Funny how he became a perfectionist yet his last 3 albums were filled with filler and him repeating the same shit from the first 2. He was damn good but he's highly overrated like there weren't other great singer/dancers before him. They just didn't make awful cheesy music for worldwide appeal. His voice wasn't anything special to me and he always sung each song the same. So I don't know how he became this such revered vocalist. Hell El DeBarge sounds like him and who gives a fuck about him? I just don't get all the hype but like I said he was great at what he did and one of the last of a dying breed. For me to be completely ok with the hype then he would have to atleast done new choreography and switched up the song subjects as the 90's came around. He's somebody who is an 80's relic and never really updated himself to fit with the changing times as the 90's progressed. He just sold because of his name. Just me 2 cents...

thatruth said:

KEEPBUSTIN said:

As a prince fan i get really offended when people compare MJ to Prince, i mean how can you. MJ was a wiered dancer who couldnt play any instruments or write his own songs. He was puppet and Quincy Jones was his master. I know this isnt an official P site (Thank God for that) but serious Why the fark do we even have an MJ thread????????????????????????. I get the whole freedom of speach thing but do you think MJ sites have a Prince thread?????????

I'm going to address two of your points and piss n shit on the rest of what you said.

The Prince comparison is correct, there's never was nor will ever be a comparison between P and Michael. One is a musician at heart but he can entertain, the other was an entertainer who COULD write and produce music.

But I want to jump on this Quincy Jones thing because I heard a lot of folks say something to that affect about Michael wouldn't have been successful without Q. It's total bullshit and I'll tell you why. Quincy was never a songwriter, what did he write? PYT, nope! James Ingram did, Quincy just wrote the title.

People want to make Quincy this super genius producer that made nobodies into superstars, get the fuck outta here.

Quincy was spoiled, he surrounded himself with ultra-talented but unknown and unsigned artists, making them famous and he put his name on the songs on his albums getting all the credit.

The Brothers Johnson wrote and played on most of those hit songs, James Ingram is a beast both singing and composing. Patti Austin, Siedah Garrett, Greg Phillinganes, Leon Ware, Hubert Laws, Luther Vandross and others were already doing their thing.

Rod Temperton wrote a lot of those hit songs that Quincy is credited for, Give Me The Night, Yah Mo Be There, Secret Garden, Stomp, You Put A Move On My Heart, The Dude, Baby, Come To Me.

Don't get me wrong, I respect Q and the music he composed and arranged but to say that Michael needed Quincy is like saying Stevie or Marvin needed Motown to be successful, it's the other way around. Quincy couldn't sing those songs, he couldn't play all of those instruments, he couldn't engineer the songs by himself.

Bottom line, it's a team effort (was a team effort), everybody brings in what they do best.

I agree with what your saying about Quincy but you don't really give him enough credit (i know you give him some). All the great pop producers had the best teams around them. Even self contained units like Jam/Lewis had people like Steve Hodge and Randy Ran doing great things for them in the backgorund (and backing vocalists like Lisa Fisher), so don't underestimate the countless backing musicians that helped Mike's own songs sound so damn good. And Quincy deserves alot of the credit for finding those guys.

Quincy was LA. The LA way back then was infamous for its dozens of supposedly nameless but talented musicians (I know their names LOL). The producer picks that team, so credit to Quincy and others back then like David Foster (who would work properly with Mike later) who would often always work with the best people. Of course without great source material the songs will still pass you by, so Iam not discrediting the great songs and vocals and vocal arrangements Michael brought to the table for Quincy, but Quincy's posse of session musicians, engineers, mixers and songwriters, really added already to Michaels amazing talent in the studio. And the trilogy of albums they worked on wouldn't sound half as good I feel, without Quincy.

All great people surround themselves with the best team. Quincy was one of the best at doing this. It was Quincy who found Rod Temperton for example....

....he asked Rod for songs for "Off the wall" and not Michael. Thats to Quincy's credit and role as producer to find songs. He was great at doing this. Quincy asked his songwriting team (when he use to have one) for "Man in the mirror". Not Mike. So again Quincy deserves some credit for that. Iam not saying he was God, but he deserves the accolades he gets from critics. He tought Michael alot and Mike knew that and was grateful for that.

Even the mixers and engineers that Quincy picked were fantastic. That was no coincidense. Mike didn't handpick those guys either.... Of course Mike deserves as much credit as Quincy, but I don't think many producers back in 1982 would of done an album like "Thriller" apart from Quincy. So credit to him. Maybe Robert "Mutt" lange or even Jim Steinmen (what an interesting collab that could of been), but few others....

Quincy was a major reason why "Off the wall" "thriller" and even "bad", which was more Michaels show, were such global successes.

Its the producers job to bring the best out of you and make you sound as amazing as possible. Quincy did that. They were best pop team since George Martin and the Beatles.

By the time Mike left Quincy, he could produce as well as most pop producers themselves. Quincy taught him that. No question Mike had the unique, raw and natural talent and vocals chops and songwriting chops etc.., but Quincy brought them qualities fully to life.

thesexofit said:

bboy87 said:

I gotta make my list. I love all of Michael's work but there's some tracks were I literally REFUSE to listen to, matter of fact, I'll start from there

The Young Folks (from ABC)- I don't know what it is about this cut, but I skip it everytime it comes on. It's not a bad song, but I do without it

Wings Of My Love (from Got To Be There)- I skip this one, matter of fact, when I first heard the album years ago (probably around 1994), I listened to it twice and I think I haven't heard it since

Too Young (from Music And Me)- this isn't on my list anymore but it used to be! This one, I felt, was a complete misfire and reason why the Music And Me album felt so weak, but it wasn't until I was listening to the radio and heard it on a classical station that made me go "WOW"

Dapper Dan (from Forever Michael)- I don't hate this song, but I don't really like it either. It's like "Call On Me had to wait 10 years to finally be released but THIS made an album?"

Heaven Knows I Love You, Girl (from Goin' Places)- I've NEVER liked this song. This could've been done by The O'Jays and I still would dislike it, and I like O'Jays!

The Girl Is Mine (from Thriller)- it's funny, this song was #2 on the pop chart, #1 on the R&B chart, and #8 in the UK, and I rarely hear people say they like this song and I'm one of them. It's corny, cheesy, and unfunny. The demo from a year earlier is far superior. Ebony and Ivory was a better song. YEAH I SAID IT. Matter of fact, I turned TGIM and put on Ebony and Ivory to cleanse my ears

Torture (from Victory)- Yeah, this song has Jermaine's greasy fingerprints ALL OVER IT It's like an half assed attempt at Thriller, which wasn't a GREAT song, so it says alot

Body (from Victory)- Yeah Marlon is the lead vocalist on the song but I don't care

Heal The World (from Dangerous). NO....just......NO. From the album I regard as Michael's best written work, this song, I feel, the weakest. For All Time or Monkey Business or Someone Put Your Hand Out didn't get picked but THIS one did?! Michael had this thing for cheesy pop songs that I can get with because I tend to like the same songs sometimes (I have Kenny Rogers, Bros, Wham!, Culture Club, and remember, I like "Ebony and Ivory") but this one...will not do

D.S (from HIStory)- I understand the reason for putting this on the album and I give Michael props for doing it but I've never liked it, the lyrics...it's like he was just spouting out random shit

You Are Not Alone (from HIStory)- now get this, I love Childhood, and I love Earth Song, but I can't stand this song except for the last part when Michael starts adlibbing. Maybe because the song is cheesy beyond cheesy, maybe because I DESPISE the videos (No Michael, nobody wanted to see your balls, bruh....although Lisa Marie's butt was lookin' kinda nice back then) or maybe I can't stand the muthafucka who wrote it.....

