SoulAlive said:

yes.

But the point of my excercize is for folks to dig a bit deeper and determine why they like the artist.

If we matched Eminem against Everlast ultimately it would boil down to which white rapper somebody preffered based on a small scope of preferences.

But expanding the palette a bit to include two very capable and talented musicians who approach music differently, I think forces folks (who care to partake in the discussion anyway ) to examine why they chose who they chose and weigh this or that decision before making the choice.

The comparison does seem absurd to many I understand. But I'm curious to see how imaginative people can be in their decisions.


I do find the parodies of this thread hilarious though.
(yeah yeah, I know this thread is a parody of itself.)


.
[Edited 8/20/09 10:08am]

DakutiusMaximus said:

You got your feel good moment from SW by creating a temporary lighters in the air, We Are The World environment that doesn't really exist on a daily basis. It'd be nice if it did. Maybe one day.

However FZ knew that realistically most folks, regardless of any concert's feel good moment(s), will very quickly go right back to their normal world of every man for himself conformity.

Could it be that more nose-rubbing in hypocrisy that results in real societal change might make for longer lasting feel good moments that reach beyond a concert hall?

And for the most part, I think many that got labeled ass-hole by FZ, probably were.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

Brendan said:

Well, then he wouldn't be Frank Zappa.

Like your points, however i'm always curious when the term musical snobbery gets thrown at a musical artist (or listener for that matter).
Is it snobbery as an artist to use your musical talents to operate on the highest level you're capable of or as a listener to prefer those who do?
There are tons of artists that use the lowest common denominator method (not referring to SW here). Many because that's the best they can do and others because they may crave the benefits of popularity/celebrity.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

theAudience said:

Absolutely.

But what I’m trying to communicate is that no matter how wonderfully one has mastered their instrument, no matter how learned and steeped in degrees, no matter how serious they take their craft, or no matter if they can write musical score blindfolded underwater, this does not give someone the ability to tell good from bad.

It's a really good start, but I would argue that art appreciation requires a totally different skill set. Learned people have just as many biases as anyone else, it's just the more eloquent you can argue your point, the more those biases can be obscured.

If just being a certain type of musician made one the obvious choice as to whether to appreciate or not, then there would be so much less mediocrity in the world, as musicians would automatically be able to tell if something was bad and just not release it.

But it’ll never be that black and white, even with someone as mega talented as Frank Zappa.

I remember watching a taped Mike Douglas panel with 3 or 4 people on it, and Frank Zappa and Jimmy Walker were 2 of them. And you could tell that there was undue pressure to admit what music you were passionate for in front of Frank. Jimmy walker actually said that Joni Mitchell is probably "too sentimental for Frank", but somewhat sheepishly admitted that he enjoyed.

Frank also admitted to not liking The Beatles during a Larry King interview.

Now no one has to like either of these folks. You can be a brilliant musician and/or music listener and not like either in the least. That's not the point and that doesn't even come close to making one a musical snob.

What makes him at least partially so in my opinion is that he hasn't always shown that great music can exist outside of the things that he puts his stamp of approval on. I'm just saying that I would've appreciated even more humility.

But, as you say, without this persona, perhaps we don't get the full flavor and his catalog isn't as rich without this force to push against.

But I would argue that the man has enough talent that opening up his horizons further would hardly hurt his output.

But he seems far too smart to fall into these easy traps I'm describing. But it's there and people can feel it, including those who want to talk about what they enjoy around him. Yes, that's also insecurity on the part of everyone else who allows themselves to be embarrassed. But there's something more to it that just that. I think he likes that role more than just a little.

But that is a minor criticism, as I love the Zappa output exactly as it is and I'm not going to get greedy by dreaming about what an even wider Frank Zappa would create.

And by “wider” I’m not talking about lowering one’s ability, but rather opening one up to realizing that greatness is not defined by Zappa or me or anyone else.

And all apologizes for adding to a thread that seems to be the new blueprint for this forum.

Didn't Frank once say something to the effect that there's no such thing as "shit music" so long as any given kind of music sincerely effects even one person? Of course, that never stopped him from calling lots of music shitty, but it was a nice sentiment, if indeed he said that.

Anxiety said:

You're probably lying.

Anxiety said:

I don't know, but that would be an extremely cool sentiment.

But that begs the question, how narrowly did he choose to define "shit"?

tA, you bring up some good points and sorry if I offended you by "criticizing" one of your musical heroes. I just thought the 'show me your thumb' story might make for entertaining reading.

Maybe I went too far by saying I wasn't surprised that FZ died of colon cancer. That's my own belief that mental attitude plays an important part in one's physical health.

As to who had the more far reaching effect on his listeners (me included) I think you're right; Frank probably woke more people up to the importance of expressing their own authenticity and realizing where in their lives they were not.

And, if I look at my collection I see that FZ got way more money out of me than Stevie has. I own 5 SW discs and 12 FZ's.

Perhaps I could have made clearer that I thought a distinction should be made about listening to recorded music vs going to a live performance.

If I'm going to spend $40 or $50 to be entertained for an evening I think I'd perfer to get the Stevie feel good experience than the FZ nose rubbing treatment. Personal preference, I guess. I'm not much of a masochist.

