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PrintableLammastide said: theAudience said: I've had this fantasy that all contemporary folk that classify themselves as musicians, be transported back to the 1920-30 period and try to make it being a "musician" in Louis Armstrong's band for example. If you survive, then you could be transported back to the present and retain that title. My guess is not only would the vast majority get this look from "Pops"... 
Or the Benny Goodman ray.  Or Miles telling you to... 
...STFU!!! Music for adventurous listeners tA  Tribal Records"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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BlaqueKnight said: If you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know.
-- Louis Armstrong That's pretty concise and to the point. 
Here's what some other well known (or should be) practitioners of the art form have to say on the subject. On Jazz... “Put it this way: Jazz is a good barometer of freedom… In its beginnings, the United States of America spawned certain ideals of freedom and independence through which, eventually, jazz was evolved, and the music is so free that man people say it is the only unhampered, unhindered expression of complete freedom yet produced in this country.” ...Duke Ellington In classical music, only two people are important, the composer and the conductor. Everybody else is a serf. In jazz, a thing of beauty is created collectively with everybody getting to express an idea. And that reflects what democratic society is --- or should be. ...Max Roach “It’s the group sound that’s important, even when you’re playing a solo. You not only have to know your own instrument, you must know the others and how to back them up at all times. That’s jazz.” ...Oscar Peterson “As long as there is democracy, there will be people wanting to play jazz because nothing else will ever so perfectly capture the democratic process in sound. Jazz means working things out musically with other people. You have to listen to other musicians and play with them even if you don’t agree with what they’re playing. It teaches you the very opposite of racism and anti-Semitism. It teaches you that the world is big enough to accommodate us all.” ...Wynton Marsalis “Jazz is the only music in which the same note can be played night after night but differently each time.” ...Ornette Coleman “It’s like a language. You learn the alphabet, which are the scales. You learn sentences, which are the chords. And then you talk extemporaneously with the horn. It’s a wonderful thing to speak extemporaneously, which is something I’ve never gotten the hang of. But musically I love to talk just off the top of my head. And that’s what jazz music is all about.” ...Stan Getz “Good jazz is when the leader jumps on the piano, waves his arms, and yells. Fine jazz is when a tenorman lifts his foot in the air. Great jazz is when he heaves a piercing note for 32 bars and collapses on his hands and knees. A pure genius of jazz is manifested when he and the rest of the orchestra runaround the room while the rhythm section grimaces and dances around their instruments.” ...Charles Mingus “A jazz musician is a juggler who uses harmonies instead of oranges.” ...Benny Green “I never thought that the music called “jazz” was ever meant to reach just a small group of people, or become a museum thing locked under glass like all the other dead things that were once considered artistic.” ...Miles Davis “The memory of things gone is important to a jazz musician. Things like old folks singing in the moonlight in the back yard on a hot night or something said long ago.” ...Louis Armstrong On improvisation... “Life is a lot like jazz. . . it’s best when you improvise. . .” ...George Gershwin “It’s performing without any really set basis for the lines and the content as such emotionally or, specifically, musically. And if you sit down and contemplate what you’re going to do, and take five hours to write five minutes of music, then it’s composed music. Therefore I would put it in the classical or serious, whatever you want to call it, written-music category. So there’s composed music and there’s jazz. And to me anybody that makes music using the process that we are using in Jazz, is playing Jazz.” ...Bill Evans “You have to practice improvisation, let no one kid you about it!” ...Art Tatum “In fifteen seconds the difference between composition and improvisation is that in composition you have all the time you want to decide what to say in fifteen seconds, while in improvisation you have fifteen seconds.” ...Steve Lacy “. . .this is my dilemma. I’m a guy who makes things up as I go along so nothing is ever finished-there are so many layers. So when you solo, yeah, you might get into one thing, but then, hey, everything has implications! You can hear the next level. And that’s how I feel about improvising-there’s always another level.” ...Sonny Rollins Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal Records"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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Lammastide said: Good show, tA. You were nice to me.
I'm hurt that you would have expected anything else. 
Based on my past interactions with you (too few), I knew we'd be able to have a rational discussion about this. We'll continue this tomorrow. 
Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal Records"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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Imago said: It sounds a lot like Kamasutra to me. Anyone else agree?
In what way? Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal Records"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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theAudience said: BlaqueKnight said: If you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know.
-- Louis Armstrong That's pretty concise and to the point.
Here's what some other well known (or should be) practitioners of the art form have to say on the subject. On Jazz... “Put it this way: Jazz is a good barometer of freedom… In its beginnings, the United States of America spawned certain ideals of freedom and independence through which, eventually, jazz was evolved, and the music is so free that man people say it is the only unhampered, unhindered expression of complete freedom yet produced in this country.” ...Duke Ellington In classical music, only two people are important, the composer and the conductor. Everybody else is a serf. In jazz, a thing of beauty is created collectively with everybody getting to express an idea. And that reflects what democratic society is --- or should be. ...Max Roach “It’s the group sound that’s important, even when you’re playing a solo. You not only have to know your own instrument, you must know the others and how to back them up at all times. That’s jazz.” ...Oscar Peterson “As long as there is democracy, there will be people wanting to play jazz because nothing else will ever so perfectly capture the democratic process in sound. Jazz means working things out musically with other people. You have to listen to other musicians and play with them even if you don’t agree with what they’re playing. It teaches you the very opposite of racism and anti-Semitism. It teaches you that the world is big enough to accommodate us all.” ...Wynton Marsalis “Jazz is the only music in which the same note can be played night after night but differently each time.” ...Ornette Coleman “It’s like a language. You learn the alphabet, which are the scales. You learn sentences, which are the chords. And then you talk extemporaneously with the horn. It’s a wonderful thing to speak extemporaneously, which is something I’ve never gotten the hang of. But musically I love to talk just off the top of my head. And that’s what jazz music is all about.” ...Stan Getz “Good jazz is when the leader jumps on the piano, waves his arms, and yells. Fine jazz is when a tenorman lifts his foot in the air. Great jazz is when he heaves a piercing note for 32 bars and collapses on his hands and knees. A pure genius of jazz is manifested when he and the rest of the orchestra runaround the room while the rhythm section grimaces and dances around their instruments.” ...Charles Mingus “A jazz musician is a juggler who uses harmonies instead of oranges.” ...Benny Green “I never thought that the music called “jazz” was ever meant to reach just a small group of people, or become a museum thing locked under glass like all the other dead things that were once considered artistic.” ...Miles Davis “The memory of things gone is important to a jazz musician. Things like old folks singing in the moonlight in the back yard on a hot night or something said long ago.” ...Louis Armstrong On improvisation... “Life is a lot like jazz. . . it’s best when you improvise. . .” ...George Gershwin “It’s performing without any really set basis for the lines and the content as such emotionally or, specifically, musically. And if you sit down and contemplate what you’re going to do, and take five hours to write five minutes of music, then it’s composed music. Therefore I would put it in the classical or serious, whatever you want to call it, written-music category. So there’s composed music and there’s jazz. And to me anybody that makes music using the process that we are using in Jazz, is playing Jazz.” ...Bill Evans “You have to practice improvisation, let no one kid you about it!” ...Art Tatum “In fifteen seconds the difference between composition and improvisation is that in composition you have all the time you want to decide what to say in fifteen seconds, while in improvisation you have fifteen seconds.” ...Steve Lacy “. . .this is my dilemma. I’m a guy who makes things up as I go along so nothing is ever finished-there are so many layers. So when you solo, yeah, you might get into one thing, but then, hey, everything has implications! You can hear the next level. And that’s how I feel about improvising-there’s always another level.” ...Sonny Rollins Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal RecordsI'm not a homosexual, but well, after that beautiful post tA, I'm yours. Did Prince ever deny he had sex with his sister? I believe not. So there U have it..
http://prince.org/msg/8/327790?&pg=2 | |
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theAudience said: Imago said: It sounds a lot like Kamasutra to me. Anyone else agree?
In what way? Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal Records
I was just trying to ruffle your feathers. | |
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Sandino said: I'm not a homosexual, but well, after that beautiful post tA, I'm yours.  [Edited 12/10/09 3:42am] | |
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I now feel obligated to pay tuition, or something!
