We can't just put the race sickness on one man, it's infected each and everyone of us americans. I often, often see black folks who you can just tell have been brainwashed into thinking they are the scum of the earth, it shows in everything they do. Indians too. I seriously wonder if we will ever, ever be able to come to terms with such a sick, deep sense of self-contempt. Paul Mooney's great bio goes into great depth about lots of this stuff and he always credits his grandmother with loving him so much what anyone else said didn't matter, not everyone has someone like that. I did and I still feel self hatred, true, intense self-hatred. If I feel it, I know the rest of us do too. It's a very complex story. We all have this love/hate with race in this country. As talented as Elvis was, there are still rumours that as much as he admired black culture he was a racist (which I do not believe). You throw in the concept of genius in and it all equals a very different if not warped personality when it comes to someone like Michael. What we see in him and others is a mirror of ourselves. It is always that way with our heroes.

bboy87 said:

Reel said:

Like I said in the above statement... black people feel different about Michael. I personally belive that he was definitely trying to escape his blackness. I have seen no celebrity chistle their nose down to a nub. Sorry, not Janet...Not Beyonce...Nobody. Nor have I seen any black person put a cleft in their chin, and chistle out their jawbone...and do god knows whatelse he did. As I mentioned earlier, my opinion is based on more than just the "skin lightening". The adopted kids with no evidence of any sort of biological ties to Africa....please. Nobody can make me believe differently, just like I'm sure that nobody can change your opinion on the matter.

Well, that's your opinion...

It sure is Beeee Boyyyy!

mozfonky said:

We can't just put the race sickness on one man, it's infected each and everyone of us americans. I often, often see black folks who you can just tell have been brainwashed into thinking they are the scum of the earth, it shows in everything they do. Indians too. I seriously wonder if we will ever, ever be able to come to terms with such a sick, deep sense of self-contempt. Paul Mooney's great bio goes into great depth about lots of this stuff and he always credits his grandmother with loving him so much what anyone else said didn't matter, not everyone has someone like that. I did and I still feel self hatred, true, intense self-hatred. If I feel it, I know the rest of us do too. It's a very complex story. We all have this love/hate with race in this country. As talented as Elvis was, there are still rumours that as much as he admired black culture he was a racist (which I do not believe). You throw in the concept of genius in and it all equals a very different if not warped personality when it comes to someone like Michael. What we see in him and others is a mirror of ourselves. It is always that way with our heroes.

Mozfonky,

What you are saying is true for a great many black folks in the United States. For years and years they are told that they are nothing, have nothing to give society, are animals, are not intelligent etc. After awhile, that begins to rub off on some people. However....I can honestly say that I HAVE NEVER FELT ANY FORM OF SELF HATRED in regards to my race and my feelings of being inferior to anybody.

A lot was invested in me and my education early on. I have my weaknesses (ie. Math), but I have always felt that I have EVERYTHING to give..in this society. I went to the best high schools and colleges in the state and in the country both predominantely white schools, as well as black ones. One college that I attended was a historically black college...I think this is where I learned a great deal of pride in my people as a whole. Everything that I already knew and believed about myself and black people in general was re-affirmed at this school. I went to school with children of black mayors, celebrities, artists etc. My Black teachers wrote the books that they taught us with.

So I say that to say that not all of us feel that way. Not all of us are nurtured to feel bad about ourselves and our race. But what you spoke about is true for a great many of our brothers and sisters. One can see evidence of this when they look at black on black crime. Black folks "living for today" with absolutely no thought for tomorrow. Many of that nonsense is due to lack of belief in one's self, and feelings of self-worthlessness.

As far as you continuing to feel self-hatred. The only thing I can tell you, is that the more you invest in yourself, and your talents.....the more you nurture your abilities...the more you get a real intense look at the lives of the people that you may feel are better than you....the less and less you will feel self-hatred. Perhaps even enrolling for 1 semester in a college and taking an African American studies class will be enough to boost your confidence in your race, and the abilities of your people (you don't have to be formally enrolled in college to take a college course).

MJ was born during a time where there was virtually nothing of substance for black people in Indiana, or in America for that much. Civil rights movement hadn't even kicked off. Michael was a product of Joe...who was a deeply damaged man. Im sure MJ heard ongoing negative things about the abilities of blacks and the superiority of whites.

