Timmy84 said:

mrjun18 said:

LOL. What was the third one? If you are referring to Right Here Human Nature Remix being an uptempo track, those words never came from my mouth either. To me that song is neither up/downtempo, but a midtempo. Though if someone called it an uptempo track I wouldn't be mad at them for classifying it as that.

Uptempo NJS for tha era is more like 'Humpin Around', 'If I Had No Loot', 'What About Your Friends' etc... IMO.

This kinda bridge new jack swing with what became "hip-hop soul" and the MJ remix of "Right Here" is definitely "hip-hop soul".

This song was actually the one that got me hooked to SWV. I thought they were just "okay" after the original "Right Here".

That whole album was hot.

mrjun18 said:

TonyVanDam said:

The Human Nature Mix is NOT midtempo neither. It's slower than midtempo.

so what do u consider a midtempo njs track and what do u consider an uptempo njs track?

uptempo.....

midtempo....

missfee said:

I love both versions but I feel the original more. That's the version that takes me way back to my childhood during that time period.

Oddly I thought after this song they weren't nothing...THEN they came out with "I'm So Into You" later that year and I was sold on them! Then "Weak" came out and it was a fucking wrap!

TonyVanDam said:

mrjun18 said:

so what do u consider a midtempo njs track and what do u consider an uptempo njs track?

uptempo.....

midtempo....

If "Groove Me" is supposed to be midtempo why do I always feel like I'm doing multiple dance moves to this?!

In New Jack, unless you count the ballads and the songs that had a smoother soul flavor, none of the NJS dance songs I consider "midtempo".

SWV and Mary J. were the ones who blurred NJS and what became "hip-hop soul". For the most part, I wouldn't even put them in the group of Guy, Bobby Brown, and 'em. NJS died around '92 or '93, around the time these two came on the scene.

But I could still dance to SWV and Mary J. because their early music had some good beats. When My Life came out and later New Beginning, it was like "hmm, I can groove to it but I can't get down to it".

Timmy84 said:

If "Groove Me" is supposed to be midtempo why do I always feel like I'm doing multiple dance moves to this?!

In New Jack, unless you count the ballads and the songs that had a smoother soul flavor, none of the NJS dance songs I consider "midtempo".

SWV and Mary J. were the ones who blurred NJS and what became "hip-hop soul". For the most part, I wouldn't even put them in the group of Guy, Bobby Brown, and 'em. NJS died around '92 or '93, around the time these two came on the scene.

But I could still dance to SWV and Mary J. because their early music had some good beats. When My Life came out and later New Beginning, it was like "hmm, I can groove to it but I can't get down to it".

Sean Combs (with MJB as his muse) invented hip-hop soul.

Sean simply took Dr.Dre's idea of playing hip-hop beats at the downtempo of 95 BPM. Instead of MJB rapping, she r&b singing.

SWV's story is interesting because I always thought of them as a hybrid bridge between En Vogue & TLC. And SWV's main producer Brian Alexander Morgan was a very underrated songwriter. It's a shame that he didn't blow up in popularity as a solo artist instead of Sean Combs.

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

If "Groove Me" is supposed to be midtempo why do I always feel like I'm doing multiple dance moves to this?!

In New Jack, unless you count the ballads and the songs that had a smoother soul flavor, none of the NJS dance songs I consider "midtempo".

SWV and Mary J. were the ones who blurred NJS and what became "hip-hop soul". For the most part, I wouldn't even put them in the group of Guy, Bobby Brown, and 'em. NJS died around '92 or '93, around the time these two came on the scene.

But I could still dance to SWV and Mary J. because their early music had some good beats. When My Life came out and later New Beginning, it was like "hmm, I can groove to it but I can't get down to it".

Sean Combs (with MJB as his muse) invented hip-hop soul.

Sean simply took Dr.Dre's idea of playing hip-hop beats at the downtempo of 95 BPM. Instead of MJB rapping, she r&b singing.

SWV's story is interesting because I always thought of them as a hybrid bridge between En Vogue & TLC. And SWV's main producer Brian Alexander Morgan was a very underrated songwriter. It's a shame that he didn't blow up in popularity as a solo artist instead of Sean Combs.