 I'm sick and tired of the Prince fans being sick and tired of the Prince fans that are sick and tired! | |
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Adisa said: I now feel obligated to pay tuition, or something!
I've been saying for years that the org should charge a subscription fee for tA's posts. Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.” | |
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“Jazz is the only music in which the same note can be played night after night but differently each time.”
...Ornette Coleman Obviously Coleman does NOT listen 2 Prince in concert. | |
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theAudience said: BlaqueKnight said: If you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know.
-- Louis Armstrong That's pretty concise and to the point.
Here's what some other well known (or should be) practitioners of the art form have to say on the subject. On Jazz... “Put it this way: Jazz is a good barometer of freedom… In its beginnings, the United States of America spawned certain ideals of freedom and independence through which, eventually, jazz was evolved, and the music is so free that man people say it is the only unhampered, unhindered expression of complete freedom yet produced in this country.” ...Duke Ellington In classical music, only two people are important, the composer and the conductor. Everybody else is a serf. In jazz, a thing of beauty is created collectively with everybody getting to express an idea. And that reflects what democratic society is --- or should be. ...Max Roach “It’s the group sound that’s important, even when you’re playing a solo. You not only have to know your own instrument, you must know the others and how to back them up at all times. That’s jazz.” ...Oscar Peterson “As long as there is democracy, there will be people wanting to play jazz because nothing else will ever so perfectly capture the democratic process in sound. Jazz means working things out musically with other people. You have to listen to other musicians and play with them even if you don’t agree with what they’re playing. It teaches you the very opposite of racism and anti-Semitism. It teaches you that the world is big enough to accommodate us all.” ...Wynton Marsalis “Jazz is the only music in which the same note can be played night after night but differently each time.” ...Ornette Coleman “It’s like a language. You learn the alphabet, which are the scales. You learn sentences, which are the chords. And then you talk extemporaneously with the horn. It’s a wonderful thing to speak extemporaneously, which is something I’ve never gotten the hang of. But musically I love to talk just off the top of my head. And that’s what jazz music is all about.” ...Stan Getz “Good jazz is when the leader jumps on the piano, waves his arms, and yells. Fine jazz is when a tenorman lifts his foot in the air. Great jazz is when he heaves a piercing note for 32 bars and collapses on his hands and knees. A pure genius of jazz is manifested when he and the rest of the orchestra runaround the room while the rhythm section grimaces and dances around their instruments.” ...Charles Mingus “A jazz musician is a juggler who uses harmonies instead of oranges.” ...Benny Green “I never thought that the music called “jazz” was ever meant to reach just a small group of people, or become a museum thing locked under glass like all the other dead things that were once considered artistic.” ...Miles Davis “The memory of things gone is important to a jazz musician. Things like old folks singing in the moonlight in the back yard on a hot night or something said long ago.” ...Louis Armstrong On improvisation... “Life is a lot like jazz. . . it’s best when you improvise. . .” ...George Gershwin “It’s performing without any really set basis for the lines and the content as such emotionally or, specifically, musically. And if you sit down and contemplate what you’re going to do, and take five hours to write five minutes of music, then it’s composed music. Therefore I would put it in the classical or serious, whatever you want to call it, written-music category. So there’s composed music and there’s jazz. And to me anybody that makes music using the process that we are using in Jazz, is playing Jazz.” ...Bill Evans “You have to practice improvisation, let no one kid you about it!” ...Art Tatum “In fifteen seconds the difference between composition and improvisation is that in composition you have all the time you want to decide what to say in fifteen seconds, while in improvisation you have fifteen seconds.” ...Steve Lacy “. . .this is my dilemma. I’m a guy who makes things up as I go along so nothing is ever finished-there are so many layers. So when you solo, yeah, you might get into one thing, but then, hey, everything has implications! You can hear the next level. And that’s how I feel about improvising-there’s always another level.” ...Sonny Rollins Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal RecordsThis could be one of the best posts on one of my threads ever. I know. I know--that's not saying much. But I really enjoyed this!  | |