You even had Oprah get on Barbara Walters and proclaim that she "wanted to be white" when she was younger. This sort of thing effects many of our people...regardless of social status.

*facepalm*

I wanted to say something but this is kinda disparaging as me being a black man that has constantly seen people diss Michael because they never understood why he suddenly change his color, why he was slow to explain what he had, and how he may have been brainwashed, I remember thinking the same way Reel was thinking at 11, but as I began to learn more about Michael, I don't see someone who was brainwashed, I saw a man who was trying to find himself and we were bitching about the man because he didn't do what "black folks do".

I know how a talk of race can turn into some compassionate battle cry but really was this discussion necessary?

Can it ever be about what the man left behind for us instead of worrying if he "hated" being who he was?

Seriously can it?

mimi07 said:

[img:$uid]http://www.soulculture.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/michael-jackson-by-arno-bani1.jpg[/img:$uid]

Michael Jackson by Marsha Ambrosius

June 25, 2010 by SoulCulture

learned too much from Michael Jackson. Having the opportunity to be both observer and writer/vocal producer was too rich to put into so many words. Watching his breathing techniques, the vocal scales he would go over and over again before even stepping in the vocal booth at the studio every day we recorded. He was perfect. He was just so giving. He gave his all.

That would be the same thing that inspires me about him. He cared so much for everything and everyone. He gave his all in anything he did. His legacy is left for us to study. It’s evidence of how GREAT he was and always will be.

I wrote “I Want You To Stay” for Michael Jackson a few weeks before he passed away. I was going to be in London the week the tour started. A few weeks prior to the tour, I flew over to London and during my stay, I wrote it in my mother’s house on her piano.

I did a studio version which will be on Late Nights & Early Mornings – Michael Jackson’s influence can be seen and heard in not just the music I make but in most artists. I can’t help it! No Pun. Why not strive for greatness?

[Ed's note: Click here to download our live recording of Marsha Ambrosius' song for MJ, "I Want You To Stay" - performed live at London's Jazz Cafe in July 2009.

Marsha Ambrosius Recalls Meeting Michael Jackson

[img:$uid]http://www.soulculture.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/michael-jackson-marsha-ambrosius.jpg[/img:$uid]

I'm nervous. Excited but very nervous. It's a mild afternoon in New York City and I'm walking towards The Hit Factory studio to meet Mr.Michael Jackson. Today would be the first day recording his vocals on a song I wrote. A song called "Butterflies". Oblivious to pedestrians and loud traffic. Tuning out any sound interrupting my inner voice screaming "Calm down!!! You deserve this!!! You're worth this!!!".

I walk through the glass doors leading to a front desk. I was told to give my full name and ID was required. As expected, I was. A doorman walked me to the key operated elevator and was escorted to his floor. "Michael Jackson & Friends" was written on a white piece of A4 paper taped to the door. I was led inside.

My heart is literally beating out of my chest and I'm two breaths short of a panic attack. All I recall is the sound of a grand piano playing a harmonic scale, someone singing and seeing who that voice was coming from eye to eye.

It was him. The King of Pop. The Greatest Entertainer of All Time. From the live room, he smiled at me and threw up a peace sign. Continued to warm up his vocals as I stood in awe and then made his way to me. He said my first name and gave me a welcoming embrace. "Thank you," he said.

No Michael! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SoulCulture TV: Click here to find out how Marsha came to work with MJ when he heard her song "Butterflies". [She talks about Michael around the 6-minute mark]

http://www.soulculture.co...ment-40747

[Edited 7/9/10 19:34pm]

I see people going deep into discussion about something else miss this... back to this please?

Timmy84 said:

*facepalm*

I wanted to say something but this is kinda disparaging as me being a black man that has constantly seen people diss Michael because they never understood why he suddenly change his color, why he was slow to explain what he had, and how he may have been brainwashed, I remember thinking the same way Reel was thinking at 11, but as I began to learn more about Michael, I don't see someone who was brainwashed, I saw a man who was trying to find himself and we were bitching about the man because he didn't do what "black folks do".

I know how a talk of race can turn into some compassionate battle cry but really was this discussion necessary?

Can it ever be about what the man left behind for us instead of worrying if he "hated" being who he was?

Seriously can it?