It's kinda interesting how Puffy's influence was all over My Life as opposed to What's the 411? It was as if he heard The Chronic and Doggystyle over a million times and figured Mary would be better suited for the slower shit. That influence was so apparent Faith's debut was its younger sister.

i like the 2nd better.

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

If "Groove Me" is supposed to be midtempo why do I always feel like I'm doing multiple dance moves to this?!

In New Jack, unless you count the ballads and the songs that had a smoother soul flavor, none of the NJS dance songs I consider "midtempo".

SWV and Mary J. were the ones who blurred NJS and what became "hip-hop soul". For the most part, I wouldn't even put them in the group of Guy, Bobby Brown, and 'em. NJS died around '92 or '93, around the time these two came on the scene.

But I could still dance to SWV and Mary J. because their early music had some good beats. When My Life came out and later New Beginning, it was like "hmm, I can groove to it but I can't get down to it".

Sean Combs (with MJB as his muse) invented hip-hop soul.

Sean simply took Dr.Dre's idea of playing hip-hop beats at the downtempo of 95 BPM. Instead of MJB rapping, she r&b singing.

SWV's story is interesting because I always thought of them as a hybrid bridge between En Vogue & TLC. And SWV's main producer Brian Alexander Morgan was a very underrated songwriter. It's a shame that he didn't blow up in popularity as a solo artist instead of Sean Combs.

That's interesting information to know and so true, SWV definitely sounds more hip hop soul to me than new jack swing, cause early 92 new jack swing was finishing up with hip hop soul just slowly kicking in, it seems.

Timmy84 said:

TonyVanDam said:

uptempo.....

midtempo....

If "Groove Me" is supposed to be midtempo why do I always feel like I'm doing multiple dance moves to this?!

In New Jack, unless you count the ballads and the songs that had a smoother soul flavor, none of the NJS dance songs I consider "midtempo".

SWV and Mary J. were the ones who blurred NJS and what became "hip-hop soul". For the most part, I wouldn't even put them in the group of Guy, Bobby Brown, and 'em. NJS died around '92 or '93, around the time these two came on the scene.

But I could still dance to SWV and Mary J. because their early music had some good beats. When My Life came out and later New Beginning, it was like "hmm, I can groove to it but I can't get down to it".

It's almost the same tempo as Humpin' Around.

[Edited 8/24/10 7:08am]

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

If "Groove Me" is supposed to be midtempo why do I always feel like I'm doing multiple dance moves to this?!

In New Jack, unless you count the ballads and the songs that had a smoother soul flavor, none of the NJS dance songs I consider "midtempo".

SWV and Mary J. were the ones who blurred NJS and what became "hip-hop soul". For the most part, I wouldn't even put them in the group of Guy, Bobby Brown, and 'em. NJS died around '92 or '93, around the time these two came on the scene.

But I could still dance to SWV and Mary J. because their early music had some good beats. When My Life came out and later New Beginning, it was like "hmm, I can groove to it but I can't get down to it".

Sean Combs (with MJB as his muse) invented hip-hop soul.

Sean simply took Dr.Dre's idea of playing hip-hop beats at the downtempo of 95 BPM. Instead of MJB rapping, she r&b singing.

SWV's story is interesting because I always thought of them as a hybrid bridge between En Vogue & TLC. And SWV's main producer Brian Alexander Morgan was a very underrated songwriter. It's a shame that he didn't blow up in popularity as a solo artist instead of Sean Combs.

I wouldn't say he and Mary "invented" hip-hop soul, but more-so innovated it and popularized and took it to where it was never taken before....

Cuase If you listen to songs like Soul II Soul's 'Back to Life' or En Vogue's 'Hold On' and other examples that came out before Whats The 411?, and how hard them drums were hitting on them beats, you really can't call that new jack, but call it hip-hop soul.

So IMO although Mary is argubly my fav female artist 90's to present, she never really "invented" hiphopsoul... but innovated it and popularized it. With that said she is still the queen of hiphop soul no mater what.

Just like how ppl say Maxwell and D'Angelo invented neo-soul, when they really weren't the first ones to really "do it", but sure did popularize it and innovate it.

As for New Jack dying out, I'd say 1993 was the last full year NJS was in effect.

dseann said:

Timmy84 said:

If "Groove Me" is supposed to be midtempo why do I always feel like I'm doing multiple dance moves to this?!

