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PrintableBlaqueKnight said: Militant said: Kurt was absolutely a musical genius. He had the vision to meld the raw attitude and underground punk mentality that was overly concerened with credibility, with the pop sensibilities of The Beatles, which nobody else in the post-punk or early grunge scene would have done as they didn't consider it to be very cool - the end result of this is that Kurt wrote some VERY memorable and amazing songs and all his scenefriends remained underground.And he was not afraid to give props to other artists he loved - how many people that only got into Nirvana after Kurt died would have heard of people like The Vaselines, Shonen Knife, The Melvins, The Frogs, if it were not for Kurt?
The MTV Unplugged show alone is proof of his genius, you combine that with two stellar albums (Nevermind and In Utero) and the fact that his music has helped literally millions of people who have felt alone and angry at their situation, and yes - he was a genius. I love Dave Grohl's character and there's no doubting he's a great musician - but he has yet to write a single song that can move me or stir my emotions as much as Kurt did. You're romanticizing how it was. I was there. Kurt was about as much of a genius as Puff Daddy. Then again, there are some people who call Puffy a genius, too. I suppose its all about interpretation. Kurt stayed fucked up. puff daddy bastardized other people's songs. cobain wrote his from scratch. clearly there was something about what sean combs was doing that people liked, but i would not put his level of effort on the same playing field as someone who came up with their own words and melodies, and performed those songs by singing and playing instruments with their own hands. i mean, come on now. | |
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Anxiety said: BlaqueKnight said: You're romanticizing how it was. I was there. Kurt was about as much of a genius as Puff Daddy. Then again, there are some people who call Puffy a genius, too. I suppose its all about interpretation. Kurt stayed fucked up. puff daddy bastardized other people's songs. cobain wrote his from scratch. clearly there was something about what sean combs was doing that people liked, but i would not put his level of effort on the same playing field as someone who came up with their own words and melodies, and performed those songs by singing and playing instruments with their own hands. i mean, come on now. Kurt's playing was highly, highly, higly overrated. He wrote what he wrote but I mean "come on" - lots of people can pick up a guitar and detune it and play some chords but that doesn't make them "geniuses", which is such an overused and overrated term. As for 90s Seattle grunge, that whole scene was one big drugged out mess. | |
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Kurt definetly was!! | |
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BlaqueKnight said: Anxiety said: puff daddy bastardized other people's songs. cobain wrote his from scratch. clearly there was something about what sean combs was doing that people liked, but i would not put his level of effort on the same playing field as someone who came up with their own words and melodies, and performed those songs by singing and playing instruments with their own hands. i mean, come on now. Kurt's playing was highly, highly, higly overrated. He wrote what he wrote but I mean "come on" - lots of people can pick up a guitar and detune it and play some chords but that doesn't make them "geniuses", which is such an overused and overrated term. As for 90s Seattle grunge, that whole scene was one big drugged out mess. 
I don't get it whats the fuss,,,,,and I'm in no rush to, honestly. | |
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BlaqueKnight said: Anxiety said: puff daddy bastardized other people's songs. cobain wrote his from scratch. clearly there was something about what sean combs was doing that people liked, but i would not put his level of effort on the same playing field as someone who came up with their own words and melodies, and performed those songs by singing and playing instruments with their own hands. i mean, come on now. Kurt's playing was highly, highly, higly overrated. He wrote what he wrote but I mean "come on" - lots of people can pick up a guitar and detune it and play some chords but that doesn't make them "geniuses", which is such an overused and overrated term. As for 90s Seattle grunge, that whole scene was one big drugged out mess. oh, i have no intention of defending the grunge genre/craze of the 90s. i loathed about 99.9% of that stuff, even though (interestingly enough) i think those years were a GREAT time for other kinds of alternative music...i mean, i was hearing stuff like the cramps and NIN on mainstream radio, so if it took some crappy candlebox or pearl jam to make something like that happen, then it was a small price to pay. 
i mean, can you imagine the rollins band "liar" being a top 40 hit in this day and age? did those years really HAPPEN? 
anyway. about kurt. ya know, what can i tell you. i think his lyrics are fantastic. they struck a very emotional chord in me and they still do. and it's not about drugs. i've never done hard drugs in my life. never wanted to. i think he had a dark humor that coincided with a heartbreaking sadness. i loved that he took so many opportunities to give shout-outs to obscure indie bands that he loved, and to go so far as to have the meat puppets on the nirvana MTV unplugged. i loved that he laughed at the grunge trend and covered songs by bands like the raincoats and shocking blue. i also loved that he was a mainstream "hard rock" star and he was constantly very outspoken in his support of the gay community. he was a breath of fresh air to many people. just because he wasn't to you doesn't negate anything. | |
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Kurt Cobain obviously gets some of that collateral hate from that whole grunge experience.