Timmy,

It can be whatever you want it to be. As for myself, I've never been to only embrace the good, or the bad for that matter in somebody. I see a whole human being, and because of this...I speak on everything regarding the individual. I don't think that anybody in the world has a strong leg to stand on if they try to dispute Michael's talent. However the issue of Michael's various surgical escapades will be discussed for an eternity. Are you ready for that? You will not be able to guilt (and I'm not saying that you are) people into not discussing the obvious.

This alternate remix is funky as chitlins.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say of all the solo MJ tracks on Motown, "We're Almost There" was probably his greatest song with Motown.

mimi07 said:

[img:$uid]http://www.soulculture.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/michael-jackson-by-arno-bani1.jpg[/img:$uid]

Michael Jackson by Marsha Ambrosius

June 25, 2010 by SoulCulture

learned too much from Michael Jackson. Having the opportunity to be both observer and writer/vocal producer was too rich to put into so many words. Watching his breathing techniques, the vocal scales he would go over and over again before even stepping in the vocal booth at the studio every day we recorded. He was perfect. He was just so giving. He gave his all.

That would be the same thing that inspires me about him. He cared so much for everything and everyone. He gave his all in anything he did. His legacy is left for us to study. It’s evidence of how GREAT he was and always will be.

I wrote “I Want You To Stay” for Michael Jackson a few weeks before he passed away. I was going to be in London the week the tour started. A few weeks prior to the tour, I flew over to London and during my stay, I wrote it in my mother’s house on her piano.

I did a studio version which will be on Late Nights & Early Mornings – Michael Jackson’s influence can be seen and heard in not just the music I make but in most artists. I can’t help it! No Pun. Why not strive for greatness?

[Ed's note: Click here to download our live recording of Marsha Ambrosius' song for MJ, "I Want You To Stay" - performed live at London's Jazz Cafe in July 2009.

Marsha Ambrosius Recalls Meeting Michael Jackson

[img:$uid]http://www.soulculture.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/michael-jackson-marsha-ambrosius.jpg[/img:$uid]

I'm nervous. Excited but very nervous. It's a mild afternoon in New York City and I'm walking towards The Hit Factory studio to meet Mr.Michael Jackson. Today would be the first day recording his vocals on a song I wrote. A song called "Butterflies". Oblivious to pedestrians and loud traffic. Tuning out any sound interrupting my inner voice screaming "Calm down!!! You deserve this!!! You're worth this!!!".

I walk through the glass doors leading to a front desk. I was told to give my full name and ID was required. As expected, I was. A doorman walked me to the key operated elevator and was escorted to his floor. "Michael Jackson & Friends" was written on a white piece of A4 paper taped to the door. I was led inside.

My heart is literally beating out of my chest and I'm two breaths short of a panic attack. All I recall is the sound of a grand piano playing a harmonic scale, someone singing and seeing who that voice was coming from eye to eye.

It was him. The King of Pop. The Greatest Entertainer of All Time. From the live room, he smiled at me and threw up a peace sign. Continued to warm up his vocals as I stood in awe and then made his way to me. He said my first name and gave me a welcoming embrace. "Thank you," he said.

No Michael! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SoulCulture TV: Click here to find out how Marsha came to work with MJ when he heard her song "Butterflies". [She talks about Michael around the 6-minute mark]

http://www.soulculture.co...ment-40747

[Edited 7/9/10 19:34pm]

Reel said:

MOL said:

The same black people/community who constantly praise Joe Jackson for his supposed "Black Old School discipline" is the same which despises Michael.

This does speak volums on some communities' values, doesn't it?

Exactly, whom- apart from old Black School Joe- do Black people like?

I know I will be called a racist because anything not so positive said about blacks will immediately be dismissed as racism, but the truth is that I'm not, by any means, a racist. It's just the truth.

The more that you type...the more I realize just how unstable you are. That's one big fat lie that you invented in your crazy mind for whatever reasons. You just "make shit up" as you go huh?

Nope, not going to call you a racist....I'm going to tell you are not dealing with a full deck.

Are you talking about yourself? Because no one has invented more lies than you. And, shall you know, that is (what you do), indeed, a symptom of an unstable mentality.

The more you type Reel, the more you bury yourself. Just give it up.

Timmy84 said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say of all the solo MJ tracks on Motown, "We're Almost There" was probably his greatest song with Motown.