Ghosts (from Blood On The Dancefloor)- I prefer Is It Scary over this one

Heartbreaker (from Invincible)- NO..NO....NO...Invincible's cool points went down because this clusterfuck of a song. The lyrics....okay, but the production.... (pushes plate away), I will not be having any of that, sir

2000 Watts (from Invincible)- why do I always imagine the old Cartoon Network series "Reboot" when I hear this track?

Cry (from Invincible)- We didn't need a Man In The Mirror 2001, Kells! GET THIS OUTTA HERE

The Lost Children (from Invincible)- Words cannot express my.......

utter......absolute.....complete....disdain for this song. I hate it like I hated gym class. I hate this song like Michael Jordan hates nice clothing. I hate this song like Jermaine hates dry hair. I hate this song like Mel Gibson hates everybody

this song was NOT COOL

How different we are LOL. I love "The lost children", can take "heal the world" occasionally and think "heartbreaker" is easily one of my fav songs from "Invincible".

You go waaay back LOL. Alot of the motown stuff is not surprisenly, weak to me. Jackson 5 were a boyband, and how many great boyband albums are there? Unless your last name was Wonder or Gaye, it's quite obvious to me that motown were all about the singles with their main groups and definately not albums. Still, thanks to Mike's amazing ability to sing his ass off on often medicore- awful songs, the albums are still of interest to me.

I pretty much agree with the J5 songs you dislike (though I quite like "the young folks"). It sounds like the partridge family, but its OK. "Dapper dan" is quite hilairious. "They call me dapper dan" LOL. Bizarre track, though it will never top "The mirrors of my mind" . I love the verses on that one but then it completely stops and turns to crap halfway through.

I like "you are not alone" alot, though Frankie Knuckles Franctified Club Mix off the cd single is the one I hear now (which is longer then the "BOTDF" version). Love that remix.

I LOVE "Torture" ,which was allegedly meant as a duet between Jackie and Michael (Jackie co-wrote and produced it so that makes sense). Jermaine came in very late for the "victory" project, which is probably why he is only on "Torture" and a few adlibs on "Wait" LOL. Poor Jackie. At least he got to sing lead on "Wait", one of my all time fav Jackson related tunes. I love high tech pop like "Torture". Michael sounds great on it. He still had his "Thriller" voice on that one and the other Jermaine duet, "Tell me I'm not dreamin'".

"The Girl is mine" is uber cheesy, very MOR. Credit to Michael for being able to write a convincing MOR duet LOL. Not a fan, but I do like the middle 8 though. The exchanges between Paul and Mike at the end is legendary LOL.

Never liked "D.S" much either, even with the "Owner of a lonely heart" sample (a song I dig alot). Song doesn't really go anywhere. Would of made a cool b side though.

Gotta say the 2 Gamble and Huff albums are not my thing. As you know, "Show you the way to go" was a no 1 hit in the UK (the Jacksons sole no. 1 here), and I like that track (they play it alot on vh1 UK, which is a clip from the Jacksons variety show I think?). "Enjoy yourself" is ok, and "even though your gone" and "find me a girl" are decent enough as well, but generally, I just can;t get with them. Too smooth for the J5. I can see why the 2 albums did very little for them chart wise.

"Music and me" album is one of his weakest albums for me (this includes his J5 albums). Too many laid back songs. Love the title track though, along with the slightly odd rendition of "all the things you are", a guilty pleasure if there ever was one.

I remember "reboot" LOL.

Ya know, I actually LOVE quite alot of The Jackson 5's material, especially the 1972-1975 material. Lookin' Through The Windows is one of their strongest albums during their 7 year tenure (it's crazy how Motown cranked out 20 Jackson 5 related albums during those years and had more than 200 songs still in the vault) along with Moving Violation

You don't like The Jacksons and Goin' Places? I can see with Goin Places because that felt like songs that Gamble and Huff had written stuff for their other artists but said "Lets see what The Jackson boys can do with these songs" my favorites are Man Of War, Different Kind Of Lady and Music's Takin' Over

but the self titled album? I LOVE THAT ALBUM! Blues Away kinda put me on the path of how I wrote songs when I was younger. The only song I skip is Think Happy

I knew I wasn't the only person who loved Wait. That's the second best song on Victory

thesexofit said:

bboy87 said:

Anybody's who seen the full timeline of how J5 worked from 1969 to 1975 knows those guys WORKED

they'd be in LA recording tracks for Motown, go to Vegas that night and do a week of shows at the MGM, get on a plane right after the last show and go to South Africa, do 3 shows there, go back to LA immediately after, record a flurry of tracks, do a couple of TV appearances, then go to another country and do a promo tour then go back to Vegas and do more shows there

those cats had a strong work ethic that after the release of Thriller, Michael said "lemme space it out"

And notice with Thriller, the album is around 110 million copies now....and he only did one TV performance, 3 videos, and 7 singles. and barely any interviews. That's the power of music

You know "Thriller" ain't 110 million LOL.

Anyway I agree. Mike was worked like a workhorse (particually before his voice dropped, almost like motown was trying to make him sing as much as he physically could as they knew his voice was going to drop at any minute). Even though its cliche to say it, I feel for Michael when he says he use to wistfully look out of the studio window and wanted to play with kids in the park but he couldn't as vocals had to be recorded. He recorded an awful lot of songs in those early years at motown (and still quite alot in the later years). It would of taken its toll on Michael alot more then his brothers as they only really did backing vocals (and the odd Jermaine lead song LOL).

Michael earned his right to release albums when he wanted. His early career was full of albums with weak, filler material and Michael obviously knew this and decided he would never do it that way again. That and Mike becoming a perfectionist LOL.

LittleBlueCorvette and another fan on another forum came up with a pretty accurate timeline of the group's time at Motown with recording dates/sessions, concert dates, and TV/promo appearances. After looking through it, you really see what Michael meant when he said he didn't have a childhood

His brothers could go out and have friends, go to school and be somewhat normal, but Michael had to stay and work

bboy87 said:

thesexofit said:

How different we are LOL. I love "The lost children", can take "heal the world" occasionally and think "heartbreaker" is easily one of my fav songs from "Invincible".

You go waaay back LOL. Alot of the motown stuff is not surprisenly, weak to me. Jackson 5 were a boyband, and how many great boyband albums are there? Unless your last name was Wonder or Gaye, it's quite obvious to me that motown were all about the singles with their main groups and definately not albums. Still, thanks to Mike's amazing ability to sing his ass off on often medicore- awful songs, the albums are still of interest to me.

I pretty much agree with the J5 songs you dislike (though I quite like "the young folks"). It sounds like the partridge family, but its OK. "Dapper dan" is quite hilairious. "They call me dapper dan" LOL. Bizarre track, though it will never top "The mirrors of my mind" . I love the verses on that one but then it completely stops and turns to crap halfway through.