But to me he rises above all that -- as has been said already here multiple times -- through his considerable songwriting skills. That people pay reverence to him in almost every conceivable way is rather twisted, but it shouldn't diminish his amazing albums. | |
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Tempation said: oh god
i would consider him the opposite a person who set back rock n roll and its finally recovering after 15 years I agree, he and his whole genre was only interested in mocking rock and roll and doing away with it. In large part, between hip hop and grunge, they did. Being a lifetime seattlelite I have no special affinity for Kurt, never really listened to his stuff and never bought his little whiny angst ridden act. Me and one of my best friends sat watching MTV after his death and we got angry, angry because these whiteboys have the nerve to act cheated and angry, in that moment we had actual hate in us. Our feelings were "they don't know what it is to be oppressed so they need to shut the fuck up". When you've studied all the greats from Cab Calloway on down to Michael and Prince and you see some dirty guy singing some really good songs, it's not enough to really impress you. He was a good songwriter, that's where I leave it in my mind. I hate how this country always has to have the golden whiteboy to restore the natural balance of things, that's changing but not fast enough. There was so much gloating over how Cobain kicked MJ off the number one spot as if that had some overall significance. Michael could kick Kurts ass in the the pain and anxiety and loneliness deptartments and did with his darkest lyrics. If that's what the public wanted, Michael had it on Dangerous, some really dark prophetic shit. But what they wanted was that golden whiteboy. And let me say another thing, it's laughable when our local newspapers consistently rank Cobain over Hendrix, it's an insult in every way. Jimi was a true genius, as a songwriter, as a musician. As much as I love and adore Bruce Springsteen (he's my all time fave) I even felt that he was used in the eighties in this societies conscience to balance out the unseen megastardom of first Michael and then Prince. At least the pain in his songs was genuine and experienced, not imagined and used as a posture, he was the real deal at least. | |
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Anxiety said: BlaqueKnight said: You're romanticizing how it was. I was there. Kurt was about as much of a genius as Puff Daddy. Then again, there are some people who call Puffy a genius, too. I suppose its all about interpretation. Kurt stayed fucked up. puff daddy bastardized other people's songs. cobain wrote his from scratch. . I think Killing Joke would disagree with you on THAT front, after Kurt "borrowed" their song "Eighties" for "Come As You Are". This is not an exit | |
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I think Dave is pretty great, but not a genius. Can't wait to hear him, Josh Homme (who is a genius), and John Paul Jone's latest project Them Crooked Vultures.
http://www.youtube.com/us...edvultures It would have been interesting to see what direction Nirvana would have taken. Pearl Jam just got better so I have a feeling Nirvana would have done the same. | |
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Yes. | |
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I consider him the man that ruined rock 'n roll. | |
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RodeoSchro said: I consider him the man that ruined rock 'n roll.
or changed the face of rocknroll hip hop is rocknroll rocknroll is not just one kind of music but he sure put an end to hair metal and for that i will always be in great debt | |
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I don't believe Grunge or Hip-hop wanted to be seen as rock and roll. Hip-hop in it's early days did have some interesting roots in true rock music but Grunge had a whole attitude, snobby and superior towards anything that came before it. I'm telling you, i've known some of the guys around when it was happening, they, in no way shape or form wanted anything to do with the lineage going back to Elvis, Little Richard, Berry and Holly. I always hated it, it made it hard as hell for me to do a damn thing in seattle, I never played that shit. Even today you have a bunch of bands and musicians all over seattle, plenty of attitude, sometimes talent, sometimes not. The whole phoniness, smartass, posturing, cynical image has nothing to do with rock. Rock had an ethic it stood for something in it's purist forms, it had it's dark side but the idealism of it always was something vital, american and pure. This grunge and hip hop crap I never understood, just seems to stand for pure narcissism. | |
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RodeoSchro said: I consider him the man that ruined rock 'n roll.
you say that as if scott stapp or nickelback never happened.  | |
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rocknrolldave said: Anxiety said: puff daddy bastardized other people's songs. cobain wrote his from scratch. . I think Killing Joke would disagree with you on THAT front, after Kurt "borrowed" their song "Eighties" for "Come As You Are". yeah, well, i think prince ripped off t.rex with "cream", but that doesn't mean i think he's a rip-off artist in general.  | |
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Anxiety said: i think kurt was a genius songwriter. i think his lyrics were brilliant and i think he had a gift for melody. for me, "musical genius" is someone who's capable of delivering the whole package, who can write and perform and produce and can find their way around multiple instruments, etc. - to me, people like zappa or prince or bowie are musical geniuses. as much as i loved kurt and nirvana, i'd consider him more of a songwriting genius...which isn't to say i didn't think he was a great performer or musician...i just think his strengths were in his writing.