Call On Me, the single mix of Take Me Back, Up Again, and Music And Me would all like a word with you

bboy87 said:

Timmy84 said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say of all the solo MJ tracks on Motown, "We're Almost There" was probably his greatest song with Motown.

Call On Me, the single mix of Take Me Back, Up Again, and Music And Me would all like a word with you

"Up Again" I can see... I love the album version of "Take Me Back"... but seriously the alternate remix of "We're Almost There" is the shit man. How about "Maria"? I LOVE THAT ONE!

^^

Classic Motown of course.

I can see what you mean by the best MJ Motown track, man lol

mimi07 said:

[img:$uid]http://www.soulculture.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/michael-jackson-by-arno-bani1.jpg[/img:$uid]

Michael Jackson by Marsha Ambrosius

June 25, 2010 by SoulCulture

learned too much from Michael Jackson. Having the opportunity to be both observer and writer/vocal producer was too rich to put into so many words. Watching his breathing techniques, the vocal scales he would go over and over again before even stepping in the vocal booth at the studio every day we recorded. He was perfect. He was just so giving. He gave his all.

That would be the same thing that inspires me about him. He cared so much for everything and everyone. He gave his all in anything he did. His legacy is left for us to study. It’s evidence of how GREAT he was and always will be.

I wrote “I Want You To Stay” for Michael Jackson a few weeks before he passed away. I was going to be in London the week the tour started. A few weeks prior to the tour, I flew over to London and during my stay, I wrote it in my mother’s house on her piano.

I did a studio version which will be on Late Nights & Early Mornings – Michael Jackson’s influence can be seen and heard in not just the music I make but in most artists. I can’t help it! No Pun. Why not strive for greatness?

[Ed's note: Click here to download our live recording of Marsha Ambrosius' song for MJ, "I Want You To Stay" - performed live at London's Jazz Cafe in July 2009.

Marsha Ambrosius Recalls Meeting Michael Jackson

[img:$uid]http://www.soulculture.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/michael-jackson-marsha-ambrosius.jpg[/img:$uid]

I'm nervous. Excited but very nervous. It's a mild afternoon in New York City and I'm walking towards The Hit Factory studio to meet Mr.Michael Jackson. Today would be the first day recording his vocals on a song I wrote. A song called "Butterflies". Oblivious to pedestrians and loud traffic. Tuning out any sound interrupting my inner voice screaming "Calm down!!! You deserve this!!! You're worth this!!!".

I walk through the glass doors leading to a front desk. I was told to give my full name and ID was required. As expected, I was. A doorman walked me to the key operated elevator and was escorted to his floor. "Michael Jackson & Friends" was written on a white piece of A4 paper taped to the door. I was led inside.

My heart is literally beating out of my chest and I'm two breaths short of a panic attack. All I recall is the sound of a grand piano playing a harmonic scale, someone singing and seeing who that voice was coming from eye to eye.

It was him. The King of Pop. The Greatest Entertainer of All Time. From the live room, he smiled at me and threw up a peace sign. Continued to warm up his vocals as I stood in awe and then made his way to me. He said my first name and gave me a welcoming embrace. "Thank you," he said.

No Michael! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SoulCulture TV: Click here to find out how Marsha came to work with MJ when he heard her song "Butterflies". [She talks about Michael around the 6-minute mark]

http://www.soulculture.co...ment-40747

[Edited 7/9/10 19:34pm]

Thank you posting this ......

Timmy84 said:

^^

Classic Motown of course.

I can see what you mean by the best MJ Motown track, man lol

I love this song timmy

seeingvoices12 said:

Timmy84 said:

^^

Classic Motown of course.

I can see what you mean by the best MJ Motown track, man lol

I love this song timmy

Reel said:

mozfonky said:

We can't just put the race sickness on one man, it's infected each and everyone of us americans. I often, often see black folks who you can just tell have been brainwashed into thinking they are the scum of the earth, it shows in everything they do. Indians too. I seriously wonder if we will ever, ever be able to come to terms with such a sick, deep sense of self-contempt. Paul Mooney's great bio goes into great depth about lots of this stuff and he always credits his grandmother with loving him so much what anyone else said didn't matter, not everyone has someone like that. I did and I still feel self hatred, true, intense self-hatred. If I feel it, I know the rest of us do too. It's a very complex story. We all have this love/hate with race in this country. As talented as Elvis was, there are still rumours that as much as he admired black culture he was a racist (which I do not believe). You throw in the concept of genius in and it all equals a very different if not warped personality when it comes to someone like Michael. What we see in him and others is a mirror of ourselves. It is always that way with our heroes.

