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I still think the best way to release "new" music from MJ is to get the key collaborator/producer involved in the project. If it is Will.I.Am, Quincy, Teddy or whomever, get them involved. At least then the recording will have a touch of authenticity as they would have first hand knowledge where Michael wanted to take the songs.

And get Bruce doing the mix - he knew intimately how to layer and arrange the tracks.

Having people removed from the project is like getting someone who once saw the Mona Lisa to draw their impression of it.

bboy87 said:

While we all know that it is impossible to remain uninfluenced by what goes on around us, media coverage and personal opinions have the potential to shroud facts, and in the minds of some individuals, totally obliterate them.

This is, exactly, why I avoided the news and any mention of that case back then. After what the media did back during 9/11 before the Iraq invasion & during the OJ trial I had more than enough of how sensational the media was/is. I don't understand why it's so hard to just present the news in a matter of factually manner to which I can make my own opinion from it. I know that it all just comes back to money in the end though, as that's all that really matters. I had already seen the documentary back in 2003 so I already knew that family & those allegations were already full of crap. In fact, I remember calling my friend and we both were discussing how that kid was going to be the next 'victim.' She said, the next time we see the program they're going to blur that child's face and she was right.

Either way, due to the complete incompetency of the MSM I have gotten used to doing my own research and learning to find as many sources as possible before I formulate any opinions on the subject. I just don't understand why so many others have to be spoon-fed the same conclusions.

Guess that is what makes us all different.

bboy87 said:

Cinnie said:

Okay, maybe I don't know the back story for the songs in brackets you used to support your points.

Little Susie was originally written in 1979 and was worked on for some time. It was also considered in 1989 for the Decade project (as was Who Is It, Heal The World, Earth Song, his adult versions of I'll Be There and Never Can Say Goodbye, and his covers of Come Together and Strawberry Fields Forever

Dangerous evolved from Streetwalker and originally demoed in 1989. Michael felt it didn't hit hard enough and wasn't "comtemporary" so when Teddy Riley on board, they reworked on the music

Workin' Day And Night was written in 1978 and originally written for Destiny but he decided to keep it for Off The Wall

thanks for sharing, I didn't know some of that

bboy87 said:

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Unholyalliance said:

Something about this statement really bothers me. So much so I even got out of longtime lurk mode and got an account here. Probably because of how grossly inaccurate it is.

It is true that Prince was incorporating rock into his music since he began creating music. While Prince's sound incorporates rock, among many other things, pre-Thriller Prince never struck me as someone whose sound was hard rock or heavy metal. Ever. While you can say Little Red Corvette was the first song that combined pop, rock, funk, and soul (I guess), I can easily counter argue that Beat It was the song that took it one step further by being the first in combining soul, funk, pop, and hard rock/heavy & thrash metal, the latter genres were extremely popular at the time w/a huge portion of the population, and still is.

That's territory I don't think even Prince had explored up until that point. That hard rock/heavy metal outlet is what took Beat It to the next level & gave it the immense cross over appeal, cultural success, & influence that it enjoyed. It, ultimately, took whatever LRC had and blew it out of the water in that respect.

You are right though, Prince didn't need Van Halen to make his music work, but up until that point and even now, as I just stated, Prince had never really crossed over into the hard rock/heavy metal genre(s) as far as I know prior to the release of Thriller. Though, I don't know what kind of ears you possess, but you can CLEARLY hear the Beat It influence in the hard rock sound that Let's Go Crazy possess as opposed to, let's say, Little Red Corvette. Needless to say, this is why I think you are wrong in your statement and the original author was correct.

We don't know if Prince would have went in that direction w/Let's Go Crazy w/o the release of Beat It, but one thing is clear. Hard rock/heavy metal were EXTREMELY popular genres at that time and they were missing in a lot of his pre-Purple Rain work. Maybe he would have went there, maybe he wouldn't have. No point in trying to argue that, because what's done is done and you can't change the past.

Just like how you complain about MJ fans denying Quincy's role in Thriller, I could say the same of you in denying how MJ influenced Prince. It's very interesting indeed...

