Wow, I avoided this thread because I thought it would just be a list of songs (boring), but actually y'all are having a serious discussion here? Damn.

Anyway. My thoughts. MJ was possibly the best song and dance man in history. I loved to hear him sing and watch him do his thing. I don't think he was as smart as Prince in changing his shows and varying his performance style, but nonetheless, in terms of just simply moving and singing on stage he was probably the best ever. My favourite recordings of his come from the '70s, particularly the ballads. Ironically, "With A Child's Heart" is one of my favourites (you know why that's ironic, right?). The songs were beautifully written and recorded then and Mike sang them beautifully (he was just a singer at that point).

In terms of his adult work as a writer/producer, I liken him to George Michael more than anyone else. That is the best comparison, not in terms of their outcomes, but in terms of their processes. Neither of them are really musicians in the strict sense, but they both were able to find the right grooves to fit their songs. Musically they were both extremely conventional, but effective. Neither of them were musical originals, but MJ got better results because he collaborated with greater producers than George (Quincy being the obvious example). George tended to work alone or with lesser producers and it shows. MJ was a much better singer, but George was a better lyricist and songwriter.

MJ is clearly not in P's league as a writer or musician. MJ's catalogue of quality work that he did by himself is extremely small and with only a few exceptions (like "Stranger In Moscow") it lacks the depth, complexity and sheer nerve of Prince's work. Prince also just produced a lot MORE great songs than MJ did, and if you're measuring greatness then quantity of great material is important.

But Prince fans need to realize that Prince will NEVER be as popular as MJ. MJ leaves behind a legacy of great videos and performances and in the modern era those visual records are just as significant as the songs. In terms of just sheer, immediate "Wow!" factor, P's videos don't have that and his dance sequences are not in MJ's league. Take the videos and dancing away from MJ and he wouldn't have sold half what he did.

You also need to recognise that success breeds success. Most potential Prince fans out there will never be exposed to him enough to find out what they're missing. By contrast, MJ gets so much HUGE publicity that it inevitably means he will get more fans. In the exposure war, NO-ONE will beat MJ. Of course, the mistake his fans make is to think that means he must be the best at everything. Not so. Elvis will always be more popular than James Brown and Chuck Berry (because he gets more exposure), but they will always be superior to him in terms of pure talent.

Also, Prince is too challenging and perverse as an artist and as a person to have that much mass appeal. MJ comes across as a much nicer guy (ironic when you consider what a deceitful and manipulative paedophile he actually was). Prince appeared naked on album covers and was seen as overtly gay by many. This will always limit his appeal. Prince's death will not be such a big deal, and only knowledgeable music lovers will remember him in future. MJ will be remembered by the masses more, even though he was not in Prince's league as an overall artist.

Wow, I avoided this thread because I thought it would just be a list of songs (boring), but actually y'all are having a serious discussion here? Damn.

Anyway. My thoughts. MJ was possibly the best song and dance man in history. I loved to hear him sing and watch him do his thing. I don't think he was as smart as Prince in changing his shows and varying his performance style, but nonetheless, in terms of just simply moving and singing on stage he was probably the best ever. My favourite recordings of his come from the '70s, particularly the ballads. Ironically, "With A Child's Heart" is one of my favourites (you know why that's ironic, right?). The songs were beautifully written and recorded then and Mike sang them beautifully (he was just a singer at that point).

In terms of his adult work as a writer/producer, I liken him to George Michael more than anyone else. That is the best comparison, not in terms of their outcomes, but in terms of their processes. Neither of them are really musicians in the strict sense, but they both were able to find the right grooves to fit their songs. Musically they were both extremely conventional, but effective. Neither of them were musical originals, but MJ got better results because he collaborated with greater producers than George (Quincy being the obvious example). George tended to work alone or with lesser producers and it shows. MJ was a much better singer, but George was a better lyricist and songwriter.

MJ is clearly not in P's league as a writer or musician. MJ's catalogue of quality work that he did by himself is extremely small and with only a few exceptions (like "Stranger In Moscow") it lacks the depth, complexity and sheer nerve of Prince's work. Prince also just produced a lot MORE great songs than MJ did, and if you're measuring greatness then quantity of great material is important.