I like "you are not alone" alot, though Frankie Knuckles Franctified Club Mix off the cd single is the one I hear now (which is longer then the "BOTDF" version). Love that remix.

I LOVE "Torture" ,which was allegedly meant as a duet between Jackie and Michael (Jackie co-wrote and produced it so that makes sense). Jermaine came in very late for the "victory" project, which is probably why he is only on "Torture" and a few adlibs on "Wait" LOL. Poor Jackie. At least he got to sing lead on "Wait", one of my all time fav Jackson related tunes. I love high tech pop like "Torture". Michael sounds great on it. He still had his "Thriller" voice on that one and the other Jermaine duet, "Tell me I'm not dreamin'".

"The Girl is mine" is uber cheesy, very MOR. Credit to Michael for being able to write a convincing MOR duet LOL. Not a fan, but I do like the middle 8 though. The exchanges between Paul and Mike at the end is legendary LOL.

Never liked "D.S" much either, even with the "Owner of a lonely heart" sample (a song I dig alot). Song doesn't really go anywhere. Would of made a cool b side though.

Gotta say the 2 Gamble and Huff albums are not my thing. As you know, "Show you the way to go" was a no 1 hit in the UK (the Jacksons sole no. 1 here), and I like that track (they play it alot on vh1 UK, which is a clip from the Jacksons variety show I think?). "Enjoy yourself" is ok, and "even though your gone" and "find me a girl" are decent enough as well, but generally, I just can;t get with them. Too smooth for the J5. I can see why the 2 albums did very little for them chart wise.

"Music and me" album is one of his weakest albums for me (this includes his J5 albums). Too many laid back songs. Love the title track though, along with the slightly odd rendition of "all the things you are", a guilty pleasure if there ever was one.

I remember "reboot" LOL.

Ya know, I actually LOVE quite alot of The Jackson 5's material, especially the 1972-1975 material. Lookin' Through The Windows is one of their strongest albums during their 7 year tenure (it's crazy how Motown cranked out 20 Jackson 5 related albums during those years and had more than 200 songs still in the vault) along with Moving Violation

You don't like The Jacksons and Goin' Places? I can see with Goin Places because that felt like songs that Gamble and Huff had written stuff for their other artists but said "Lets see what The Jackson boys can do with these songs" my favorites are Man Of War, Different Kind Of Lady and Music's Takin' Over

but the self titled album? I LOVE THAT ALBUM! Blues Away kinda put me on the path of how I wrote songs when I was younger. The only song I skip is Think Happy

I knew I wasn't the only person who loved Wait. That's the second best song on Victory

If I had an all top top 20 songs list, "wait" would probably be in it LOL. Saying I love it is an understatment. Jackie sounds great on it. Brilliant production, great opening, 2 great middle 8's (Steve Lukathers guitar solo is fire!)

And I love it when Mike comes in after the 2nd middle 8 bellowing "my priiiiiide". You know the bit I mean LOL. I wish they did this live (heck Jermaine must of convinced Mike to do "tell me i'm not dreamin'" on Jermaines solo set of the "Victory" tour LOL. Love the outro to "Wait" as well. Toto are all over that one, but credit to Jackie as well. Mike and Jermaines adlibs at the end are worth it aswell.

So "The mirrors of my mind" or "time explosion" for most weirdest Jackson 5 song LOL? "joyful jukebox music" is pretty odd aswell LOL. Namechecking the Beatles and the Stones:lol:

PlayboyOriginal said:

Funny how he became a perfectionist yet his last 3 albums were filled with filler and him repeating the same shit from the first 2. He was damn good but he's highly overrated like there weren't other great singer/dancers before him. They just didn't make awful cheesy music for worldwide appeal. His voice wasn't anything special to me and he always sung each song the same. So I don't know how he became this such revered vocalist. Hell El DeBarge sounds like him and who gives a fuck about him? I just don't get all the hype but like I said he was great at what he did and one of the last of a dying breed. For me to be completely ok with the hype then he would have to atleast done new choreography and switched up the song subjects as the 90's came around. He's somebody who is an 80's relic and never really updated himself to fit with the changing times as the 90's progressed. He just sold because of his name. Just me 2 cents...

An 80s relic who was part of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s

As for his vocals, you should check out the Motown material he released. As an adult, he had incredible range

For song subjects, In the 70s, Michael was singing about love and having fun, in the 80s, he was singing about paranoia, the dark side of fame

in the 90s he still sang about those subjects but also sang about racial injustice, depression, drug abuse, promiscuity, child abuse, and betrayal.

The hype was this was a guy who crossed racial boundaries and changed the way people saw black entertainers on a worldwide scale

as for the choreography, James Brown never switched up his style and he's still regarded as one of the greatest entertainers ever, as was The Nicholas Brothers. Everybody has their own style

Three albums filled with filler? Maybe you didn't like HIStory, Blood On The Dancefloor, and Invincible but there was many people who felt they were strong albums (with the exception of BOTDF, which was supposed to be a promo EP)

If he just sold on his name, he would've flopped after Bad

but that's your opinion, and I respect that

[Edited 7/12/10 18:44pm]

thesexofit said:

bboy87 said:

Ya know, I actually LOVE quite alot of The Jackson 5's material, especially the 1972-1975 material. Lookin' Through The Windows is one of their strongest albums during their 7 year tenure (it's crazy how Motown cranked out 20 Jackson 5 related albums during those years and had more than 200 songs still in the vault) along with Moving Violation

You don't like The Jacksons and Goin' Places? I can see with Goin Places because that felt like songs that Gamble and Huff had written stuff for their other artists but said "Lets see what The Jackson boys can do with these songs" my favorites are Man Of War, Different Kind Of Lady and Music's Takin' Over

but the self titled album? I LOVE THAT ALBUM! Blues Away kinda put me on the path of how I wrote songs when I was younger. The only song I skip is Think Happy

I knew I wasn't the only person who loved Wait. That's the second best song on Victory

If I had an all top top 20 songs list, "wait" would probably be in it LOL. Saying I love it is an understatment. Jackie sounds great on it. Brilliant production, great opening, 2 great middle 8's (Steve Lukathers guitar solo is fire!)

And I love it when Mike comes in after the 2nd middle 8 bellowing "my priiiiiide". You know the bit I mean LOL. I wish they did this live (heck Jermaine must of convinced Mike to do "tell me i'm not dreamin'" on Jermaines solo set of the "Victory" tour LOL. Love the outro to "Wait" as well. Toto are all over that one, but credit to Jackie as well. Mike and Jermaines adlibs at the end are worth it aswell.