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Lammastide said: First, I didn't mean to insinuate YOU'VE been snobbish in the things you've posted so far. But I do think there's a certain snobbery by many jazz types in denying the very genre of certain pieces of music based simply on the musical pedigree of the artist or on the fact the piece doesn't meet their own subjective artistic standards. I respect personal taste, but that gauge, by itself, is horribly uncharitable and stifling in so many cases both to performers and to various genres. And because jazz is ever-expansive, at a certain point that subjectivity can even be looked back on sometimes as downright laughable: As Sandino cited, for example, with a completely uncommitted -- and adjustable-at-will -- personal "approximation" of jazz, our boy Wynton is ultimately so given to his own personal biases that he would tell the world Bitches Brew is "not-jazz."  I'd be happy to hear his reasoning, but that's gonna be a darned hard sell to anyone aside from himself... and maybe Ken Burns. Agreed. Regarding Wynton, check these quotes... “I really liked Wynton [Marsalis] when I first met him. He’s still a nice young man, only confused.” ...Miles Davis And these scathing ones from... "I've never heard anything Wynton played sound like it meant anything at all. Wynton has no voice and no presence. His music sounds like a talented high-school trumpet player to me. He plays things really, really,really badly that you cannot screw up unless you are a bad player. " "Behind his humble speech, there is an incredible arrogance. And for a great black player who talks about the blues - I've never heard Wynton play the blues convincingly, and I'd challenge him to a blues standoff any time. He's jazzy the same way someone who drives a BMW is sporty" ...Keith Jarrett So you see even among those with an unquestionable Jazz pedigree there's disagreement as what is or isn't Jazz. You'd also have to include Stanley "The Grouch" Crouch in the Marsalis/Burns camp. All this leads me to believe that an easier question to answer would be What was JAZZ?. Now, I'll repeat: Prince is hardly a "jazz musician." You'll never hear me humor that insanity. But the forays on the albums I mentioned fit (even if not in an altogether masterful sense) just about every definition I've seen given for jazz here or elsewhere. And they do satisfy the sort of visceral recognition you (correctly) mention. They aren't the sugary, sentimental easy listening/R&B trash we hear on Quiet Storm stations or even the exhaustingly repetitious stuff of some earlier Madhouse numbers. He's gotten better.
I'll give you that. However, the tracks on N.E.W.S. specifically, sound more like Funk-Rock jams than any Jazz or Jazz-hybrid forms. Now i've got nothing against Prince or whatever type of music he decides to get into. That's his business. I guess it's just a bit disturbing when you hear statements like the one Sandino brought up ("OMG Prince is a jazz artist") from the sycophant society who wouldn't know Louis Armstrong from Petey Wheatstraw. However if this leads at least some of them to research the artists who are historic Jazz icons, then it's all worth it. Onto Prince vs. Weather Report... (What did I get myself into?
 ) I'll admit: Trapped in the Canadian tundra with the choice of either Heavy Weather or, say, C-Note, Prince's stuff would become kindling without a second thought. But while I agree no jazz efforts he's dreamed up can touch "Birdland" from not only a compositional standpoint, but technical, improvisational, yada yada yada.... I'd dare say a decent amount of P's stuff can easily hold a candle to things like "A Remark You Made" or "Harlequin" (both of which I love, BTW). If I consider another Heavy Weather track, "The Juggler," I'd even say I'd much rather spend time mentally unpacking things like Prince's "Nagoya," anything from N.E.W.S or even something outside his "formal" jazz repertoire like "Alexa De Paris," all of which I think are smarter written pieces.Well again, i'll have to respectfully disagree and i'll just deal with one reason why. For me there's a major element missing in the Prince tunes you've mention versus those specific Weather Report pieces. (Harlequin? One of my favorite Wayne Shorter penned WR tunes!  )
One of the major things a musician tries to accomplish, at some point in their development, is to establish their own unique "signature voice" (as a player and a writer). Regardless of the WR tune you might select, when you hear the keyboard sound (if you didn't know who the band was) you recognize Joe Zawinul. The same would apply when you heard the saxophone, that's Wayne Shorter. Compositionally, it's the same thing. If I heard those Prince tunes, without knowing who the artist was in advance, there's no way I would guess it was him. Think about B.B. King's guitar, Miles Davis' horn or vocalists like Mahalia Jackson or even Chaka Khan. They only have to play/sing 2 or 3 notes and you immediately know who you're listening to even if you're unfamiliar with the song they happen to be playing/singing. Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal Records"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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theAudience said: Well again, i'll have to respectfully disagree and i'll just deal with one reason why. For me there's a major element missing in the Prince tunes you've mention versus those specific Weather Report pieces. (Harlequin? One of my favorite Wayne Shorter penned WR tunes! )
