It seems like today people (top 40 fans) aren't into great singers. They're into beats, image, etc. So how important are the vocals? Can you overlook vocals if the rest of the song is great?

For me, the vocals are the most important thing. I can overlook shit lyrics and corny production if the vocal takes it to another level (I'm talking about you Beyonce!). I just appreciate the artistry of singing more than the artistry of music in general.

Some of my favorite singers don't have the best voices but they have something unique/interesting about them (Madonna, Kelis, Janet). But there are other singers (Chaka Khan, Teena Marie, Niecy) that I would buy anything they release because I like their voices that much.

That's because their parents failed to educate them. Or their parents are into "beats" too.

How important is the engine in your car?

Vocals are very important to me. But I don't expect technical perfection and someone who can hit super high notes, but I have to like the overall tone of the person's voice and they have to touch me by putting emotion and feeling into the vocals.

I probably have a different definition of good vocals than most people. Most people define great singing as being note perfect and having a huge range.

Everyone just loves to criticize Madonna's voice, but I love the sound of her voice. It's unique and has a nice tone to me and at her best (Live to Tell, Like A Prayer) she puts a lot of feeling into her voice.

Conversely, I really don't like Kylie although she may be a better technical singer than Madonna because I hate the overall nasal sound of her voice.

I like voices that sound pure. Some people love that raspy sound, but I hate that. For that reason, I can't stand Pink or Bob Dylan.

they're important, but I don't think they're more important than the instruments...

Depends on the song ...

crazydoctor said:

they're important, but I don't think they're more important than the instruments...

Yes, but if someone has a really terrible voice I can't enjoy the song and the instruments. It is ruined. The vocals don't have the be the best ever, but they have to be decent. For instance, I had this friend who was a drummer in a band. The band were great on their instruments and wrote great songs and the singer wrote great lyrics. But I literally couldn't listen to the songs, because the singer's voice was so bad. It had that raspy tone I hate and he was flat on literally every single note.

Obviously the band got nowhere. The singer guy wouldn't let someone else sing because he said the songs were personal about his life. The songs were catchy. They could have done well, but this guy's ego got in the way. Ego kills.

Glindathegood said:

crazydoctor said:

they're important, but I don't think they're more important than the instruments...

Yes, but if someone has a really terrible voice I can't enjoy the song and the instruments. It is ruined. The vocals don't have the be the best ever, but they have to be decent. For instance, I had this friend who was a drummer in a band. The band were great on their instruments and wrote great songs and the singer wrote great lyrics. But I literally couldn't listen to the songs, because the singer's voice was so bad. It had that raspy tone I hate and he was flat on literally every single note.

Obviously the band got nowhere. The singer guy wouldn't let someone else sing because he said the songs were personal about his life. The songs were catchy. They could have done well, but this guy's ego got in the way. Ego kills.

sure I definitely agree with you there. A bad voice can break a song. But in the same way... a great voice doesn't make a song imo...

I've experienced a few times listening in a shop to a single with very infectious instrumentation but lesser sounding vocals.

If the single had an instrumental b-side i would still buy it in some cases lol, but a good singer carrying a tune to another level is indeed also a big plus.

[Edited 9/23/10 12:35pm]

UptownCitizen said:

Depends on the song ...

exactly, if you're the Beatles, vocals are the most important thing, if you are making rave music, the vocals are maybe not as important

NDRU said:

UptownCitizen said:

Depends on the song ...

exactly, if you're the Beatles, vocals are the most important thing, if you are making rave music, the vocals are maybe not as important

What would you say about Macy Gray?

She doesnt exactly have the most melodious voice of all time, for sure, but in some strange way, I really like her take on some of her songs....

Now, I cant tell if I appreciate her songs because the music is so great or is just plain interesting, inspite of her vocal take, but I do like her alot.

But I will tell U that I can certainly appreciate a great voice, whether it is in a group format or solo, so maybe what I am saying is that the music is more important to me than the voice....

which is the reason I really despise the (for the most part) generic, lackluster music of today....

Its the most expressive instrument ever,,,,,so yeah, its presence is crucial.

Allnall said:

NDRU said:

exactly, if you're the Beatles, vocals are the most important thing, if you are making rave music, the vocals are maybe not as important

What would you say about Macy Gray?

She doesnt exactly have the most melodious voice of all time, for sure, but in some strange way, I really like her take on some of her songs....