So "The mirrors of my mind" or "time explosion" for most weirdest Jackson 5 song LOL? "joyful jukebox music" is pretty odd aswell LOL. Namechecking the Beatles and the Stones:lol:

I never listen to Time Explosion but I love The Mirrors of My Mind. Those 1972-1975 J5 tracks are still heard at bboy/breakdancing functions, ESPECIALLY Hum Along And Dance

probably the best song on Destiny

thesexofit said:

bboy87 said:

Ya know, I actually LOVE quite alot of The Jackson 5's material, especially the 1972-1975 material. Lookin' Through The Windows is one of their strongest albums during their 7 year tenure (it's crazy how Motown cranked out 20 Jackson 5 related albums during those years and had more than 200 songs still in the vault) along with Moving Violation

You don't like The Jacksons and Goin' Places? I can see with Goin Places because that felt like songs that Gamble and Huff had written stuff for their other artists but said "Lets see what The Jackson boys can do with these songs" my favorites are Man Of War, Different Kind Of Lady and Music's Takin' Over

but the self titled album? I LOVE THAT ALBUM! Blues Away kinda put me on the path of how I wrote songs when I was younger. The only song I skip is Think Happy

I knew I wasn't the only person who loved Wait. That's the second best song on Victory

If I had an all top top 20 songs list, "wait" would probably be in it LOL. Saying I love it is an understatment. Jackie sounds great on it. Brilliant production, great opening, 2 great middle 8's (Steve Lukathers guitar solo is fire!)

And I love it when Mike comes in after the 2nd middle 8 bellowing "my priiiiiide". You know the bit I mean LOL. I wish they did this live (heck Jermaine must of convinced Mike to do "tell me i'm not dreamin'" on Jermaines solo set of the "Victory" tour LOL. Love the outro to "Wait" as well. Toto are all over that one, but credit to Jackie as well. Mike and Jermaines adlibs at the end are worth it aswell.

So "The mirrors of my mind" or "time explosion" for most weirdest Jackson 5 song LOL? "joyful jukebox music" is pretty odd aswell LOL. Namechecking the Beatles and the Stones:lol:

You know I do, because that's my favorite part too!

I'd always considered this more of a Michael solo cut than a Jacksons song...much like "Heartbreak Hotel" was a few years later.

bboy87 said:

thesexofit said:

You know "Thriller" ain't 110 million LOL.

Anyway I agree. Mike was worked like a workhorse (particually before his voice dropped, almost like motown was trying to make him sing as much as he physically could as they knew his voice was going to drop at any minute). Even though its cliche to say it, I feel for Michael when he says he use to wistfully look out of the studio window and wanted to play with kids in the park but he couldn't as vocals had to be recorded. He recorded an awful lot of songs in those early years at motown (and still quite alot in the later years). It would of taken its toll on Michael alot more then his brothers as they only really did backing vocals (and the odd Jermaine lead song LOL).

Michael earned his right to release albums when he wanted. His early career was full of albums with weak, filler material and Michael obviously knew this and decided he would never do it that way again. That and Mike becoming a perfectionist LOL.

LittleBlueCorvette and another fan on another forum came up with a pretty accurate timeline of the group's time at Motown with recording dates/sessions, concert dates, and TV/promo appearances. After looking through it, you really see what Michael meant when he said he didn't have a childhood

His brothers could go out and have friends, go to school and be somewhat normal, but Michael had to stay and work

Plus Motown enslaved him like Diana Ross. Being the "chosen" lead singers, they had to do twice as much then the other members did. So while Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong (and Florence Ballard before Cindy) basically chilled after a minute, Diana would still be in the studio for weeks. Same with Michael and he was only 11, 12 years old so he couldn't quite do what his brothers were somehow being able to do. Looking at the timeline made me more aware why Michael cried about having no childhood. After what he went through I wouldn't want what he had because it comes as a cost. You really have to feel for Michael in that regard. Plus Motown was always a singles-heavy label. Marvin and Stevie were smart enough to realize the label would've tried to milk them of what they could deliver. The Jacksons and MJ in turn were smart in leaving the label even if it cost them their name. Artists like Michael sometimes will work on material that they think is hard to perfect. I guess you can say some of his albums post-Dangerous were filler heavy but it was probably a label obligation or something because if they weren't too concerned with MJ output they would've let Michael finish what he set out to do (of course we know why "Invincible" went the way it did, not totally MJ's fault on that).

As for Quincy he was good at getting musicians together but it was all about teamwork. Q and MJ were perfect for each other, but then again if you check MJ's work on "Destiny" and "Triumph" he was great without him too.

Hey Bboy, and others, what do you think of the few tracks Mike did with David Foster? He worked with Mike back in the day with Quincy (co-writing "it's the falling in love" being his main credit), but by the mid 90's I felt some of his best days were behind him.

However, his work with Mike on "Earth song" (already a demo before Foster's involvement I know), "Childhood" and "Smile" are typical MOR territory for David, but I think he got some great vocals out of Mike (and Mike from himself as he helped produce them with David LOL). Inparticular "Childhood" and "Smile". Foster had already worked with Streisand, and Mike's a big fan, and you can hear he somewhat mimics Bab's on parts of "Childhood" (example "hhhhave you seen my childhood" The way he sings the "ha" of "have". Hard to explain LOL). Thats not a criticism bytheway, as she is second to none when it comes to female vocals I feel. Mike's falcetto is gorgeous aswell, as is the string arrangement. Yes its showtunes, but I love that side of Mike.

"Smile" is a song thats been re-evaluated since his death (and the funeral etc..). Such a shame it was never released as a single as I felt in the UK at least, it could of done great things. Again, Fosters MOR arrangement suits Michael's vocals fine. Also again, Mikes vocals are a real standout when compared to alot of his post Quincy work. It's obviously a song very dear to his heart.

Foster wrote the music to the still unsolved mystery of "I have this dream". Did Mike ever record it? Anyway, Foster has said Mike was abit strange LOL (Foster never minces his words), but also said he was such a pro in the studio (though he said Mike would do take after take after take, which would do his head in LOL).

Mike's work with David on "HIStory" showed a more MOR and showtune side of Mike that alot of people seem to hate. I love that side alot. David is known for always getting great vocals from his clients. He continued to do that with Michael I feel. Shame he didn't work with David again.

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I think they did well together. I could imagine had Michael began to work on the album that David would be included in some kind of way, I'm kinda certain he would've been included.

thesexofit said:

thatruth said:

I'm going to address two of your points and piss n shit on the rest of what you said.

The Prince comparison is correct, there's never was nor will ever be a comparison between P and Michael. One is a musician at heart but he can entertain, the other was an entertainer who COULD write and produce music.

But I want to jump on this Quincy Jones thing because I heard a lot of folks say something to that affect about Michael wouldn't have been successful without Q. It's total bullshit and I'll tell you why. Quincy was never a songwriter, what did he write? PYT, nope! James Ingram did, Quincy just wrote the title.

People want to make Quincy this super genius producer that made nobodies into superstars, get the fuck outta here.

Quincy was spoiled, he surrounded himself with ultra-talented but unknown and unsigned artists, making them famous and he put his name on the songs on his albums getting all the credit.

The Brothers Johnson wrote and played on most of those hit songs, James Ingram is a beast both singing and composing. Patti Austin, Siedah Garrett, Greg Phillinganes, Leon Ware, Hubert Laws, Luther Vandross and others were already doing their thing.

Rod Temperton wrote a lot of those hit songs that Quincy is credited for, Give Me The Night, Yah Mo Be There, Secret Garden, Stomp, You Put A Move On My Heart, The Dude, Baby, Come To Me.