In New Jack, unless you count the ballads and the songs that had a smoother soul flavor, none of the NJS dance songs I consider "midtempo".

SWV and Mary J. were the ones who blurred NJS and what became "hip-hop soul". For the most part, I wouldn't even put them in the group of Guy, Bobby Brown, and 'em. NJS died around '92 or '93, around the time these two came on the scene.

But I could still dance to SWV and Mary J. because their early music had some good beats. When My Life came out and later New Beginning, it was like "hmm, I can groove to it but I can't get down to it".

It's almost the same tempo as Humpin' Around.

[Edited 8/24/10 7:08am]

EXACTLY!

mrjun18 said:

TonyVanDam said:

Sean Combs (with MJB as his muse) invented hip-hop soul.

Sean simply took Dr.Dre's idea of playing hip-hop beats at the downtempo of 95 BPM. Instead of MJB rapping, she r&b singing.

SWV's story is interesting because I always thought of them as a hybrid bridge between En Vogue & TLC. And SWV's main producer Brian Alexander Morgan was a very underrated songwriter. It's a shame that he didn't blow up in popularity as a solo artist instead of Sean Combs.

I wouldn't say he and Mary "invented" hip-hop soul, but more-so innovated it and popularized and took it to where it was never taken before....

Cuase If you listen to songs like Soul II Soul's 'Back to Life' or En Vogue's 'Hold On' and other examples that came out before Whats The 411?, and how hard them drums were hitting on them beats, you really can't call that new jack, but call it hip-hop soul.

So IMO although Mary is argubly my fav female artist 90's to present, she never really "invented" hiphopsoul... but innovated it and popularized it. With that said she is still the queen of hiphop soul no mater what.

Just like how ppl say Maxwell and D'Angelo invented neo-soul, when they really weren't the first ones to really "do it", but sure did popularize it and innovate it.

As for New Jack dying out, I'd say 1993 was the last full year NJS was in effect.

If we can be frank about who possibly "invented" it, go back to the '80s and hear these collaborations:

1983 (Cameo and Grandmaster Flash - "She's Strange")

1984 (Chaka Khan and Melle Mel - "I Feel for You"; also one of the first examples of sampling from a song - Stevie's "Fingertips", which made his own appearance on the track even more significant)

1985 (Rene & Angela and Kurtis Blow - "Save Your Love (For #1)")

I think Sarah Dash also had a track with a rapper. Chaka then did "(Krush Groove) Can't Stop the Street" and even appeared in the film "Krush Groove" singing the song and that movie was one of the first to be based on hip-hop. "Ain't Nobody" was featured in a memorable segment of "Breakin'".

If anything, even though Cameo and Rene & Angela had brought rappers into their songs. Arif Mardin's incredible mixture of hip-hop, soul, and electro funk for Chaka's mid-1980s works, I say that they're the "inventors". No one was able to marry those genres the way they did.

What Soul II Soul and them did was bring in what was considered the hip-hop of the day with the soul of the '60s and '70s. They didn't do samples like Puffy later did.

What's the 411 is the best example of hip-hop soul to me, because, it didn't feature samples, it had good songs, and best of all you can dance to it. "411" AND "It's About Time" (SWV's album) were the best examples of early hip-hop soul following the successes of Soul II Soul and En Vogue (who also had hip-hop beats with their pop-soul vocalizing).

[Edited 8/24/10 12:05pm]

Timmy84 said:

mrjun18 said:

I wouldn't say he and Mary "invented" hip-hop soul, but more-so innovated it and popularized and took it to where it was never taken before....

Cuase If you listen to songs like Soul II Soul's 'Back to Life' or En Vogue's 'Hold On' and other examples that came out before Whats The 411?, and how hard them drums were hitting on them beats, you really can't call that new jack, but call it hip-hop soul.

So IMO although Mary is argubly my fav female artist 90's to present, she never really "invented" hiphopsoul... but innovated it and popularized it. With that said she is still the queen of hiphop soul no mater what.

Just like how ppl say Maxwell and D'Angelo invented neo-soul, when they really weren't the first ones to really "do it", but sure did popularize it and innovate it.

As for New Jack dying out, I'd say 1993 was the last full year NJS was in effect.