But Prince fans need to realize that Prince will NEVER be as popular as MJ. MJ leaves behind a legacy of great videos and performances and in the modern era those visual records are just as significant as the songs. In terms of just sheer, immediate "Wow!" factor, P's videos don't have that and his dance sequences are not in MJ's league. Take the videos and dancing away from MJ and he wouldn't have sold half what he did.

You also need to recognise that success breeds success. Most potential Prince fans out there will never be exposed to him enough to find out what they're missing. By contrast, MJ gets so much HUGE publicity that it inevitably means he will get more fans. In the exposure war, NO-ONE will beat MJ. Of course, the mistake his fans make is to think that means he must be the best at everything. Not so. Elvis will always be more popular than James Brown and Chuck Berry (because he gets more exposure), but they will always be superior to him in terms of pure talent.

Also, Prince is too challenging and perverse as an artist and as a person to have that much mass appeal. MJ comes across as a much nicer guy (ironic when you consider what a deceitful and manipulative paedophile he actually was). Prince appeared naked on album covers and was seen as overtly gay by many. This will always limit his appeal. Prince's death will not be such a big deal, and only knowledgeable music lovers will remember him in future. MJ will be remembered by the masses more, even though he was not in Prince's league as an overall artist.

i would disagree greatly about comparing MJ to GM, but i can understand people maybe thinking like that as few people know how much input GM has on his records. if you check the credits you will see that GM plays most of the instruments on his albums, as well as writing everything (except the cover versions). he rarely has a writing partner. wham! only released two proper albums but had such an effect, and andrew ridgley has little to no credits as he did practically bugger all on them, he was mainly there like pepsi and shirley to front the band, paul wellers wife dc lee was one of the backing singers for wham! GM plays guitar, keys etc in the studio, but in concert he sticks to his vocals as he's mainly a vocalist and writer. he's an awful dancer and he admits and accepts this openly. so in the studio, GM writes, performs and sings, and onstage sings live and doesn't dance. he's the opposite to MJ live, who dances and lipsynchs. i don't think GM really gets the credit he deserves for his talent, it's overlooked as people just hear the music and enjoy it, and most of his fanbase don't care how it was created as it's pop music, and in the wham! days he tried to play down his creativity to appear to a young pop audience that just wanted good looks and poppy songs

i think MJ's career is closest to madonnas, as she relies on other people to create her music for her and relies on music videos to sell her music. likewise live she lipsynchs a lot and it's all about the show rather than live music. it's a shame that someone who is considered one of the greatest singers just didn't sing live at the concerts. anyone would think it was a waste of a talent if any other great vocalist didn't sing live and relied on prerecorded vocals. instead his most memorable performance was mimimg to billie jean at motown 25, and the most memorable part of that was a few short seconds of him moonwalking

i would disagree greatly about comparing MJ to GM, but i can understand people maybe thinking like that as few people know how much input GM has on his records. if you check the credits you will see that GM plays most of the instruments on his albums, as well as writing everything (except the cover versions). he rarely has a writing partner. wham! only released two proper albums but had such an effect, and andrew ridgley has little to no credits as he did practically bugger all on them, he was mainly there like pepsi and shirley to front the band, paul wellers wife dc lee was one of the backing singers for wham! GM plays guitar, keys etc in the studio, but in concert he sticks to his vocals as he's mainly a vocalist and writer. he's an awful dancer and he admits and accepts this openly. so in the studio, GM writes, performs and sings, and onstage sings live and doesn't dance. he's the opposite to MJ live, who dances and lipsynchs. i don't think GM really gets the credit he deserves for his talent, it's overlooked as people just hear the music and enjoy it, and most of his fanbase don't care how it was created as it's pop music, and in the wham! days he tried to play down his creativity to appear to a young pop audience that just wanted good looks and poppy songs

i think MJ's career is closest to madonnas, as she relies on other people to create her music for her and relies on music videos to sell her music. likewise live she lipsynchs a lot and it's all about the show rather than live music. it's a shame that someone who is considered one of the greatest singers just didn't sing live at the concerts. anyone would think it was a waste of a talent if any other great vocalist didn't sing live and relied on prerecorded vocals. instead his most memorable performance was mimimg to billie jean at motown 25, and the most memorable part of that was a few short seconds of him moonwalking

My comparison with GM was referring strictly to MJ's abilities as a writer and producer. Nothing more than that. As performers there is no comparison. GM was totally shit.