One of the major things a musician tries to accomplish, at some point in their development, is to establish their own unique "signature voice" (as a player and a writer). Regardless of the WR tune you might select, when you hear the keyboard sound (if you didn't know who the band was) you recognize Joe Zawinul. The same would apply when you heard the saxophone, that's Wayne Shorter. Compositionally, it's the same thing. If I heard those Prince tunes, without knowing who the artist was in advance, there's no way I would guess it was him. Think about B.B. King's guitar, Miles Davis' horn or vocalists like Mahalia Jackson or even Chaka Khan. They only have to play/sing 2 or 3 notes and you immediately know who you're listening to even if you're unfamiliar with the song they happen to be playing/singing. I think there are certain guitar licks that might give Prince's playing away. But I'll have to agree his jazz compositions (even as I think they're proficient) are not particularly "hallmark" stuff. In P's defense, though...  ... I wonder if this is in part because jazz isn't his raison d'etre (despite what some folk imagine). If he took up the genre full-time, I imagine he'd begin to develop a voice in his writing. His standard work is definitely discernible sight unseen.Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.” | |
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Lammastide said: I think there are certain guitar licks that might give Prince's playing away. But I'll have to agree his jazz compositions (even as I think they're proficient) are not particularly "hallmark" stuff.
In P's defense, though... ... I wonder if this is in part because jazz isn't his raison d'etre (despite what some folk imagine). If he took up the genre full-time, I imagine he'd begin to develop a voice in his writing. His standard work is definitely discernible sight unseen.Imo, his rhythm guitar technique and his vocals are his current signature. You may be right about "If he took up the genre full-time". But think about the sycophant society fallout if he did.
I get the impression they're not too partial to that genre. Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal Records[Edited 12/11/09 6:24am] "Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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I hate when Prince is doing jazz... and hiphop. Yuuuck!!!
I hate those 2 genres. 
just give me pop, rock, funk and soul.... 
no jazz.  Prince 4Ever. | |
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TD3 said: I thought I could try to define or explain what Jazz is and I came to these 3 conclusions.
1) I'd go crazy 2) Get kicked and banned from prince.org for hogging up and taking over Non-Prince Forum. 3) Become a recluse and go through upteem computers and HD's trying to write a rambling explanation only to find I've written an encoherent diatribe.
For me, Dr.Taylor's explanation is the most thoughful and conherent answer to date.... 'What is Jazz'? There is no definitive answer, the history of Jazz really is an analogy of the American experience regardless of how we came to be here. The nations history and the stories of it's people is complex and the music represents this. I try to stay away from these types of discussions; I've been in too many where tempers have flared and folks have stopped speaking to one another. I've reconciled to answer the question in my own way. Duke Ellington once said, "There were only two kinds of music good and bad". Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart once said about porn, "I know it when I see it". What's Jazz? "I know it when I hear it".
===== Nice conclusion.
Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal Records"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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theAudience said: Lammastide said: I think there are certain guitar licks that might give Prince's playing away. But I'll have to agree his jazz compositions (even as I think they're proficient) are not particularly "hallmark" stuff.
In P's defense, though... ... I wonder if this is in part because jazz isn't his raison d'etre (despite what some folk imagine). If he took up the genre full-time, I imagine he'd begin to develop a voice in his writing. His standard work is definitely discernible sight unseen.Imo, his rhythm guitar technique and his vocals are his current signature. You may be right about "If he took up the genre full-time". But think about the sycophant society fallout if he did.
I get the impression they're not to partial to that genre. Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal RecordsAnything to get that group going. They keep us smiling.
Thanks for the conversation, tA. I always get a lot out of your comments. Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.” | |
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Sandino said: I'm not a homosexual, but well, after that beautiful post tA, I'm yours. Hmmmm, not sure what the little woman will think about that but thanks. 
Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal Records"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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Imago said: This could be one of the best posts on one of my threads ever. I know. I know--that's not saying much. But I really enjoyed this! Cool, well here's a few more. Because of (early jazz writers) lack of understanding of the mechanics of music, they thought there weren't any mechanics. It was the "they all can sing, they all have rhythm" syndrome. If that was the case, why was there only one Louis Armstrong? ...Wynton Marsalis Jazz is a mental attitude rather than a style. It uses a certain process of the mind expressed spontaneously through some musical instrument. I'm concerned with retaining that process. ...Bill Evans One thing I like about jazz, kid, is that I don't know what's going to happen next. Do you? ...Bix Beiderbecke My own feelings about the direction in which jazz should go are that there should be much less stress on technical exhibitionism and much more on emotional content, on what might be termed humanity in music and the freedom to say all that you want. ...Booker Little Improvisation is the ability to talk to oneself. ...Cecil Taylor Jazz is like a great void, it waits patiently until a brave musician takes control of space and time. ...Chris Griffin Jazz is a feeling, more than anything else. It isn't music, it's language... ...Enos Payne ...to me if it's anything, jazz is a verb-it's more like a process than it is a thing. ...Pat Metheny Jazz is an art form that depends on its antecedents, there must be respect for the people that have gone before. ...Jon Hendricks Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal Records"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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Lammastide said: theAudience said: Imo, his rhythm guitar technique and his vocals are his current signature. You may be right about "If he took up the genre full-time". But think about the sycophant society fallout if he did.
I get the impression they're not too partial to that genre. Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal RecordsAnything to get that group going. They keep us smiling.
Thanks for the conversation, tA. I always get a lot out of your comments. Same here. 
We should do this more often. Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal Records"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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Some random thoughts that came to me when reading this thread title -
IMO 'jazz' is a catch-all name for a lot of old pop music from the 1920s to 1940's, which has maintained a toe-hold in the music industry by getting more and more 'niche-market' since the mid-'40s be bop explosion. Bop, along with the 'commercial swing' of the '30s-'40s, probably first stylistically/ idealogically 'fractured' jazz/ New Orleans jazz, polarizing it, giving us everything from Frank Sinatra to Frank Zappa . Though that 'fracturing' can also be seen as 'progress' or diversification or making music in your own image in your own place and time rather than just copying.
I mean, what does the music of Louis Armstrong and Joe Zawinul have in common? Swing? Improvisation? A similar 'historical aesthetic'? I'm not sure what happened that led to Weather Report being considered 'jazz' but not really Jimi Hendrix or Mississipi bluesmen who never played the same song the same way twice. I think critical and fan snobbery may be part of the answer ... Louis IMO has more in common musically and culturally with blues artists like Bessie Smith, BB King and John Lee Hooker - southern black soul that kicks ya in yer heart and feet at the same time, sometimes wearing overalls, later maybe headin' uptown in a tuxedo - the same cultural tradition that later brought us Ray Charles, James Brown, Little Richard and many more. I would call Louis probably the first great black American pop star, capable of working in his native New Orleans jazz, blues, big band, traditional ballad styles and beyond. Pops in the '20s-'30s was part of the cutting-edge of the pop(ular) music of his era. Louis quoted/ sampled popular songs, spirituals, opera arias, funeral dirges, novelty songs and more and merged them all into his own unique style. Music is music, jazz IMO is simply a convenient way of describing and marketing the music of many of Louis Armstrong's musical peers and followers. That for me is the spirit that links up artists as diverse as Ellington, Miles Davis, Nat King Cole, John Coltrane, Sun Ra and Thelonius Monk. Well, that and a certain rhythmic/ harmonic sensibility. If I had to describe jazz in two words, those words would be - Louis Armstrong. To enlarge, sophisticated African American music that enjoys itself while reaching up for the stars and down into the soul. I doubt the Louis of 1923 would have viewed himself as a 'jazz' artist with all the aesthetic ideals that later meant to people like Ellington, Ornette, Mingus etc, but more as a musician/ aspiring entertainer trying to make a buck in a hard, competitive, racist entertainment world. He was a great ENTERTAINER who happened to become the main artistic nucleus of a new commercial and artistic music form that touched millions around the globe. Jazz IMO, at it's core is 'sophisticated blues', which sounds like a Duke Ellington song title . Now, over the years, this has blended with everything from plastic soul to gypsy folk music. I don't know what all that is 'called', but for me, anything that comes from the influence of Armstrong and the illustrious predecessors who helped make him, might as well be known as JAZZ.