You're clearly not familiar enough with Prince's work to be able to accurately make this point.

Go back and listen to Prince's debut album "For You" from 1978. The track "I'm Yours" renders your entire argument invalid.

So does "Bambi" from the second album. That song rocks so heavy that even Duff McKagan from Guns N' Roses covered it without having to make it any heavier to fit the type of music he plays.

Prince had been playing guitar since he was a kid, and you think suddenly because Michael made "Beat It" he decided to heavy it up a little bit? As a hardcore fan of both, you're seriously off base.

bboy87 said:

On July 24th I ordered the DVD documentary: the trials of Michael Jackson via the website www.thetrialsofmichaeljackson.com. I received the DVD today and watched it. I enjoyed watching it, as far as you can say that when it comes to watching MJ undergo this nightmare. Either way, I liked seeing the fans be MJ fans and (dislike) watching the press be assholes. For 20 USD I can definitely recommend this DVD.

From their website:
About the Documentary
Try to imagine two filmmakers taking their video cameras in hand to film the hoopla around a celebrity trial... the trial of none other than legendary pop star Michael Jackson. Even though Barry Shaw and Dana Gedrick knew this was no oridnary celebrity trial, it would prove to be far from anything the pair of them had expected to encounter.

For starters, they had not anticipated the fierce extent to which the fans' compassion would influence journalists and media covering the trial, nor had they forseen the extent to which the media's personal feelings and biases would enter into what would be presented to the public. The result was for Barry and Dana to realize that such strong personal feelings on the part of the media all but precluded the hope of presuming innocence.

Try to imagine, as well, that you are a staunch and devoted fan of a man despised by much of the world. Imagine that you are only a few against so many who've already condemned the defendant in their hearts. Your view may appear extreme to many, though to you, the fan, it is precisely the opposite; it is the others' views that are extreme.

It is true that opinions can obscure facts, but in this case, it is almost a given that media coverage would play a part in distorting facts to the point where a fair trial becomse almost impossible... especially when the accused has already been deemed guilty by a majority of the population. In Barry Shaw's opinion, there was something inherently wrong with using a high publicized child molestation trial to increase media ratiings. For Dana Gedrick, mother of three sons, it was more about keeping her personal feelings out of her work.

Together, the two filmmakers came up with the idea of turning the cameras around on the media.

While we all know that it is impossible to remain uninfluenced by what goes on around us, media coverage and personal opinions have the potential to shroud facts, and in the minds of some individuals, totally obliterate them. It was for these reasons that Barry and Dana decided to focus on the media's influence in the trial of Michael Jackson and allow their film to demonstrate just how impossible it is to remain untouched by that which we witness or become a part of.

Dom Sheldon as Schoolmaster

(A big fat corpse is SONY Corporation, I guess. Or the SYSTEM.)

bboy87 said:

[img:$uid]http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy126/ckotdff/1987AustraliaVisit6.jpg[/img:$uid]

bboy87 said:

[img:$uid]http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy126/ckotdff/1987AustraliaVisit6.jpg[/img:$uid]

So very handsome.

bboy87 said:

[img:$uid]http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy126/ckotdff/1987AustraliaVisit6.jpg[/img:$uid]

Great picture. Looks like......... late 1987?

bboy87 said:

Little Susie was originally written in 1979 and was worked on for some time. It was also considered in 1989 for the Decade project (as was Who Is It, Heal The World, Earth Song, his adult versions of I'll Be There and Never Can Say Goodbye, and his covers of Come Together and Strawberry Fields Forever

I would LOVE to hear his take on this track.

Swa

bboy87 said:

[img:$uid]http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy126/ckotdff/1987AustraliaVisit6.jpg[/img:$uid]

He looks aiight. I prefer the pics of him when he was with the Jackson 5 better. I liked the way he looked "here".

I want that shirt.

^^ My main peve - that isn't a Jackson 5 song. It's The Jacksons.

Militant said:

bboy87 said:

[img][/img]

Great picture. Looks like......... late 1987?