Don't get me wrong, I respect Q and the music he composed and arranged but to say that Michael needed Quincy is like saying Stevie or Marvin needed Motown to be successful, it's the other way around. Quincy couldn't sing those songs, he couldn't play all of those instruments, he couldn't engineer the songs by himself.

Bottom line, it's a team effort (was a team effort), everybody brings in what they do best.

I agree with what your saying about Quincy but you don't really give him enough credit (i know you give him some). All the great pop producers had the best teams around them. Even self contained units like Jam/Lewis had people like Steve Hodge and Randy Ran doing great things for them in the backgorund (and backing vocalists like Lisa Fisher), so don't underestimate the countless backing musicians that helped Mike's own songs sound so damn good. And Quincy deserves alot of the credit for finding those guys.

Quincy was LA. The LA way back then was infamous for its dozens of supposedly nameless but talented musicians (I know their names LOL). The producer picks that team, so credit to Quincy and others back then like David Foster (who would work properly with Mike later) who would often always work with the best people. Of course without great source material the songs will still pass you by, so Iam not discrediting the great songs and vocals and vocal arrangements Michael brought to the table for Quincy, but Quincy's posse of session musicians, engineers, mixers and songwriters, really added already to Michaels amazing talent in the studio. And the trilogy of albums they worked on wouldn't sound half as good I feel, without Quincy.

All great people surround themselves with the best team. Quincy was one of the best at doing this. It was Quincy who found Rod Temperton for example....

....he asked Rod for songs for "Off the wall" and not Michael. Thats to Quincy's credit and role as producer to find songs. He was great at doing this. Quincy asked his songwriting team (when he use to have one) for "Man in the mirror". Not Mike. So again Quincy deserves some credit for that. Iam not saying he was God, but he deserves the accolades he gets from critics. He tought Michael alot and Mike knew that and was grateful for that.

Even the mixers and engineers that Quincy picked were fantastic. That was no coincidense. Mike didn't handpick those guys either.... Of course Mike deserves as much credit as Quincy, but I don't think many producers back in 1982 would of done an album like "Thriller" apart from Quincy. So credit to him. Maybe Robert "Mutt" lange or even Jim Steinmen (what an interesting collab that could of been), but few others....

Quincy was a major reason why "Off the wall" "thriller" and even "bad", which was more Michaels show, were such global successes.

Its the producers job to bring the best out of you and make you sound as amazing as possible. Quincy did that. They were best pop team since George Martin and the Beatles.

By the time Mike left Quincy, he could produce as well as most pop producers themselves. Quincy taught him that. No question Mike had the unique, raw and natural talent and vocals chops and songwriting chops etc.., but Quincy brought them qualities fully to life.

Although I'm not too fond of Quincy these days or his actions as of late, you gotta give credit when credit is due

When you have someone who was such a prefectionist like Michael and someone who has such a ear for music and detail like Quincy (along with a roster of great musicians), you can't really go wrong

Quincy and Michael, with the team of people like Temperton, Greg Philliganes, and Bruce Swedien, changed the face of pop and R&B music

Michael had the concept, the vision, and Quincy would take that and expand on it, knowing who to bring in to make the song sound at its best. If you listen to the demo to Workin' Day And Night, the song is there from the melody, vocal arrangement, lyrics...it's all there but its still a work in progress. You can see Quincy and Michael deciding that it would be best to speed it up a bit, add that KILLER horn section there, add this here and there, and you got

Another ability Quincy had was quality control. He knew the longer version of Billie Jean wasn't going to fit on the album, nor was the original edit of The Lady In My Life. And that Human Nature was a stronger cut than Carousel (although I think Got The Hots could've fit on there SOMEWHERE )

And I think Thriller is in the 80-100 million sales mark. There I said it

scatwoman said:

MyLuv229 said:

"Michael was an amazing guitarist, he was incredible on the drums, he stunned everyone when he got behind the piano, but most of all, you can't overstate his singing voice."

I'm glad someone noticed that quote in the article I posted. I knew that Michael probably played around with drums and the guitar, but this is the first time someone said he was amazing at playing an instrument. I had to make it bold because that's the first thing people attack Michael with whenever comparing him to Prince. I couldn't ignore it

thesexofit said:

Hey Bboy, and others, what do you think of the few tracks Mike did with David Foster? He worked with Mike back in the day with Quincy (co-writing "it's the falling in love" being his main credit), but by the mid 90's I felt some of his best days were behind him.

However, his work with Mike on "Earth song" (already a demo before Foster's involvement I know), "Childhood" and "Smile" are typical MOR territory for David, but I think he got some great vocals out of Mike (and Mike from himself as he helped produce them with David LOL). Inparticular "Childhood" and "Smile". Foster had already worked with Streisand, and Mike's a big fan, and you can hear he somewhat mimics Bab's on parts of "Childhood" (example "hhhhave you seen my childhood" The way he sings the "ha" of "have". Hard to explain LOL). Thats not a criticism bytheway, as she is second to none when it comes to female vocals I feel. Mike's falcetto is gorgeous aswell, as is the string arrangement. Yes its showtunes, but I love that side of Mike.

"Smile" is a song thats been re-evaluated since his death (and the funeral etc..). Such a shame it was never released as a single as I felt in the UK at least, it could of done great things. Again, Fosters MOR arrangement suits Michael's vocals fine. Also again, Mikes vocals are a real standout when compared to alot of his post Quincy work. It's obviously a song very dear to his heart.

Foster wrote the music to the still unsolved mystery of "I have this dream". Did Mike ever record it? Anyway, Foster has said Mike was abit strange LOL (Foster never minces his words), but also said he was such a pro in the studio (though he said Mike would do take after take after take, which would do his head in LOL).

Mike's work with David on "HIStory" showed a more MOR and showtune side of Mike that alot of people seem to hate. I love that side alot. David is known for always getting great vocals from his clients. He continued to do that with Michael I feel. Shame he didn't work with David again.

Yeah they did 2 versions of I Have This Dream and I think they did more stuff for Invincible (the more you hear about the songs that didn't make the cut and seeing the original cover for the album, it see that he was definitely going for a different direction)

I wouldn't be surprised if Michael worked with him prior to him passing away.

And you mentioned 2 of my favorite songs from HIStory. I love Childhood and Smile, and I've learned to really appreciate Little Susie. To think he wrote it during the time he was working on Off The Wall and writing for Triumph...wow

[Edited 7/12/10 19:20pm]

bboy87 said:

PlayboyOriginal said:

Funny how he became a perfectionist yet his last 3 albums were filled with filler and him repeating the same shit from the first 2. He was damn good but he's highly overrated like there weren't other great singer/dancers before him. They just didn't make awful cheesy music for worldwide appeal. His voice wasn't anything special to me and he always sung each song the same. So I don't know how he became this such revered vocalist. Hell El DeBarge sounds like him and who gives a fuck about him? I just don't get all the hype but like I said he was great at what he did and one of the last of a dying breed. For me to be completely ok with the hype then he would have to atleast done new choreography and switched up the song subjects as the 90's came around. He's somebody who is an 80's relic and never really updated himself to fit with the changing times as the 90's progressed. He just sold because of his name. Just me 2 cents...