I think maybe 'jazz' went wrong when it started to ghetto-ise itself as 'jazz', falling for the industry categorisation and then withering into commercial mush or obscurity. Or maybe its practictioners were/ are just too contrary to be categorised by the industry hence its marginalisation .
As for Prince, well, he got some jazz in him from his parents and from some sounds he dug from '70s jazz fusion. He likes to dabble in jazzy stuff, being the musical polymath he is. Whether you like it, or what you wanna call, are different things .
I for one think his Rainbow Chillun/Xpectation/C-NOTE/ One Nite Alone era has to be his best in this decade and one of the best in his whole career. It sounds more questing and 'meant' than most of his other recent-ish stuff. Maybe both his parents passing around that time sparked something off in him ... Oh and for the record, I think Wynton Marsalis is a far better jazz educator (well up to 1965 anyway) than artist. Oh and Miles and Duke never dug that 'jazz' word anyway, maybe 'cos it limited them creatively and financially, not to mention racially/ culturally. Anyway, it's all pop to me. | |
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Miles said: Some random thoughts that came to me when reading this thread title -
IMO 'jazz' is a catch-all name for a lot of old pop music from the 1920s to 1940's, which has maintained a toe-hold in the music industry by getting more and more 'niche-market' since the mid-'40s be bop explosion. Bop, along with the 'commercial swing' of the '30s-'40s, probably first stylistically/ idealogically 'fractured' jazz/ New Orleans jazz, polarizing it, giving us everything from Frank Sinatra to Frank Zappa . Though that 'fracturing' can also be seen as 'progress' or diversification or making music in your own image in your own place and time rather than just copying.
I mean, what does the music of Louis Armstrong and Joe Zawinul have in common? Swing? Improvisation? A similar 'historical aesthetic'? I'm not sure what happened that led to Weather Report being considered 'jazz' but not really Jimi Hendrix or Mississipi bluesmen who never played the same song the same way twice. I think critical and fan snobbery may be part of the answer ... Louis IMO has more in common musically and culturally with blues artists like Bessie Smith, BB King and John Lee Hooker - southern black soul that kicks ya in yer heart and feet at the same time, sometimes wearing overalls, later maybe headin' uptown in a tuxedo - the same cultural tradition that later brought us Ray Charles, James Brown, Little Richard and many more. I would call Louis probably the first great black American pop star, capable of working in his native New Orleans jazz, blues, big band, traditional ballad styles and beyond. Pops in the '20s-'30s was part of the cutting-edge of the pop(ular) music of his era. Louis quoted/ sampled popular songs, spirituals, opera arias, funeral dirges, novelty songs and more and merged them all into his own unique style. Music is music, jazz IMO is simply a convenient way of describing and marketing the music of many of Louis Armstrong's musical peers and followers. That for me is the spirit that links up artists as diverse as Ellington, Miles Davis, Nat King Cole, John Coltrane, Sun Ra and Thelonius Monk. Well, that and a certain rhythmic/ harmonic sensibility. If I had to describe jazz in two words, those words would be - Louis Armstrong. To enlarge, sophisticated African American music that enjoys itself while reaching up for the stars and down into the soul. I doubt the Louis of 1923 would have viewed himself as a 'jazz' artist with all the aesthetic ideals that later meant to people like Ellington, Ornette, Mingus etc, but more as a musician/ aspiring entertainer trying to make a buck in a hard, competitive, racist entertainment world. He was a great ENTERTAINER who happened to become the main artistic nucleus of a new commercial and artistic music form that touched millions around the globe. Jazz IMO, at it's core is 'sophisticated blues', which sounds like a Duke Ellington song title . Now, over the years, this has blended with everything from plastic soul to gypsy folk music. I don't know what all that is 'called', but for me, anything that comes from the influence of Armstrong and the illustrious predecessors who helped make him, might as well be known as JAZZ.