Mozfonky,

What you are saying is true for a great many black folks in the United States. For years and years they are told that they are nothing, have nothing to give society, are animals, are not intelligent etc. After awhile, that begins to rub off on some people. However....I can honestly say that I HAVE NEVER FELT ANY FORM OF SELF HATRED in regards to my race and my feelings of being inferior to anybody.

A lot was invested in me and my education early on. I have my weaknesses (ie. Math), but I have always felt that I have EVERYTHING to give..in this society. I went to the best high schools and colleges in the state and in the country both predominantely white schools, as well as black ones. One college that I attended was a historically black college...I think this is where I learned a great deal of pride in my people as a whole. Everything that I already knew and believed about myself and black people in general was re-affirmed at this school. I went to school with children of black mayors, celebrities, artists etc. My Black teachers wrote the books that they taught us with.

So I say that to say that not all of us feel that way. Not all of us are nurtured to feel bad about ourselves and our race. But what you spoke about is true for a great many of our brothers and sisters. One can see evidence of this when they look at black on black crime. Black folks "living for today" with absolutely no thought for tomorrow. Many of that nonsense is due to lack of belief in one's self, and feelings of self-worthlessness.

As far as you continuing to feel self-hatred. The only thing I can tell you, is that the more you invest in yourself, and your talents.....the more you nurture your abilities...the more you get a real intense look at the lives of the people that you may feel are better than you....the less and less you will feel self-hatred. Perhaps even enrolling for 1 semester in a college and taking an African American studies class will be enough to boost your confidence in your race, and the abilities of your people (you don't have to be formally enrolled in college to take a college course).

MJ was born during a time where there was virtually nothing of substance for black people in Indiana, or in America for that much. Civil rights movement hadn't even kicked off. Michael was a product of Joe...who was a deeply damaged man. Im sure MJ heard ongoing negative things about the abilities of blacks and the superiority of whites.

You even had Oprah get on Barbara Walters and proclaim that she "wanted to be white" when she was younger. This sort of thing effects many of our people...regardless of social status.

Now, I understand where does your mental unstability come from.

Dismiss it as racism, if you will.

Billboard 200:

45 JACKSON*MICHAEL NUMBER ONES 10,001 0 9,981 4,294,953

54 JACKSON*MICHAEL THRILLER 7,837 39 5,635 5,829,685

60 JACKSON*MICHAEL ESSENTIAL MICHAEL JACKSON 6,929 -17 8,380 1,673,727

72 JACKSON*MICHAEL MICHAEL JACKSON'S THIS IS IT 5,829 11 5,274 1,583,809

131 JACKSON*MICHAEL BAD 4,105 69 2,423 1,588,584

155 JACKSON*MICHAEL DANGEROUS 3,571 86 1,925 582,964

165 JACKSON*MICHAEL OFF THE WALL 3,336 85 1,799 2,060,340

Notes: He logged in 7 albums in the billboard 200 this week, up from 4 last week. His total sales have also increased 20% from 43k to 54k. This week, he's moved up from #18 to #16 on the soundscan list tracked album sales since 1991. He was #47 on the list before he passed.

Timmy84 said:

bboy87 said:

Call On Me, the single mix of Take Me Back, Up Again, and Music And Me would all like a word with you

"Up Again" I can see... I love the album version of "Take Me Back"... but seriously the alternate remix of "We're Almost There" is the shit man. How about "Maria"? I LOVE THAT ONE!

Yeah I love all of those cuts as well. We really need to turn this from the best songs to the best Motown solo album...My vote will have to definitely be Forever, Michael.

Timmy84 said:

*facepalm*

I wanted to say something but this is kinda disparaging as me being a black man that has constantly seen people diss Michael because they never understood why he suddenly change his color, why he was slow to explain what he had, and how he may have been brainwashed, I remember thinking the same way Reel was thinking at 11, but as I began to learn more about Michael, I don't see someone who was brainwashed, I saw a man who was trying to find himself and we were bitching about the man because he didn't do what "black folks do".

I know how a talk of race can turn into some compassionate battle cry but really was this discussion necessary?

Can it ever be about what the man left behind for us instead of worrying if he "hated" being who he was?