If we can be frank about who possibly "invented" it, go back to the '80s and hear these collaborations:

1983 (Cameo and Grandmaster Flash - "She's Strange")

1984 (Chaka Khan and Melle Mel - "I Feel for You"; also one of the first examples of sampling from a song - Stevie's "Fingertips", which made his own appearance on the track even more significant)

1985 (Rene & Angela and Kurtis Blow - "Save Your Love (For #1)")

I think Sarah Dash also had a track with a rapper. Chaka then did "(Krush Groove) Can't Stop the Street" and even appeared in the film "Krush Groove" singing the song and that movie was one of the first to be based on hip-hop. "Ain't Nobody" was featured in a memorable segment of "Breakin'".

If anything, even though Cameo and Rene & Angela had brought rappers into their songs. Arif Mardin's incredible mixture of hip-hop, soul, and electro funk for Chaka's mid-1980s works, I say that they're the "inventors". No one was able to marry those genres the way they did.

What Soul II Soul and them did was bring in what was considered the hip-hop of the day with the soul of the '60s and '70s. They didn't do samples like Puffy later did.

What's the 411 is the best example of hip-hop soul to me, because, it didn't feature samples, it had good songs, and best of all you can dance to it. "411" AND "It's About Time" (SWV's album) were the best examples of early hip-hop soul following the successes of Soul II Soul and En Vogue (who also had hip-hop beats with their pop-soul vocalizing).

[Edited 8/24/10 12:05pm]

totally agree right here. thats what im talmbout we see eye to eye.

and i toally agree... "whats the 411" is like the bible of hiphop soul albums.

mrjun18 said:

Timmy84 said:

If we can be frank about who possibly "invented" it, go back to the '80s and hear these collaborations:

1983 (Cameo and Grandmaster Flash - "She's Strange")

1984 (Chaka Khan and Melle Mel - "I Feel for You"; also one of the first examples of sampling from a song - Stevie's "Fingertips", which made his own appearance on the track even more significant)

1985 (Rene & Angela and Kurtis Blow - "Save Your Love (For #1)")

I think Sarah Dash also had a track with a rapper. Chaka then did "(Krush Groove) Can't Stop the Street" and even appeared in the film "Krush Groove" singing the song and that movie was one of the first to be based on hip-hop. "Ain't Nobody" was featured in a memorable segment of "Breakin'".

If anything, even though Cameo and Rene & Angela had brought rappers into their songs. Arif Mardin's incredible mixture of hip-hop, soul, and electro funk for Chaka's mid-1980s works, I say that they're the "inventors". No one was able to marry those genres the way they did.

What Soul II Soul and them did was bring in what was considered the hip-hop of the day with the soul of the '60s and '70s. They didn't do samples like Puffy later did.

What's the 411 is the best example of hip-hop soul to me, because, it didn't feature samples, it had good songs, and best of all you can dance to it. "411" AND "It's About Time" (SWV's album) were the best examples of early hip-hop soul following the successes of Soul II Soul and En Vogue (who also had hip-hop beats with their pop-soul vocalizing).

[Edited 8/24/10 12:05pm]

totally agree right here. thats what im talmbout we see eye to eye.

and i toally agree... "whats the 411" is like the bible of hiphop soul albums.

Exactly.

Production wise I'll the 2nd one. Vocally, I'll take Coco's vocal from the 1st.

If I recall correctly their first record didn't have any bad songs on it. One of my favorites from that era. Coco has one of the most distinctive voices to come out of the 90's.

I love the use of the Human Nature sample in the remix and Nas' "It Ain't Hard To Tell." Some of the best use of that track.

Yo, anybody notice the huge difference in their image between the two videos. WOW:-)

[Edited 8/24/10 12:48pm]

Musicslave said:

Production wise I'll the 2nd one. Vocally, I'll take Coco's vocal from the 1st.

If I recall correctly their first record didn't have any bad songs on it. One of my favorites from that era. Coco has one of the most distinctive voices to come out of the 90's.

I love the use of the Human Nature sample in the remix and Nas' "It Ain't Hard To Tell." Some of the best use of that track.

Yo, anybody notice huge difference in their image between the two videos. WOW:-)

YEP!