An 80s relic who was part of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s

As for his vocals, you should check out the Motown material he released. As an adult, he had incredible range

For song subjects, In the 70s, Michael was singing about love and having fun, in the 80s, he was singing about paranoia, the dark side of fame

in the 90s he still sang about those subjects but also sang about racial injustice, depression, drug abuse, promiscuity, child abuse, and betrayal.

The hype was this was a guy who crossed racial boundaries and changed the way people saw black entertainers on a worldwide scale

as for the choreography, James Brown never switched up his style and he's still regarded as one of the greatest entertainers ever, as was The Nicholas Brothers. Everybody has their own style

Three albums filled with filler? Maybe you didn't like HIStory, Blood On The Dancefloor, and Invincible but there was many people who felt they were strong albums (with the exception of BOTDF, which was supposed to be a promo EP)

If he just sold on his name, he would've flopped after Bad

but that's your opinion, and I respect that

[Edited 7/12/10 18:44pm]

Wow, where do you guys get these recordings from. That acapella recording was very very nice. Sounded a little "rough" in like 2 spots...but very nice none the less. I felt like MJ was sitting here singing to me.

Swa said:

KEEPBUSTIN said:

As a prince fan i get really offended when people compare MJ to Prince, i mean how can you. MJ was a wiered dancer who couldnt play any instruments or write his own songs. He was puppet and Quincy Jones was his master. I know this isnt an official P site (Thank God for that) but serious Why the fark do we even have an MJ thread????????????????????????. I get the whole freedom of speach thing but do you think MJ sites have a Prince thread?????????

Like you said there should be no comparison. Not because they weren't on each other's level, but rather a comparison is something subjective and already tainted by your own bias. Also doing so robs you of enjoying the great music that both artists produced.

You state MJ couldn't play any instruments, but this is factually in correct. He could play a few instruments - piano, guitar and drums. Sure it's not on the Prince multi-instrumentalist level but then again that is a weak comparison.

You claim Quincy was his master - then how do you explain the "master" not wanting to include Billie Jean on Thriller because he didn't like the bassline? And how do you explain Michael's continued success post Bad?

And why do we need an MJ thread? Well because this is under the music-nonprince section, and many fans like myself enjoy discussing all the artists we appreciate. And for the record, yes MJ sites have Prince threads.

As I have often stated, many people bought into the whole "one or the other" argument fostered by the media in the 80s to sell stuff. They always do it with successful artists that hit at the same time. And again, in my opinion, not exposing yourself to the music of both artists really does rob you of some great music.

After all, even Prince has paid tribute to Michael and given him props throughout his career and enjoyed covering his songs (Don't Stop Til You Get Enough, Billie Jean, Shake Your Body Down for example) or pumping up the audience prior to his shows by spinning an MJ track or two.

But thankfully for you, this is just one thread on a whole site dedicated to Prince and music. So if you aren't keen on discussing MJ's music - that's cool, there are hundred of other threads for you to read in peace.

But hey, thanks for stopping by.

Swa

[Edited 7/12/10 4:36am]

NICELY DONE!!! Too bad "KEEPBUSTIN" probably didn't stick around long enough to hear the logical side of it.

The 1978 demo of "She's Out of My Life":

The team of Jones and Jackson changed up some of the arrangements originally used here. This sounds more folk-ish.

Reel said:

bboy87 said:

An 80s relic who was part of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s

As for his vocals, you should check out the Motown material he released. As an adult, he had incredible range

For song subjects, In the 70s, Michael was singing about love and having fun, in the 80s, he was singing about paranoia, the dark side of fame

in the 90s he still sang about those subjects but also sang about racial injustice, depression, drug abuse, promiscuity, child abuse, and betrayal.

The hype was this was a guy who crossed racial boundaries and changed the way people saw black entertainers on a worldwide scale

as for the choreography, James Brown never switched up his style and he's still regarded as one of the greatest entertainers ever, as was The Nicholas Brothers. Everybody has their own style

Three albums filled with filler? Maybe you didn't like HIStory, Blood On The Dancefloor, and Invincible but there was many people who felt they were strong albums (with the exception of BOTDF, which was supposed to be a promo EP)

If he just sold on his name, he would've flopped after Bad

but that's your opinion, and I respect that

[Edited 7/12/10 18:44pm]

Wow, where do you guys get these recordings from. That acapella recording was very very nice. Sounded a little "rough" in like 2 spots...but very nice none the less. I felt like MJ was sitting here singing to me.

They're all over the place. Single releases, special edition releases, people extracting the 5.1 surround audio from the DVDs, fans getting their hands on early pressings of albums or acetates.....there's alot out there. There's also a concert from Michael's 1987 tour that features him and Stevie Wonder dueting on Bad

It's kinda interesting and fascinating how bare the demo of SOOML was compared to its finished version:

The Jerry Hey-arranged string intro, the sad keyboard riffs by Greg Phillinganes, a slight use of guitar, and then Michael's melancholy version. I think the reason why Q didn't think (and he probably was right at the time) Michael experienced what he experienced and why he was crying at the end was I think he kinda didn't understand WHY Michael did this crying effect.

You know how a great actor always use that one point in the movie where they make the character another image of them, well this is what Michael was doing here. He poured all out that emotion (near the end) into him as if he was relating to something in his life, and something about the song touched him to the core that he couldn't help BUT cry.

That's what makes a great song a great song. That's all Michael (with the vocals).

bboy87 said:

thesexofit said:

Hey Bboy, and others, what do you think of the few tracks Mike did with David Foster? He worked with Mike back in the day with Quincy (co-writing "it's the falling in love" being his main credit), but by the mid 90's I felt some of his best days were behind him.

However, his work with Mike on "Earth song" (already a demo before Foster's involvement I know), "Childhood" and "Smile" are typical MOR territory for David, but I think he got some great vocals out of Mike (and Mike from himself as he helped produce them with David LOL). Inparticular "Childhood" and "Smile". Foster had already worked with Streisand, and Mike's a big fan, and you can hear he somewhat mimics Bab's on parts of "Childhood" (example "hhhhave you seen my childhood" The way he sings the "ha" of "have". Hard to explain LOL). Thats not a criticism bytheway, as she is second to none when it comes to female vocals I feel. Mike's falcetto is gorgeous aswell, as is the string arrangement. Yes its showtunes, but I love that side of Mike.

"Smile" is a song thats been re-evaluated since his death (and the funeral etc..). Such a shame it was never released as a single as I felt in the UK at least, it could of done great things. Again, Fosters MOR arrangement suits Michael's vocals fine. Also again, Mikes vocals are a real standout when compared to alot of his post Quincy work. It's obviously a song very dear to his heart.

Foster wrote the music to the still unsolved mystery of "I have this dream". Did Mike ever record it? Anyway, Foster has said Mike was abit strange LOL (Foster never minces his words), but also said he was such a pro in the studio (though he said Mike would do take after take after take, which would do his head in LOL).

Mike's work with David on "HIStory" showed a more MOR and showtune side of Mike that alot of people seem to hate. I love that side alot. David is known for always getting great vocals from his clients. He continued to do that with Michael I feel. Shame he didn't work with David again.