Seriously can it?

I also thought the way Reel did when I was 11 years old, but when you read things (from Michael's words as oppose to the tabloids'), you understand his views about what race means in general. He didn't believe in defining his race according to how the majority defined it, and IN MY OPINION, that's a GOOD thing. One should never let others limit your race to mere definitions because then you're limiting yourself. Our conscious habit always seems to prevent us from seeing non-white people as individuals - we always have to tie them to the group they belong to. That goes for blacks, Latinos, Indians, etc. Just look at any minority celebrity. They're rarely seen as individuals before their "group". Was Prince a "typical" black man by how the majority of blacks are defined? Why did he have straight hair? Because, like Michael, he definied himself as a individual rather than have others define him as a group. I think the world just seems to put a different lens on Michael and on everything he does. Heck, with that idiology every white man would be seen as hating his own race if he decides to become a hip hop rapper... or is the issue of race only seen in non-white people?

Timmy84 said:

^^

Classic Motown of course.

I can see what you mean by the best MJ Motown track, man lol

Reel said:

mozfonky said:

We can't just put the race sickness on one man, it's infected each and everyone of us americans. I often, often see black folks who you can just tell have been brainwashed into thinking they are the scum of the earth, it shows in everything they do. Indians too. I seriously wonder if we will ever, ever be able to come to terms with such a sick, deep sense of self-contempt. Paul Mooney's great bio goes into great depth about lots of this stuff and he always credits his grandmother with loving him so much what anyone else said didn't matter, not everyone has someone like that. I did and I still feel self hatred, true, intense self-hatred. If I feel it, I know the rest of us do too. It's a very complex story. We all have this love/hate with race in this country. As talented as Elvis was, there are still rumours that as much as he admired black culture he was a racist (which I do not believe). You throw in the concept of genius in and it all equals a very different if not warped personality when it comes to someone like Michael. What we see in him and others is a mirror of ourselves. It is always that way with our heroes.

Mozfonky,

What you are saying is true for a great many black folks in the United States. For years and years they are told that they are nothing, have nothing to give society, are animals, are not intelligent etc. After awhile, that begins to rub off on some people. However....I can honestly say that I HAVE NEVER FELT ANY FORM OF SELF HATRED in regards to my race and my feelings of being inferior to anybody.

A lot was invested in me and my education early on. I have my weaknesses (ie. Math), but I have always felt that I have EVERYTHING to give..in this society. I went to the best high schools and colleges in the state and in the country both predominantely white schools, as well as black ones. One college that I attended was a historically black college...I think this is where I learned a great deal of pride in my people as a whole. Everything that I already knew and believed about myself and black people in general was re-affirmed at this school. I went to school with children of black mayors, celebrities, artists etc. My Black teachers wrote the books that they taught us with.

So I say that to say that not all of us feel that way. Not all of us are nurtured to feel bad about ourselves and our race. But what you spoke about is true for a great many of our brothers and sisters. One can see evidence of this when they look at black on black crime. Black folks "living for today" with absolutely no thought for tomorrow. Many of that nonsense is due to lack of belief in one's self, and feelings of self-worthlessness.

As far as you continuing to feel self-hatred. The only thing I can tell you, is that the more you invest in yourself, and your talents.....the more you nurture your abilities...the more you get a real intense look at the lives of the people that you may feel are better than you....the less and less you will feel self-hatred. Perhaps even enrolling for 1 semester in a college and taking an African American studies class will be enough to boost your confidence in your race, and the abilities of your people (you don't have to be formally enrolled in college to take a college course).

MJ was born during a time where there was virtually nothing of substance for black people in Indiana, or in America for that much. Civil rights movement hadn't even kicked off. Michael was a product of Joe...who was a deeply damaged man. Im sure MJ heard ongoing negative things about the abilities of blacks and the superiority of whites.

You even had Oprah get on Barbara Walters and proclaim that she "wanted to be white" when she was younger. This sort of thing effects many of our people...regardless of social status.

dear, I am not black, I'm a Native American who has close ties with many black people. I am university educated and education is not the answer for any of it. I don't think you understand (fortunately) what I'm talking about, and of course if I say "all" that doesn't literally mean all but most people fell this stuff. Things happen to all of us what mooney calls our n!#!!$% moment whether it's the Malcolm Little telling a teacher he wants to be a lawyer and having that teacher tell him a N!*%#@ can't be a lawyer or Tiger Woods being tied up to a tree at 5 and being called it. For me, well for Indians it's much more subtle than that and so it's even worse. But the question remains, the scars remain, we grow but the memories are still there. What do we do? And I think it's understandable what Michael went through, understandable and tragic.