I think maybe 'jazz' went wrong when it started to ghetto-ise itself as 'jazz', falling for the industry categorisation and then withering into commercial mush or obscurity. Or maybe its practictioners were/ are just too contrary to be categorised by the industry hence its marginalisation .
As for Prince, well, he got some jazz in him from his parents and from some sounds he dug from '70s jazz fusion. He likes to dabble in jazzy stuff, being the musical polymath he is. Whether you like it, or what you wanna call, are different things .
I for one think his Rainbow Chillun/Xpectation/C-NOTE/ One Nite Alone era has to be his best in this decade and one of the best in his whole career. It sounds more questing and 'meant' than most of his other recent-ish stuff. Maybe both his parents passing around that time sparked something off in him ... Oh and for the record, I think Wynton Marsalis is a far better jazz educator (well up to 1965 anyway) than artist. Oh and Miles and Duke never dug that 'jazz' word anyway, maybe 'cos it limited them creatively and financially, not to mention racially/ culturally. Anyway, it's all pop to me. ^^^Great takes Miles. (glad to see you back) The marketing spin is a very good observation Miles Davis got hip to this and stopped calling his music Jazz. I willing to bet that seeing Jimi and Sly play to huge concert crowds was one of the contributing factors to him dropping the term. Because the term has become so nebulous over time, as an artist it can become a serious liability if you've got the "Jazz" tag. Even this thread shows that it means different things to different people and not neccessarily The Jazz you're trying to portray. Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal Records"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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theAudience said:[quote]^^^Great takes Miles. (glad to see you back)
The marketing spin is a very good observation Miles Davis got hip to this and stopped calling his music Jazz. I willing to bet that seeing Jimi and Sly play to huge concert crowds was one of the contributing factors to him dropping the term. Because the term has become so nebulous over time, as an artist it can become a serious liability if you've got the "Jazz" tag. Even this thread shows that it means different things to different people and not neccessarily The Jazz you're trying to portray./quote] Nice to be back tA .
It's always good fun trying to nail a definition on something as subjective and nebulous as music.It'll be fun occasionally dipping into the madness of the Org again. We've got musical minds to broaden .[Edited 12/14/09 13:02pm] | |
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People who say something is or isn't jazz are trying to define it based on personal taste and style more than trying to give you a true definition. What they're usually saying is that it isn't good music but is may still be jazz.
One defining characteristic of jazz is about improvisation, so Kenny G really is jazz. But people with decent taste might say he's not jazz, because there is nothing challenging about it, or that the songs themselves ma resemble pop songs in their style. But traditional jazz was pop in its day, so I don't buy this. Miles covered plenty of pop tunes. Purists said what Miles Davis did in 1970 was rock, or pop. But that's utterly ridiculous. It sounds nothing like pop music. Those people are defining jazz by style, rather than the spirit of the music itself. The fact is, it's not so easily defined by what chords you use or what instruments you use. If you define it that way, you are confining it. In essence, I believe jazz is about freedom, which makes a definition that much harder to come by. [Edited 12/14/09 13:17pm] My Legacy
http://prince.org/msg/8/192731 | |
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NDRU said: But traditional jazz was pop in its day, so I don't buy this. Miles covered plenty of pop tunes.
I'm glad you brought that up. This is a subject that needs its own thread. It goes to the heart of the argument that "music today doesn't stand up to whatever time period you care to use". This discussion will generally bog down due to the musical myopia of one's youth. Now to those who enjoy researching music history, and let's just narrow it down to Pop music history, it becomes a very obvious answer. In essence, I believe jazz is about freedom, which makes a definition that much harder to come by.
“Put it this way: Jazz is a good barometer of freedom… In its beginnings, the United States of America spawned certain ideals of freedom and independence through which, eventually, jazz was evolved, and the music is so free that man people say it is the only unhampered, unhindered expression of complete freedom yet produced in this country.” ...Duke Ellington You're in good company.
Music for adventurous listeners tA Tribal Records"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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Are the jazz movements in latin America, Asia and Africa based off those originating in America, or are they movements that sprung up independently.
I need to find a good book on jazz. | |
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