84 said:

I blame that on Colonel how Elvis' later years panned out...and on Elvis' own demons (drug addiction). Seeing that "Last Days" documentary on Elvis shows how deep he had fallen off. It was sad.

I think having the Memphis Mafia around didn't help Elvis either.

Huggiebear said:

Elvis only really lives on in the minds of rednecks, middle corny Americana and the producers of numerous stamp issues from Ghana, Guyana, The Grenadines of St Vincent and Mali.

you know that's a big, dirty L-I-E

Elvis is SOOOOOOOOOO fuckin' popular all over the entire world , yes the world, well, maybe not certain parts of Africa and Asia but you know what I mean; he sold a truckload of copies of his remastered singles/albums in Europe during the 00-03 years, for example, and the remix of A Little Less Conversation was a H-U-G-E hit in 2002 and EVERYBODY was aware of that single cuz it was the official song of the 2002 FIFA World Cup...

I think you tried to say this: Elvis 70s music only really lives on in the minds of rednecks, middle corny Americana, and I AGREE...

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

I blame that on Colonel how Elvis' later years panned out...and on Elvis' own demons (drug addiction). Seeing that "Last Days" documentary on Elvis shows how deep he had fallen off. It was sad.

I think having the Memphis Mafia around didn't help Elvis either.

Hell Elvis couldn't really trust NO ONE in his corner as it was anyway. He was in the same predicaments that led to Michael's death too.

When he was a fatass he could still sing his behind off though.

JoeTyler said:

Huggiebear said:

Elvis only really lives on in the minds of rednecks, middle corny Americana and the producers of numerous stamp issues from Ghana, Guyana, The Grenadines of St Vincent and Mali.

you know that's a big, dirty L-I-E

Elvis is SOOOOOOOOOO fuckin' popular all over the entire world , yes the world, well, maybe not certain parts of Africa and Asia but you know what I mean; he sold a truckload of copies of his remastered singles/albums in Europe during the 00-03 years, for example, and the remix of A Little Less Conversation was a H-U-G-E hit in 2002 and EVERYBODY was aware of that single cuz it was the official song of the 2002 FIFA World Cup...

I think you tried to say this: Elvis 70s music only really lives on in the minds of rednecks, middle corny Americana, and I AGREE...

Yeah I'm more familiar to his '50s material and his early '60s material and his later work ("Suspicious Minds", "Burning Love"). So he earned his stripes and he is quite popular all over the world which is remarkable since his manager couldn't travel over the world due to visa problems and therefore he never left the country lol.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

I think having the Memphis Mafia around didn't help Elvis either.

Hell Elvis couldn't really trust NO ONE in his corner as it was anyway. He was in the same predicaments that led to Michael's death too.

I think they were very talented performers , but they were both very fragile and weak (psychologically speaking...).

they were both full of shit, to put it mildly... They lacked that "I don't give a shit" attitude that Brando had, for example, when he entered his decline (the late 60s and then from the 80s onward)... ...

She will probably be remembered as the biggest female entertainment icon of her time. No doubt Madonna is huge all over and an absolute icon but I can't see her overtaking Elvis. No, I don't see it happening. Madonna for one is too controversial for that to ever happen. Elvis' image is more mainstream and "acceptable" I guess you could say. His image is so huge and he is well liked in general and respected as a singer and entertainer. I don't think anyone is going to overtake the "Big three" anytime soon, which I consider to be The Beatles, Elvis and MJ. Michael has had a lot of controversy of course, many people dislike him, but most people wont deny his talent or impact.

Madonna is different. She's seen as b*tchy and her talent is constantly being debated. She's not as well liked as Elvis and according to most, not as talented. Not as far as singing goes anyway.

I don't see her being bigger than Elvis, no. But no doubt Madonna has made a huge impact and will be remembered as one of the biggest icons of our time.

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

Hell Elvis couldn't really trust NO ONE in his corner as it was anyway. He was in the same predicaments that led to Michael's death too.

I think they were very talented performers , but they were both very fragile and weak (psychologically speaking...).

they were both full of shit, to put it mildly... They lacked that "I don't give a shit" attitude that Brando had, for example, when he entered his decline (the late 60s and then from the 80s onward)... ...

I can say the same thing about Marvin though he always had comeback moments. I just wished there were people in his corner that knew how to take care of all of them.

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I think they were very talented performers , but they were both very fragile and weak (psychologically speaking...).

they were both full of shit, to put it mildly... They lacked that "I don't give a shit" attitude that Brando had, for example, when he entered his decline (the late 60s and then from the 80s onward)... ...

I can say the same thing about Marvin though he always had comeback moments. I just wished there were people in his corner that knew how to take care of all of them.

Like a Sharon Osbourne?