Now, I cant tell if I appreciate her songs because the music is so great or is just plain interesting, inspite of her vocal take, but I do like her alot.

But I will tell U that I can certainly appreciate a great voice, whether it is in a group format or solo, so maybe what I am saying is that the music is more important to me than the voice....

which is the reason I really despise the (for the most part) generic, lackluster music of today....

I think for Macy Gray the vocals are the most important part of the music

Harlepolis said:

Its the most expressive instrument ever,,,,,so yeah, its presence is crucial.

Pedal Steel

EmbattledWarrior said:

Harlepolis said:

Its the most expressive instrument ever,,,,,so yeah, its presence is crucial.

Pedal Steel

you're saying pedal steel is as expressive as the voice? I don't think so, but slide guitar in general is definitely expressive

NDRU said:

EmbattledWarrior said:

Pedal Steel

you're saying pedal steel is as expressive as the voice? I don't think so, but slide guitar in general is definitely expressive

Church in a suitcase

EmbattledWarrior said:

NDRU said:

you're saying pedal steel is as expressive as the voice? I don't think so, but slide guitar in general is definitely expressive

Church in a suitcase

Thats a beautiful instrument. I've been trying to compile soul songs that feature it.

But as expressive as it is, it doesn't beat the universality of the human voice, every culture have its own set of instruments and musical expressions but they all identify with the same instrument; the human voice.

Harlepolis said:

EmbattledWarrior said:

Church in a suitcase

Thats a beautiful instrument. I've been trying to compile soul songs that feature it.

But as expressive as it is, it doesn't beat the universality of the human voice, every culture have its own set of instruments and musical expressions but they all identify with the same instrument; the human voice.

I dunno,

These days vocalist over sing too much. I think is because of the lack of emotionality and intimacy in songs.

For vocals to be expressive, it really depends on the singer

Of course this is Western music

i can school yall on indian classical music, and thats when Vocals are really expressive.

Western vocals really don't move me any more.

After autotune,

i'd rather hear an instrument

But i'm the exception that probably proves the rule

I'm speaking generally, here.

And there's a wealth of musical resources, it doesn't have to be limited to only recent music, you could always go back and explore. I certainly discover old albums everyday thanks to the blogosphere.

Arabic vocalists to me, are the most expressive vocalists next to soul & jazz vocalists,,,,Fairuz is def an exceptional case.

Harlepolis said:

I'm speaking generally, here.

And there's a wealth of musical resources, it doesn't have to be limited to only recent music, you could always go back and explore. I certainly discover old albums everyday thanks to the blogosphere.

Arabic vocalists to me, are the most expressive vocalists next to soul & jazz vocalists,,,,Fairuz is def an exceptional case.

Well old songs sure...

the thread was geared towards todays music.

I don't like to shit on peoples music.

But I agree theres nothing inspiring in Beyonce, Lady Gaga, or anything anymore.

But hey, those are the times.

EmbattledWarrior said:

Harlepolis said:

Thats a beautiful instrument. I've been trying to compile soul songs that feature it.

But as expressive as it is, it doesn't beat the universality of the human voice, every culture have its own set of instruments and musical expressions but they all identify with the same instrument; the human voice.

I dunno,

These days vocalist over sing too much. I think is because of the lack of emotionality and intimacy in songs.

For vocals to be expressive, it really depends on the singer

Of course this is Western music

i can school yall on indian classical music, and thats when Vocals are really expressive.

Western vocals really don't move me any more.

After autotune,

i'd rather hear an instrument

But i'm the exception that probably proves the rule

seems you're comparing the worst singers to the best pedal steel players. A terrible pedal steel player is bound to be as bad as Britney Spears

I think at it's best the pedal steel can mimic the voice (and play more than one note at a time) but it can't play different vowel and consonents sounds, let alone words

NDRU said:

EmbattledWarrior said:

I dunno,

These days vocalist over sing too much. I think is because of the lack of emotionality and intimacy in songs.

For vocals to be expressive, it really depends on the singer

Of course this is Western music

i can school yall on indian classical music, and thats when Vocals are really expressive.

Western vocals really don't move me any more.

After autotune,

i'd rather hear an instrument

But i'm the exception that probably proves the rule

seems you're comparing the worst singers to the best pedal steel players. A terrible pedal steel player is bound to be as bad as Britney Spears

I think at it's best the pedal steel can mimic the voice (and play more than one note at a time) but it can't play different vowel and consonents sounds, let alone words

they don't need words, just the sheer tone can send your cerebellum to nirvana.