Hey I didn't realize how horny they were on that first record. They sure were some young and horny chicks back then. Just revisited "It's About Time" on YT. I still love it!

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

SWV's main producer Brian Alexander Morgan was a very underrated songwriter. It's a shame that he didn't blow up in popularity as a solo artist instead of Sean Combs.

Perfectly stated! Brian is a gifted, gifted dude. He had melodic hits flowing as a teenager - and he really understood vocal arrangements. He had a album shelved (I believe the group was to be called Cache) that would have been big IMO in the late 80's.

...Any and all please seek out his work on a track called "Back Home" w/ the late Wayman Tisdale.

Link to Back Home http://www.amazon.com/Pow...B000001A9U

Them and Boys 2 Men just died.

It is true, Back to Life and Hold On sounded very different from the 80's new jack sound Rhythm Nation, Forever Your Girl, Karyn White's work and so on still had in the late 80's/early 90's

If we can be frank about who possibly "invented" it, go back to the '80s and hear these collaborations:

1983 (Cameo and Grandmaster Flash - "She's Strange")

1984 (Chaka Khan and Melle Mel - "I Feel for You"; also one of the first examples of sampling from a song - Stevie's "Fingertips", which made his own appearance on the track even more significant)

1985 (Rene & Angela and Kurtis Blow - "Save Your Love (For #1)")

I think Sarah Dash also had a track with a rapper. Chaka then did "(Krush Groove) Can't Stop the Street" and even appeared in the film "Krush Groove" singing the song and that movie was one of the first to be based on hip-hop. "Ain't Nobody" was featured in a memorable segment of "Breakin'".

If anything, even though Cameo and Rene & Angela had brought rappers into their songs. Arif Mardin's incredible mixture of hip-hop, soul, and electro funk for Chaka's mid-1980s works, I say that they're the "inventors". No one was able to marry those genres the way they did.

What Soul II Soul and them did was bring in what was considered the hip-hop of the day with the soul of the '60s and '70s. They didn't do samples like Puffy later did.

What's the 411 is the best example of hip-hop soul to me, because, it didn't feature samples, it had good songs, and best of all you can dance to it. "411" AND "It's About Time" (SWV's album) were the best examples of early hip-hop soul following the successes of Soul II Soul and En Vogue (who also had hip-hop beats with their pop-soul vocalizing).

[Edited 8/24/10 12:05pm]

Preach Timmy!

I would add that Lakeside, Ozone & Teena Marie were rapping soulfully in 1981 on Fantastic Voyage, Gigolette & Square Biz albeit at a much higher BPM.

I would add to your `83 list - The Jonzun Crew for Space Cowboy. ...In `84 - even though the chourus was more chanted than sung - I think Freinds by Whodini showed you could have a hook on top of hip-hop beats. Even more soulful was Hey DJ by Malcolm McClaren & the World Famous Supreme Team. Even New Edition was rapping in `84 on Kinda Girls We Like.

bobsteezy said:

If we can be frank about who possibly "invented" it, go back to the '80s and hear these collaborations:

1983 (Cameo and Grandmaster Flash - "She's Strange")

1984 (Chaka Khan and Melle Mel - "I Feel for You"; also one of the first examples of sampling from a song - Stevie's "Fingertips", which made his own appearance on the track even more significant)

1985 (Rene & Angela and Kurtis Blow - "Save Your Love (For #1)")

I think Sarah Dash also had a track with a rapper. Chaka then did "(Krush Groove) Can't Stop the Street" and even appeared in the film "Krush Groove" singing the song and that movie was one of the first to be based on hip-hop. "Ain't Nobody" was featured in a memorable segment of "Breakin'".

If anything, even though Cameo and Rene & Angela had brought rappers into their songs. Arif Mardin's incredible mixture of hip-hop, soul, and electro funk for Chaka's mid-1980s works, I say that they're the "inventors". No one was able to marry those genres the way they did.

What Soul II Soul and them did was bring in what was considered the hip-hop of the day with the soul of the '60s and '70s. They didn't do samples like Puffy later did.

What's the 411 is the best example of hip-hop soul to me, because, it didn't feature samples, it had good songs, and best of all you can dance to it. "411" AND "It's About Time" (SWV's album) were the best examples of early hip-hop soul following the successes of Soul II Soul and En Vogue (who also had hip-hop beats with their pop-soul vocalizing).