I think that about sums up the whole debate for me! In fact, I think his ear for melody was just out of the world, shame he could never reconcile that with the 'field' he thought he should belong to. Still, Nirvana made three albums to which I still have a lot of affection towards. Btw, I think a lot of KC detractors have a bigger problem with Grunge as a whole than with Cobain’s music. | |
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MrVortex said: Anxiety said: i think kurt was a genius songwriter. i think his lyrics were brilliant and i think he had a gift for melody. for me, "musical genius" is someone who's capable of delivering the whole package, who can write and perform and produce and can find their way around multiple instruments, etc. - to me, people like zappa or prince or bowie are musical geniuses. as much as i loved kurt and nirvana, i'd consider him more of a songwriting genius...which isn't to say i didn't think he was a great performer or musician...i just think his strengths were in his writing.
I think that about sums up the whole debate for me! In fact, I think his ear for melody was just out of the world, shame he could never reconcile that with the 'field' he thought he should belong to. Still, Nirvana made three albums to which I still have a lot of affection towards. Btw, I think a lot of KC detractors have a bigger problem with Grunge as a whole than with Cobain’s music. i agree, which is sadly ironic because he thought the whole grunge craze was ridiculous as well. i also think people have a hard time separating his life from his music. when i listen to "in utero" i don't think about the drugs or the suicide or courtney's crazy ass. i just hear a really good rock album. | |
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Anxiety said: i think kurt was a genius songwriter. i think his lyrics were brilliant and i think he had a gift for melody. for me, "musical genius" is someone who's capable of delivering the whole package, who can write and perform and produce and can find their way around multiple instruments, etc. - to me, people like zappa or prince or bowie are musical geniuses. as much as i loved kurt and nirvana, i'd consider him more of a songwriting genius...which isn't to say i didn't think he was a great performer or musician...i just think his strengths were in his writing.
people who are balking and making big proclamations about how untalented KC was are, in my opinion, protesting too much. you don't have to personally LIKE what an artist has done to acknowledge their accomplishments or the impact they made on the world outside your personal tastes. for example, i can't stand listening to 99% of bob dylan's work, but i know i'd be an idiot to say he was untalented. i LOATHE morrissey, but there are tons of fans who say that's more my problem than the rest of the world's. i know these people have made great contributions to music and are, on some level, brilliant - even if *I* don't personally like them. i'm just sayin' consider that for a moment before you go casting stones and whatnot. co-sign | |
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Why do people hate grunge so much? I love it? "Lack of home training crosses all boundaries." | |
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scriptgirl said: Why do people hate grunge so much? I love it?
I do too and personally - I think some people think they're above it. They criticise the technical abilities of someone like Kurt's playing and miss the point of it completely. That's clearly not what it was about. Anxiety said: anyway. about kurt. ya know, what can i tell you. i think his lyrics are fantastic. they struck a very emotional chord in me and they still do. and it's not about drugs. i've never done hard drugs in my life. never wanted to. i think he had a dark humor that coincided with a heartbreaking sadness. i loved that he took so many opportunities to give shout-outs to obscure indie bands that he loved, and to go so far as to have the meat puppets on the nirvana MTV unplugged. i loved that he laughed at the grunge trend and covered songs by bands like the raincoats and shocking blue. i also loved that he was a mainstream "hard rock" star and he was constantly very outspoken in his support of the gay community. he was a breath of fresh air to many people. just because he wasn't to you doesn't negate anything.
well said. [Edited 8/26/09 19:32pm] |
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moderatorscriptgirl said: Why do people hate grunge so much? I love it?
The problem I have with classifying Nirvana as grunge is that Nirvana didn't take their influences from Neil Young or other sources that the other supposed 'grunge' bands like Pearl Jam, SOund Garden, and Alice in Chains (really just an updated/reformed hair band to me). Cobain got much of his musical chops from attending the punk rock scene of the pacific northwest. He often viewed the other Seattle bands with disgust. Bleach & Nevermind were 'dumbed' down by Cobain with pressure from his music label to sound more 'grunge', but if left up to Cobain, they probably would have been closer to In Utero. Despite the minimal, silly lyrics of Bleach, Nirvana's other albums often reveal some of the most clever lyrics I've ever heard from a song writer. Cobain could pull a sentence as delicate as Peter Murphy, as to the point as Vic Chestnut, but throw it over dissonant guitar noise like Bauhaus or Joy Division. I know they blew up and practically derailed everything on radio for one hot minute in the 90s, but that doesn't mean some of their success wasn't based on the fact that he can be a damned good song writer. | |
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Despite everything Dave has done with Foo Fighters - he is still best known as the drummer in Nirvana
Most people I know had no idea he was in the band. | |
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Militant said: Kurt was absolutely a musical genius. He had the vision to meld the raw attitude and underground punk mentality that was overly concerened with credibility, with the pop sensibilities of The Beatles, which nobody else in the post-punk or early grunge scene would have done as they didn't consider it to be very cool - the end result of this is that Kurt wrote some VERY memorable and amazing songs and all his scenefriends remained underground.And he was not afraid to give props to other artists he loved - how many people that only got into Nirvana after Kurt died would have heard of people like The Vaselines, Shonen Knife, The Melvins, The Frogs, if it were not for Kurt?