Voice is tricky

it's the lyrics are bad, no matter how good the singer is. It doesn't matter.

Its the art of the song writer, and singer

Instruments its just the player, hard to ruin. Even the worst player is amazing, because they play with heart

and thats all you need.

The only time IMO, I think singing is ever effective is when the singer has the total package

Singer,Song Writer, composer Ala Allison Kraus

but those are becoming diamonds in the ruff

i'm not saying what I think is gospel,

it's just how feel

,could be wrong or right,

but its what I use to cope in this impersonal millennia

EmbattledWarrior said:

Harlepolis said:

I'm speaking generally, here.

And there's a wealth of musical resources, it doesn't have to be limited to only recent music, you could always go back and explore. I certainly discover old albums everyday thanks to the blogosphere.

Arabic vocalists to me, are the most expressive vocalists next to soul & jazz vocalists,,,,Fairuz is def an exceptional case.

Well old songs sure...

the thread was geared towards todays music.

I don't like to shit on peoples music.

But I agree theres nothing inspiring in Beyonce, Lady Gaga, or anything anymore.

But hey, those are the times.

Fine, you could still hit the indie scene and find loads of great talent that don't get exposed to radio/TV. You'd be surprised.

Mainstream media is not the end all, be all of music, people fell for that illusion though unfortunately, and they think whatever's on billboard is the ONLY type of music there is nowadays, which wrong as Monday is long.

EmbattledWarrior said:

NDRU said:

seems you're comparing the worst singers to the best pedal steel players. A terrible pedal steel player is bound to be as bad as Britney Spears

I think at it's best the pedal steel can mimic the voice (and play more than one note at a time) but it can't play different vowel and consonents sounds, let alone words

they don't need words, just the sheer tone can send your cerebellum to nirvana.

Voice is tricky

it's the lyrics are bad, no matter how good the singer is. It doesn't matter.

Its the art of the song writer, and singer

Instruments its just the player, hard to ruin. Even the worst player is amazing, because they play with heart

and thats all you need.

The only time IMO, I think singing is ever effective is when the singer has the total package

Singer,Song Writer, composer Ala Allison Kraus

but those are becoming diamonds in the ruff

i'm not saying what I think is gospel,

it's just how feel

,could be wrong or right,

but its what I use to cope in this impersonal millennia

I can't agree with all of that, but i will agree bad vocals/bad lyrics are painful to listen to, and that the pedal steel guitar is definitely one of the most expressive instruments

Actually, most instruments without frets or keys (like violin or trombone) are very expressive, and guitar players found a way to add it by bending notes or using a slide

MidniteMagnet said:

It seems like today people (top 40 fans) aren't into great singers. They're into beats, image, etc. So how important are the vocals? Can you overlook vocals if the rest of the song is great?

For me, the vocals are the most important thing. I can overlook shit lyrics and corny production if the vocal takes it to another level (I'm talking about you Beyonce!). I just appreciate the artistry of singing more than the artistry of music in general.

Some of my favorite singers don't have the best voices but they have something unique/interesting about them (Madonna, Kelis, Janet). But there are other singers (Chaka Khan, Teena Marie, Niecy) that I would buy anything they release because I like their voices that much.

Why you said that about Beyonce?(LOL...she has great vocals IMO BTW) But anyway, I agree. Vocal production is the most important thin to me because a great vocalist can do things with their voice that add to the composition of the song. In fact, a great vocalist can create without having instrumention and make great music with their voice.

Lyrics aren't really that important. In fact, I think lyrics get overstated when it comes to determining what makes great music or not. I mean, it's music, not a thesis or essay. Hopefully the OP didn't intent for this to happen but people are using this thread to hate on Today's music AS USUAL.

You know what sad about this board? The fact that because YOU, personally, don't like their music you think you're the authority on who has talent and who is inspiring. For example, GAGA went to a Performing Arts School. Gaga, probably understands music theory better than MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD. But because some of you are appaulled at her image, you clown her talent not realizing that she might emphasize the visuals but the girl does have talent and understands music. And she does a nice job in her lane.

Part of the reason why Gaga does dance music is because her former manager, Rob Fusari, probably told her that this was how she would get her foot in the door. And that's fine. That's how the industry works. Like it or not. Do I like all of today's music? No. But I don't blame the artists, at all. Not really. It's a business and the music that is being made today, isn't always made for my generation and older.