Yep, during the Australian leg of the Bad Tour

Swa said:

^^ My main peve - that isn't a Jackson 5 song. It's The Jacksons.

Whatever, but if I mentioned that song and said the name of the group was "The Jackson 5", the average person wouldnt get offended, they would know what I meant .

Reel said:

Swa said:

^^ My main peve - that isn't a Jackson 5 song. It's The Jacksons.

Whatever, but if I mentioned that song and said the name of the group was "The Jackson 5", the average person wouldnt get offended, they would know what I meant .

Not offended lol

But they ARE two different groups.

Plus "The Jackson 5" sounded childish around the time they made that record. Nonetheless people do make that mistake. No biggie here.

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[Edited 8/5/10 20:46pm]

Militant said:

Unholyalliance said:

*snip*

You're clearly not familiar enough with Prince's work to be able to accurately make this point.

Go back and listen to Prince's debut album "For You" from 1978. The track "I'm Yours" renders your entire argument invalid.

So does "Bambi" from the second album. That song rocks so heavy that even Duff McKagan from Guns N' Roses covered it without having to make it any heavier to fit the type of music he plays.

Prince had been playing guitar since he was a kid, and you think suddenly because Michael made "Beat It" he decided to heavy it up a little bit? As a hardcore fan of both, you're seriously off base.

Heavy guitar /= Heavy metal

It is an element of it, but there are far more elements that make up that genre.

Those two songs flirt with the aforementioned genres, but they aren't really there yet. Basically, close, but no cigar. One is way too heavily funk flavored and the other is very watered down which is why they sound more like poppy versions of what they could be, but aren't. They are missing that, crucial, head banging element, so to speak. They are more like...early Prince's interpretation of what hard rock is more than anything else or that he's trying really hard to make it his own so you don't really get the full flavor of it.

Besides, there's a lot of elements involved in heavy metal besides a heavy guitar. (Why anyone would imply otherwise is beyond me.) Prince was kinda there with the guitar, but all of the other elements are missing. If you would even take a second and listen to ANY song by any acclaimed metal band, at that time, you will hear the immense difference in the music. Again, this is why I said that Beat It did take it there by going into the heavy metal/thrash route as Prince hadn't really traveled through those waters yet. I can say that in Purple Rain he took that final step and really was able to marry a much harder rock sound with his style in LGC. Then again, is it really a coincidence that Let's Go Crazy came after Beat It? Beat It was everywhere. There was just no way Prince sealed himself up in a cave the entire time Beat It was being played on the radio and tv.

Seeing the success that MJ had with Beat It it is not totally left field to suggest that song probably influenced Prince to stop dilly dallying and go all the way. Especially since MJ was black and the song had also been completely embraced by an entirely different demographic. Which is what he finally did when he made LGC.

Claiming that the utter lack of metal and true hard rock in Prince's music up to that point is not, in any way, a reflection on his guitar playing. I never said that and neither did the original author. Not once did it come under scrutiny. I don't even know why the original poster that I was replying to brought it up. =/

Also, as a fan of both, I don't think I'm off base in the least. I also love metal and hard rock and I don't think that Prince's earlier work reflect those genres properly.

Reel said:

Swa said:

^^ My main peve - that isn't a Jackson 5 song. It's The Jacksons.

Whatever, but if I mentioned that song and said the name of the group was "The Jackson 5", the average person wouldnt get offended, they would know what I meant .

You may be right on that point. But as a fan The Jacksons was the period when they started coming into their own as writers and producers and actually made the change for creative control (irony noted that this discussion has been brought about by a song written for them). Also The Jacksons were a different band - sans Jermaine and with Randy.

Just a niggling point, not at an attack more a clarification.

Swa

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[Edited 8/6/10 5:25am]

thanks for the pics, I like the tiger one, and the first tuxedo one, so cute

Timmy84 said:

bboy87 said:

Jerry Hey's horn section for Workin' Day And Night

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/wa...7320_MFX-k[/youtube]

Oh Lord not you too!

Seawind Horns are always on point !

Shango said:

^What all came out of the woodworks

Demo to "Baby Be Mine":