The MTV Unplugged show alone is proof of his genius, you combine that with two stellar albums (Nevermind and In Utero) and the fact that his music has helped literally millions of people who have felt alone and angry at their situation, and yes - he was a genius. I love Dave Grohl's character and there's no doubting he's a great musician - but he has yet to write a single song that can move me or stir my emotions as much as Kurt did. She eyes me like a pisces when I am weak I've been locked inside your Heart Shaped box, for weeks I've been drawn into your magnet tar pit trap I wish I could eat your cancer when you turn black Hey! Wait! I've got a new complaint Forever in debt to your priceless advice (repeat 3 times) ...your advice Meat-eating orchids forgive no one just yet Cut myself on Angel Hair and baby's breath Broken hymen of your highness I'm left black Throw down your umbilical noose so I can climb right back .... I love those lyrics. "Forever in debt to your priceless advice." 
I mean, one needs to remember before Nirvana we had to put up with Van Halen, Loverboy , and Trixter's cheery frat rock. Nirvana at least helped usher in an age where more interesting stuff ended up on the radio.....until Creed and Kid rock ruined EVERYTHING. | |
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BlaqueKnight said: Anxiety said: puff daddy bastardized other people's songs. cobain wrote his from scratch. clearly there was something about what sean combs was doing that people liked, but i would not put his level of effort on the same playing field as someone who came up with their own words and melodies, and performed those songs by singing and playing instruments with their own hands. i mean, come on now. Kurt's playing was highly, highly, higly overrated. He wrote what he wrote but I mean "come on" - lots of people can pick up a guitar and detune it and play some chords but that doesn't make them "geniuses", which is such an overused and overrated term. As for 90s Seattle grunge, that whole scene was one big drugged out mess. You may have heard the music, but you definitely weren't "listening." That said, I love Nirvana, and In Utero is still one of my favorite rock albums to this day, but no, I wouldn't call Kurt Cobain a genius. | |
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I mean, one needs to remember before Nirvana we had to put up with Van Halen, Loverboy , and Trixter's cheery frat rock.
Nirvana at least helped usher in an age where more interesting stuff ended up on the radio.....until Creed and Kid rock ruined EVERYTHING. [/quote]
You had to put up with Van Halen etc.., My heroes were Bruce Springsteen, Michael Jackson Prince, and all the rock Icons going back to Elvis. For me grunge was a tragic lowering of the bar for excellence, guys could get rewarded for not having much to offer. Kurt had his shit, but compared to a prince? Bruce? Get the fuck outta here. | |
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purplesweat said: Despite everything Dave has done with Foo Fighters - he is still best known as the drummer in Nirvana
Most people I know had no idea he was in the band. I'm with you on this. Yes Grohl was in Nirvana but i bet if you walked down the street and asked any rock fan who Dave Grohl is they'll tell you he's the singer in Foo Fighters. Sure they're gonna know he was the drummer in Nirvana but the Foo Fighters reference will come first. | |
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japanrocks said: RodeoSchro said: I consider him the man that ruined rock 'n roll.
or changed the face of rocknroll hip hop is rocknroll rocknroll is not just one kind of music but he sure put an end to hair metal and for that i will always be in great debt in didn't end it just took a break Poison,Def Leppard are drawing over 20,000 people in a lot of cities this summer and Motley Crue had a top 5 album in 08 and have toured with great success | |
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Bad taste never goes away "Lack of home training crosses all boundaries." | |
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No way!
I don't understand the fascination with the term "musical genius" anyway
To me a musical genius is someone that understands every aspect of music from the lyrics, vocals, production, arrangements and much more. And knows what would work well. It comes naturally for them. Musical Geniuses: James Brown, Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles, Prince, Maurice White. Robert Kelly (Yea, I said it!  ), Donny Hathaway, Duke Ellington. Kurt was just a great songwriter and vocalist but that's all he was. I don't recall reading that he ever produced any of the Nirvana albums just composed the lyrics for the majority of their material. And I don't believe there should be subtitles like lyrical genius, vocal genius, and etc. that's just ridiculous! Your either a musical genius or you're not. | |
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midiscover said: To me a musical genius is someone that understands every aspect of music from the lyrics, vocals, production, arrangements and much more.
since Mozart didn't sing personally and had his librettos written by others (like most classical composers), he wouldn't be considered a genius by above standards. so I respectfully disagree  Vanglorious... this is protected by the red, the black, and the green. With a key... sissy! | |
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