Yeah they did 2 versions of I Have This Dream and I think they did more stuff for Invincible (the more you hear about the songs that didn't make the cut and seeing the original cover for the album, it see that he was definitely going for a different direction)

I wouldn't be surprised if Michael worked with him prior to him passing away.

And you mentioned 2 of my favorite songs from HIStory. I love Childhood and Smile, and I've learned to really appreciate Little Susie. To think he wrote it during the time he was working on Off The Wall and writing for Triumph...wow

[Edited 7/12/10 19:20pm]

It's cool to meet MJ fans that like "childhood" and "smile" and not scoff at them for being MOR LOL. "Childhood" has always been one of my favs. Also cool that there is a (very rarely seen) video to it. It's a nice video actually. Like "Smile", you really feel the song is close to his heart. And talk about autobiographical LOL. Iam a big fan of "little susie" as well. Amazing that Mike wrote and produced that himself.

Out of all the producers post Quincy, I felt Teddy was the only one that truly got him. Much credit to David for example, but Teddy seemed to actually understand Mike like Quincy did. It's hard to explain, but you can feel a close respect and love between the two like Mike and QJ. Thats not to say their work was always my favourite (as I said, I love the work Mike did with Foster), but you feel something is lacking abit with Jam/Lewis, Babyface or Rodney Jerkins. Maybe its to Teddy's credit, and a veteran like David Fosters credit, that can bring alot out of Mike, but considering Teddy was a (pardon the pun) "Newjack" when he got the call to work with Mike, its amazing how Teddy stepped up like he did. Its no coincidense that Quincy supposedly suggested to MJ that he should work with Teddy.

Songs like "why you wanna trip on me" "remember the time" "can't let her get away" and "dangerous", are pretty much as classic to me, as alot of his work with Quincy. The textures on those tracks are as deep as the ones on "bad" etc... Amazing production.

I guess as Mike worked with Teddy alot more then with say Jam/lewis and Babyface, it's easier to give Teddy more props, but you see his reaction when he died on CNN, thats real emotion right there. Teddy loved that guy.

Fav producer post Quincy? I guess you ain't gonna say R Kelly LOL.

bboy87 said:

PlayboyOriginal said:

Funny how he became a perfectionist yet his last 3 albums were filled with filler and him repeating the same shit from the first 2. He was damn good but he's highly overrated like there weren't other great singer/dancers before him. They just didn't make awful cheesy music for worldwide appeal. His voice wasn't anything special to me and he always sung each song the same. So I don't know how he became this such revered vocalist. Hell El DeBarge sounds like him and who gives a fuck about him? I just don't get all the hype but like I said he was great at what he did and one of the last of a dying breed. For me to be completely ok with the hype then he would have to atleast done new choreography and switched up the song subjects as the 90's came around. He's somebody who is an 80's relic and never really updated himself to fit with the changing times as the 90's progressed. He just sold because of his name. Just me 2 cents...

An 80s relic who was part of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s

As for his vocals, you should check out the Motown material he released. As an adult, he had incredible range

For song subjects, In the 70s, Michael was singing about love and having fun, in the 80s, he was singing about paranoia, the dark side of fame

in the 90s he still sang about those subjects but also sang about racial injustice, depression, drug abuse, promiscuity, child abuse, and betrayal.

The hype was this was a guy who crossed racial boundaries and changed the way people saw black entertainers on a worldwide scale

as for the choreography, James Brown never switched up his style and he's still regarded as one of the greatest entertainers ever, as was The Nicholas Brothers. Everybody has their own style

Three albums filled with filler? Maybe you didn't like HIStory, Blood On The Dancefloor, and Invincible but there was many people who felt they were strong albums (with the exception of BOTDF, which was supposed to be a promo EP)

If he just sold on his name, he would've flopped after Bad

but that's your opinion, and I respect that

[Edited 7/12/10 18:44pm]

I'm talking about Michael the solo artist. I hate when people bring up the Jackson 5 when they were a group and its a totally separate issue. I'll be honest and say that most of his little kid songs were awful to me and I never liked them. Never Can Say Goodbye, Where You Are & ABC are about the only songs that I can tolerate. So that takes out the supposed "60's" and most of the 70's.

Now I do love his music once he became an adult with the Jacksons. I'll say the album that contains Enjoy Yourself through Thriller is the ONLY point in time which I love Michael's music and voice. But that means that I only like Off The Wall & Thriller by Michael the solo artist out of like 6 albums. That is sad as hell. I like maybe 3 songs on Bad and the rest of his music was just him rehashing shit he had already done like I said before.

He could have the biggest vocal range of any person in history but he still doesn't mean much when he mostly NEVER used it and after the Thriller era he pretty much stopped singing live. I have no respect for anybody that lipsyncs and all they are doing is hairflips and walking around on stage. I don't give a damn about him singing about paranoia, who the hell wants to hear 6 songs about being paranoid??? Like really, is that the best you can come up with Michael? A supposed genius... HA! He sounded like he was as crazy as he looked and acted. The stuff he sung about in the 90's still wasn't shit, I'll give you racial injustice and drug abuse but everything else is nothing that wasn't done before and MUCH better. His songwriting was poor and cheesy as hell. I understand why he had worldwide success he was like a dancing Barry Manilow.

I'll give you how he changed the way the world looked at black entertainers but that had alot to do with his music being highly accessible, his squeeky clean image and him being a dancer. People love seeing somebody do some cute moves on stage hence why horrible dancers like Chris Brown and Britney Spears have made a career out of nothing. I'll always respect his achievements even if he hated being a black man so much that he changed his skin color and face. His own children don't have an ounce of black in them.

Exactly, its great to have a signature style of dance but its also important to be able to show versatility. If Michael was supposedly the best dancer then he should have been able to do that. Obviously he was no better than James Brown, Tina Turner and the Nicholas Brothers so we can stop overhyping his dance skills.

I never heard of Blood On The Dancefloor so you can take that out of your list. Invincible was garbage, HIStory was nothing but a bunch of b-sides (I love Stranger In Moscow though) and Dangerous was a horrible attempt of trying to be current (Remember The Times being the only standout due to an amazing video). Other people liking it is exactly what my point was cheesy music that had worldwide appeal.

He did sell off his name... which is why each album dwindled in sales after Thriller. Just like Madonna sells just because of who she is. Look at the record company jumping on the man's death to release albums with 3 b-sides/demoes and the rest with hits that have already been on numerous compilations in the last 10 years. Him being Michael Jackson the King of Pop is what attracted people to his music whether it was good or not. I've seen alot of horrible reviews for Michael's albums on Amazon and iTunes.

He was a helluva performer and a great studio artist when he let Quincy be the mastermind and he be the prodigy. His sheer charisma, his PHENOMENAL stage theatrics and music videos is what makes him the legend he is. I'll never deny him but the greatest of all time, he'll never be and I respect your opinion as well.

It's not about Quincy not receiving any credit. His input was considerably needed, since he's an adept arranger, and knew the best instrumentalists around to recruit for recording. The issue is him getting too much credit, and too much attention when Off The Wall, Thriller, and Bad are discussed in most TV shows, articles, etc, causing people who are unaware to think/believe that he was the one who composed and solely produced all of Michael's songs from those albums. That is always the problem, as well as the notion that Quincy Jones is the only reason why MJ's adult solo albums in the 80s were successful, and I've read that even Michael resented that eventually.