I never went back to see FZ again after the figurative bitch slap treatment. It seemed immature and spiteful. I don't know what he was trying to prove with that. It seemed like a big 'fuck you' to the very people that had brought a lot of money into his life.

On the other hand one of the best shows I've ever seen was FZ and the Roxy & Elsewhere band with Napolean Murphy Brock on sax, dancing and lead vocals.

I also got to see the Mudshark performance with Flo and Eddie and the Jean Luc Ponty, Ruth Underwood, Steve Vai, Don Preston incarnation, and the Fowler brothers unit... it's all coming back to me now.

So I've got both good and bad memories of Frank... kinda like an intimate relationship. I was with him from Freak Out (I'm 60) right up through Joe's Garage and I saw 200 Motels 6 times.

I guess its time to forgive. This has been cathartic.

Thanks Imago for starting the thread and thanks tA for pressing back. There's not a lot of value in holding a grudge and my health will probably be all the better for forgiving.
[Edited 8/21/09 8:06am]

There is so much pain and anger on this thread.


so, so ,sooooo much.

Imago said:

That's what you get for starting such a thread, now you got a million SHOWDOWN imitations.

Timmy84 said:

Brendan said:

Without question.
You see, when he made those declarations, I never had the impression that he was doing anything other than giving his personal opinion.
In fact (and this goes to Anxiety's question below) in the Real Frank Zappa Book he states, "If it sounds GOOD to YOU, it's bitchen; and if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty."




Correct. And this would be valid if all "musicians" had the approach of Music As Art as opposed to Music As Commerce.
Two totally different mindsets. On very rare occasions the two are not mutually exclusive.



Again, I think he was voicing his personal opinion. And what I get from that scenario is (as you indicated) Jimmy Walker's lack of conviction in his personal opinion. Admittedly, it would take a lot of moxy to have a head-to-head debate with the quick witted Zappa.
But sometimes you just gotta say WTF and go for it!



To the contrary, no apologies necessary.
I think this particular one spawned a very good discussion for a change.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

DakutiusMaximus said:

Not even dude, we're just having a good back and forth talk here.

I have a great deal of respect for FZ but I don't put him (or any other musical entity for that matter) on a pedestal. I simply enjoy their music.
He is one of the very few that you might care what they have to say about music or other subjects. A rarity in this business.



Totally understandable.

I guess knowing about Zappa's background and his general contempt for the "Rock & Roll Concert Experience", one might expect something like that to happen.

My perspective is if I get a very competent musical performance out of any act i've paid money to see, then they've held up their part of the contract. Especially if they're not a "show" act.



If you hear him tell it, it's not as much cash as you would think.
Most of the income went right back into financing the tours and recordings that he knew wouldn't be huge commercial hits.



If it adds a day or more to your lifespan then it's been well worth it.

My appreciation for FZ, beyond the music, was his ability to set a musical course and have the integrity to stick to it regardless of the obstacles and lack of wide popularity.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

Not exactly on topic but coincidently I just saw an old video of FZ debating some establishment douchebags yesterday.

Check it: http://www.thedailybeast....rossfire-/

DakutiusMaximus said:

Yeah with the late Robert Novak.
I've seen that one a few times.
One of those talk over the opponent shows.

It would've been nice to see him have an actual discussion with an adversary like William F. Buckley, Jr.

Based on their current locations, maybe they're having it now.



tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

Imago said:

SUCK IT

Anxiety said:

Sometimes I wonder if you're a real person or an internet bot sending out randomly generated spam.

Imago said:

i've got your randomly generated spam right here, buddy.

theAudience said:

And I think that is a very enlightened attitude, if it’s not said in condescension.

And, certainly, this is mostly the insecurity of others. But he never seems to put them at ease, and that is the most perfect opportunity to not only be smart, but wise.

And in Frank’s defense, he might have done this countless times. But in everything that I've seen and heard from him so far, it doesn’t appear as though he would look at this as being even remotely a part of his responsibility. Too “touchy feely”.

But I’m not dreaming about an overly sentimental Frank, just someone that thinks the concept has validity as ballast.



I agree. To have one’s heart in the right place would be a great start for assuaging one’s personal truth.

But unless one is a mega hippy, I can’t believe that they’d think that everything that they create in honesty belongs in the same pile. I think that’s disrespectful to their own creations. Not to mention being far too steeped in ego. Even Picasso surely had those which he felt were more successful than others given his intent or how they turned out upon reflection. Those creations that on his death bed would bring him a slightly wider metaphorical smile.



I don’t think music snobbery is defined by how narrow one’s taste are, but rather how often these tastes step outside to prove their superiority.

And in that sense I think that we’re all musical snobs to one degree or another.

I’m just saying that at times due to Zappa’s rather significant talents that I have yearned for an even more expanded personal truth that would funnel more energy towards influence and away from conscious or subconscious eye rolling. And that could apply to every single one of us.

I hear a whole lot of truth from Frank Zappa, but thus far it’s not evenly balanced with self deprecation.

I’m not complaining just critiquing. And admittedly this might all be laughable shit, but it is my current, honest view.

And none of Frank's universe offends me in the least. I like this incredible Zappa ride exactly how it is, but sometimes my imagination plays tricks on me.