So what? Don't mean I can't respect it and even appreciate it. I notice that someone you HATE hip hop. Well, some of the best music comes from that period(like it or not). Even today's music, I am talking mainstream stuff, have some really good stuff out there but I am not here to convince you. I am just saying that it is PATHETIC that ALL THE TIME, you complain about music rather than just ENJOY IT. Like some of you are so miserable in here sometimes. It's not the end of the world that Gaga, Beyoncé, and Etc are apart of today's music and that they have fans that love their music. Life goes on.

MidniteMagnet said:

It seems like today people (top 40 fans) aren't into great singers. They're into beats, image, etc. So how important are the vocals? Can you overlook vocals if the rest of the song is great?

For me, the vocals are the most important thing. I can overlook shit lyrics and corny production if the vocal takes it to another level (I'm talking about you Beyonce!). I just appreciate the artistry of singing more than the artistry of music in general.

Some of my favorite singers don't have the best voices but they have something unique/interesting about them (Madonna, Kelis, Janet). But there are other singers (Chaka Khan, Teena Marie, Niecy) that I would buy anything they release because I like their voices that much.

1. If I hear a song and I like the beat and melody, but when I hear a voice that, to me, is not a good voice, I don't get the song. Meaning, I don't buy it. I move on. I have to like the vocal. I may like the song, in general, but not the singer singing the song. However, I don't purchase it.
2. If I hear a song that has lyrics in it that are too racy for me or I just don't like the vocal, but I'm feeling the music, I look for the instrumental.

All in all, in order for me to like a song, I have to like the musicical arrangement and the vocal arrangement. In addition, I have to like the voice I'm hearing. A voice has to be enjoyable to the ears. If I don't enjoy the voice, I won't enjoy the song as a whole. The marriage of all these is what I listen for.

[Edited 9/23/10 16:45pm]

Curtwill1975 said:

Lyrics aren't really that important. In fact, I think lyrics get overstated when it comes to determining what makes great music or not. I mean, it's music, not a thesis or essay. Hopefully the OP didn't intent for this to happen but people are using this thread to hate on Today's music AS USUAL.

You know what sad about this board? The fact that because YOU, personally, don't like their music you think you're the authority on who has talent and who is inspiring. For example, GAGA went to a Performing Arts School. Gaga, probably understands music theory better than MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD. But because some of you are appaulled at her image, you clown her talent not realizing that she might emphasize the visuals but the girl does have talent and understands music. And she does a nice job in her lane.

Part of the reason why Gaga does dance music is because her former manager, Rob Fusari, probably told her that this was how she would get her foot in the door. And that's fine. That's how the industry works. Like it or not. Do I like all of today's music? No. But I don't blame the artists, at all. Not really. It's a business and the music that is being made today, isn't always made for my generation and older.

So what? Don't mean I can't respect it and even appreciate it. I notice that someone you HATE hip hop. Well, some of the best music comes from that period(like it or not). Even today's music, I am talking mainstream stuff, have some really good stuff out there but I am not here to convince you. I am just saying that it is PATHETIC that ALL THE TIME, you complain about music rather than just ENJOY IT. Like some of you are so miserable in here sometimes. It's not the end of the world that Gaga, Beyoncé, and Etc are apart of today's music and that they have fans that love their music. Life goes on.

i don't normally like to shit on peoples music.

but you gaga is crap,

and deep down in her heart of hearts she knows it.

They all do... and it secretly kills them.

And your right this board is judgmental, and it damn right should be.

I'm not the be all anding judgement on music.

but I know the industry and I know what I like.

and I also know that humans are sheep, and will bob to anything thats spinning on their radio if its played enough.

I know that this crumbling industry which is feeding off of the beyonce's and gaga's is dying.

and has been for a decade.

but why am I even talking to you

the first statement in your rant about lyrics, disqualifies you from ever being relevant.

So forget what I just said, wasted words

Vocals are important to me

Singing Ability is not always important to me.

When I say I'm a music fan, about more than 70% of that side of me comes from me being a vocal fan. Almost all of the albums I bought, I bought them on the strength of the vocalists. Not saying the instrumentation mostly sucked and the only thing I care about was vocal part. Many of those have nice production and sound as well, which is like the icing on the cake when the singer is great. I've been this way like forever.

[Edited 9/24/10 2:13am]