^^ Yeah what she (WIYB) said.

Don't get me wrong, Q's a legend and all but it ain't like he had strings around MJ's hands.

[Edited 7/12/10 19:54pm]

Timmy84 said:

Has anyone else noticed how fuzzy his face was? It's kinda cute...like his hairline seems to run in to his eyebrows...anyways..carry on.

PlayboyOriginal said:

bboy87 said:

An 80s relic who was part of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s

As for his vocals, you should check out the Motown material he released. As an adult, he had incredible range

For song subjects, In the 70s, Michael was singing about love and having fun, in the 80s, he was singing about paranoia, the dark side of fame

in the 90s he still sang about those subjects but also sang about racial injustice, depression, drug abuse, promiscuity, child abuse, and betrayal.

The hype was this was a guy who crossed racial boundaries and changed the way people saw black entertainers on a worldwide scale

as for the choreography, James Brown never switched up his style and he's still regarded as one of the greatest entertainers ever, as was The Nicholas Brothers. Everybody has their own style

Three albums filled with filler? Maybe you didn't like HIStory, Blood On The Dancefloor, and Invincible but there was many people who felt they were strong albums (with the exception of BOTDF, which was supposed to be a promo EP)

If he just sold on his name, he would've flopped after Bad

but that's your opinion, and I respect that

[Edited 7/12/10 18:44pm]

I'm talking about Michael the solo artist. I hate when people bring up the Jackson 5 when they were a group and its a totally separate issue. I'll be honest and say that most of his little kid songs were awful to me and I never liked them. Never Can Say Goodbye, Where You Are & ABC are about the only songs that I can tolerate. So that takes out the supposed "60's" and most of the 70's.

Now I do love his music once he became an adult with the Jacksons. I'll say the album that contains Enjoy Yourself through Thriller is the ONLY point in time which I love Michael's music and voice. But that means that I only like Off The Wall & Thriller by Michael the solo artist out of like 6 albums. That is sad as hell. I like maybe 3 songs on Bad and the rest of his music was just him rehashing shit he had already done like I said before.

He could have the biggest vocal range of any person in history but he still doesn't mean much when he mostly NEVER used it and after the Thriller era he pretty much stopped singing live. I have no respect for anybody that lipsyncs and all they are doing is hairflips and walking around on stage. I don't give a damn about him singing about paranoia, who the hell wants to hear 6 songs about being paranoid??? Like really, is that the best you can come up with Michael? A supposed genius... HA! He sounded like he was as crazy as he looked and acted. The stuff he sung about in the 90's still wasn't shit, I'll give you racial injustice and drug abuse but everything else is nothing that wasn't done before and MUCH better. His songwriting was poor and cheesy as hell. I understand why he had worldwide success he was like a dancing Barry Manilow.

I'll give you how he changed the way the world looked at black entertainers but that had alot to do with his music being highly accessible, his squeeky clean image and him being a dancer. People love seeing somebody do some cute moves on stage hence why horrible dancers like Chris Brown and Britney Spears have made a career out of nothing. I'll always respect his achievements even if he hated being a black man so much that he changed his skin color and face. His own children don't have an ounce of black in them.

Exactly, its great to have a signature style of dance but its also important to be able to show versatility. If Michael was supposedly the best dancer then he should have been able to do that. Obviously he was no better than James Brown, Tina Turner and the Nicholas Brothers so we can stop overhyping his dance skills.

I never heard of Blood On The Dancefloor so you can take that out of your list. Invincible was garbage, HIStory was nothing but a bunch of b-sides (I love Stranger In Moscow though) and Dangerous was a horrible attempt of trying to be current (Remember The Times being the only standout due to an amazing video). Other people liking it is exactly what my point was cheesy music that had worldwide appeal.

He did sell off his name... which is why each album dwindled in sales after Thriller. Just like Madonna sells just because of who she is. Look at the record company jumping on the man's death to release albums with 3 b-sides/demoes and the rest with hits that have already been on numerous compilations in the last 10 years. Him being Michael Jackson the King of Pop is what attracted people to his music whether it was good or not. I've seen alot of horrible reviews for Michael's albums on Amazon and iTunes.

He was a helluva performer and a great studio artist when he let Quincy be the mastermind and he be the prodigy. His sheer charisma, his PHENOMENAL stage theatrics and music videos is what makes him the legend he is. I'll never deny him but the greatest of all time, he'll never be and I respect your opinion as well.

Doesn't every big name sell off of their name. Madonna, Stevie, Prince, George Michael, Sting, Bruce Springsteen do it

You talked about his vocal range so I brought in The Jackson material, especially the 1973-1975 material

The stuff he wrote for Dangerous and HIStory was his best written material

When it comes to dancing, he was pretty versitile. Check back his dancing from 1973 to his passing

You've seen alot of horrible reviews of Mike's music, but you probably saw some good ones too

thesexofit said:

Hey Bboy, and others, what do you think of the few tracks Mike did with David Foster? He worked with Mike back in the day with Quincy (co-writing "it's the falling in love" being his main credit), but by the mid 90's I felt some of his best days were behind him.

However, his work with Mike on "Earth song" (already a demo before Foster's involvement I know), "Childhood" and "Smile" are typical MOR territory for David, but I think he got some great vocals out of Mike (and Mike from himself as he helped produce them with David LOL). Inparticular "Childhood" and "Smile". Foster had already worked with Streisand, and Mike's a big fan, and you can hear he somewhat mimics Bab's on parts of "Childhood" (example "hhhhave you seen my childhood" The way he sings the "ha" of "have". Hard to explain LOL). Thats not a criticism bytheway, as she is second to none when it comes to female vocals I feel. Mike's falcetto is gorgeous aswell, as is the string arrangement. Yes its showtunes, but I love that side of Mike.

"Smile" is a song thats been re-evaluated since his death (and the funeral etc..). Such a shame it was never released as a single as I felt in the UK at least, it could of done great things. Again, Fosters MOR arrangement suits Michael's vocals fine. Also again, Mikes vocals are a real standout when compared to alot of his post Quincy work. It's obviously a song very dear to his heart.

Foster wrote the music to the still unsolved mystery of "I have this dream". Did Mike ever record it? Anyway, Foster has said Mike was abit strange LOL (Foster never minces his words), but also said he was such a pro in the studio (though he said Mike would do take after take after take, which would do his head in LOL).

Mike's work with David on "HIStory" showed a more MOR and showtune side of Mike that alot of people seem to hate. I love that side alot. David is known for always getting great vocals from his clients. He continued to do that with Michael I feel. Shame he didn't work with David again.

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One of the highlights of Little Susie, Childhood and Smile is that for the most part these were one take vocals recorded live with the orchestra - with maybe one line picked up in another pass.

Credit where credit is due - even though I'm not a fan of Childhood.

Jerry Hey's horn section for Workin' Day And Night

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/wa...7320_MFX-k[/youtube]

bboy87 said:

Jerry Hey's horn section for Workin' Day And Night

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/wa...7320_MFX-k[/youtube]

Oh Lord not you too!