[Edited 8/24/10 12:05pm]

Preach Timmy!

I would add that Lakeside, Ozone & Teena Marie were rapping soulfully in 1981 on Fantastic Voyage, Gigolette & Square Biz albeit at a much higher BPM.

I would add to your `83 list - The Jonzun Crew for Space Cowboy. ...In `84 - even though the chourus was more chanted than sung - I think Freinds by Whodini showed you could have a hook on top of hip-hop beats. Even more soulful was Hey DJ by Malcolm McClaren & the World Famous Supreme Team. Even New Edition was rapping in `84 on Kinda Girls We Like.

Yep. You're exactly right.

alphastreet said:

It is true, Back to Life and Hold On sounded very different from the 80's new jack sound Rhythm Nation, Forever Your Girl, Karyn White's work and so on still had in the late 80's/early 90's

Exactly...when "hold on" first hit the airwaves......I had never heard a girl or girl group sing on a beat like that before, especailly since all the new jack tracks that were currently out at that time, did not have such a distinct beat like 'hold on'.....the drums were hitting hard one that beat.

....and of course 'back to life' with that drum pattern used on various hiphop tracks.

i remember it was early-mid 1990, and songs like 'escapade', 'rub u the right way', 'poison' 'feels good' etc. were all out...and 'hold on' sounded NOTHING like them songs. lol. very unique.

mrjun18 said:

alphastreet said:

It is true, Back to Life and Hold On sounded very different from the 80's new jack sound Rhythm Nation, Forever Your Girl, Karyn White's work and so on still had in the late 80's/early 90's

Exactly...when "hold on" first hit the airwaves......I had never heard a girl or girl group sing on a beat like that before, especailly since all the new jack tracks that were currently out at that time, did not have such a distinct beat like 'hold on'.....the drums were hitting hard one that beat.

....and of course 'back to life' with that drum pattern used on various hiphop tracks.

i remember it was early-mid 1990, and songs like 'escapade', 'rub u the right way', 'poison' 'feels good' etc. were all out...and 'hold on' sounded NOTHING like them songs. lol. very unique.

even though I looove all those new jack swing sounds, they are contemporary and you can tell exactly which year they are from. Even some of Janet's RN remixes were trying to borrow the sounds of the new styles, which also worked well for her.

there's a song on New Edition's Home Again, Oh Yeah It Feels So Good and even a Queen Pen song sometime in 2007 with a beat that is so similar to Hold On, unless all 3 sampled from somewhere, James Brown most likely as they did with Never Gonna Get It.

that back to life beat was used all throughout the 90's on different styles, such a classic. Maybe they are like what Chic did in the late 70's.

the remix is 10X better, i love that song.

TonyVanDam said:

My vote goes to the original version.

THIS is the genre New Jack Swing that we're talking about. Right Here is one of those classics from that genre that got overshadow by the downtempo Right Here (Human Nature Mix).

Yeah I prefer the original too.

Human Nature shouldn't be mixed within ANY remix, that song stands on its own.

The intro on the album version of "Right Here" kills me a little:

"AYO T.-roni I really like this guy but he just too blind ta cee!"

"F'real Coko? Dag. Whatchu finna do boudat?"

"*smacks lips* Shoo' I dunno"

"Sing it to 'im, Coko"

"Yeah well Ima do dat. IMA LET HIM KNOW that I ain't goin' nowhere. And my lovin' is gonna be right hea."

"Really doe."

"WARD."

Forgive me if it's not a perfect transcription.

Also I am floored by the Side A sequence of It's About Time (at least, the vinyl edition)

Cinnie said:

The intro on the album version of "Right Here" kills me a little:

"AYO T.-roni I really like this guy but he just too blind ta cee!"

"F'real Coko? Dag. Whatchu finna do boudat?"

"*smacks lips* Shoo' I dunno"

"Sing it to 'im, Coko"

"Yeah well Ima do dat. IMA LET HIM KNOW that I ain't goin' nowhere. And my lovin' is gonna be right hea."

"Really doe."

"WARD."

Forgive me if it's not a perfect transcription.

hahahahahahaha. Love it!

The Human Nature version. The original blows.