Last time I checked this was a thread about Michael Jackson... and on that note:

Yeah I got annoyed that Shake Your Body was called a Jackson 5 song too, when people don't make that distinction it gets on my nerves The discussions here are interesting, but I don't think we should be fighting over this anymore.

I really want the dvd to the Bad tour! Can you imagine amazing this performance would have been in 2009?!

mozfonky said:

Reel said:

Mozfonky,

What you are saying is true for a great many black folks in the United States. For years and years they are told that they are nothing, have nothing to give society, are animals, are not intelligent etc. After awhile, that begins to rub off on some people. However....I can honestly say that I HAVE NEVER FELT ANY FORM OF SELF HATRED in regards to my race and my feelings of being inferior to anybody.

A lot was invested in me and my education early on. I have my weaknesses (ie. Math), but I have always felt that I have EVERYTHING to give..in this society. I went to the best high schools and colleges in the state and in the country both predominantely white schools, as well as black ones. One college that I attended was a historically black college...I think this is where I learned a great deal of pride in my people as a whole. Everything that I already knew and believed about myself and black people in general was re-affirmed at this school. I went to school with children of black mayors, celebrities, artists etc. My Black teachers wrote the books that they taught us with.

So I say that to say that not all of us feel that way. Not all of us are nurtured to feel bad about ourselves and our race. But what you spoke about is true for a great many of our brothers and sisters. One can see evidence of this when they look at black on black crime. Black folks "living for today" with absolutely no thought for tomorrow. Many of that nonsense is due to lack of belief in one's self, and feelings of self-worthlessness.

As far as you continuing to feel self-hatred. The only thing I can tell you, is that the more you invest in yourself, and your talents.....the more you nurture your abilities...the more you get a real intense look at the lives of the people that you may feel are better than you....the less and less you will feel self-hatred. Perhaps even enrolling for 1 semester in a college and taking an African American studies class will be enough to boost your confidence in your race, and the abilities of your people (you don't have to be formally enrolled in college to take a college course).

MJ was born during a time where there was virtually nothing of substance for black people in Indiana, or in America for that much. Civil rights movement hadn't even kicked off. Michael was a product of Joe...who was a deeply damaged man. Im sure MJ heard ongoing negative things about the abilities of blacks and the superiority of whites.

You even had Oprah get on Barbara Walters and proclaim that she "wanted to be white" when she was younger. This sort of thing effects many of our people...regardless of social status.

dear, I am not black, I'm a Native American who has close ties with many black people. I am university educated and education is not the answer for any of it. I don't think you understand (fortunately) what I'm talking about, and of course if I say "all" that doesn't literally mean all but most people fell this stuff. Things happen to all of us what mooney calls our n!#!!$% moment whether it's the Malcolm Little telling a teacher he wants to be a lawyer and having that teacher tell him a N!*%#@ can't be a lawyer or Tiger Woods being tied up to a tree at 5 and being called it. For me, well for Indians it's much more subtle than that and so it's even worse. But the question remains, the scars remain, we grow but the memories are still there. What do we do? And I think it's understandable what Michael went through, understandable and tragic.

Sorry, I misread your post, I thought you were saying that you are black and have self-hate. I don't know the answer for Native Americans dealing with self-hate, as there are different dynamics involved. I don't even know the complete answers in how black people can totally get past it. But I still believe that education on the greatness of "one's own people" goes a long way...and it has helped MANY black people deal with feeling inferior in this society that we live in. Good luck with everything.

Hey....never have i said that I did not "understand" why Michael was the way he was. I have a limited understanding because I don't know him, nor his family personally (and neither does anyone on these boards). However, I can definitely see how situations in his life made him the way he was. Now with that being said....it didn't make it any less painful to watch. And it did not mean that he was incapable of redirecting his own path. It was definitely tragic.

[Edited 7/10/10 12:52pm]

As far as Marsha writing another song for MJ...I can't wait to hear it. I think she did an awesome job with Butterflies. I think that was the last song that I actually liked that MJ sang before his death.