I also know that George wrote a much larger portion of his work than MJ. Like I said, he is a better songwriter than MJ. As for George playing instruments, yeah, I know that, but the problem is George's instrumentals really don't sound as good as they could precisely because of that. The musicianship on much of it is pretty primitive. I really am not convinced he was a real musician. Sure, he was clearly more proficient than MJ, but I ain't seen enough to give George props there. You're probably right though that he is different to MJ in that sense.

The Madonna comparison is ridiculous and insulting to MJ. Madonna wrote pretty much ALL of her compositions in collaboration. MJ wrote much of his alone. In that area, he trounces Madonna. Also, Madonna has never once come up with an arrangement for one of her songs. The tracks are provided by her co-writers. MJ often (not always, but often) came up with the core elements himself. Although, to turn those raw elements into great tracks he needed people like Quincy and top session musicians.

By the way, you're actually wrong to characterize Madonna as a lip-syncher. That's actually one area where she beats MJ. Her live concerts usually feature NO LIP SYNCHING, and when she does mime it's nowhere near as frequent as MJ. You're right though that her appeal was also heavily dependent on videos, just like MJ's was.
[Edited 7/4/09 14:22pm]

how you think GM is shit live and GM and MJ are more similar than MJ and madonna suggests you have a blinkered viewpoint. i'm not a huge fan of any of those artists in particular, but i have prettymuch all the music they have released, plus bootlegs etc, so i can look at it indiscriminately, so i'd say GM was by far the superior live artists

You think GM was BY FAR THE SUPERIOR LIVE ARTIST and you say I'm the blinkered one? Hmmm, let's see. As a mover, GM was total shit. MJ was possibly the best of of all time. Watching GM is like watching an accountant doing a karaoke set at the local bar. Watching MJ was like watching a fucking hurricane. He was a force of nature. Safe to say, MJ wins that one.

As a singer, MJ was also incredible in his time. Check out The Jacksons Live album for an example. Listen to the acapella vocals after "I'll Be There" and how he scat-sings the intro to "Rock With You". GM could never even dream of having that kind of soul or inventiveness. GM's own dad used to say that he couldn't sing, and it's long been the case that he is an overrated vocalist. He was at his best on Faith, but some of his live vocals are painful. Now obviously, MJ got shit later on, but in his day, he was not even in the same galaxy as George. I'm cringing slightly as I type this because it's so ridiculous to compare them as performers. GM himself would be embarrassed to hear you calling him "by far the superior live artist".

Now, you are right that MJ was lazy and dumb when it came to structuring his shows. Up until the very end he was doing the same shit over and over again, but when I make the case for MJ's greatness as a performer, I'm thinking of what he did within those structures and his total history as a performer (are you aware of his history before Bad?). George is simply not dynamic enough to match Mike in any way. He's got no funkiness to him. If I was to be cruel I'd say he's too white. When you're singing black music and you don't play an instrument on stage that kind of matters.

Finally, I completely agree that Prince beats them all by having better bands. People around here would never admit it, but the truth is even the much praised Bad Tour sounds kind of shitty if you listen to the audios, but Prince's bands always sounded great. Prince made sure of it. Scandalously, Michael took very little interest in that kind of thing and his shows suffered as a result. Even his backing vocalists were bad choices. MJ's judgement was bad, but then GM's recent shows didn't even sound like the "band" were actually playing. It sounded like Memorex all the way through. Like I said, he's a karaoke singer.
[Edited 7/4/09 17:25pm]

i think most people would agree that being a better live artist is more about performing your music live than extranous stuff like dancing. GM's band is live and vocals are all live. you obviously haven't seen or heard much of his stuff to make an informative critique. watch GM's unplugged and tell me he doesn't play live. his last few live tv and radio appearances included live performances sung instead of lipsynched, usually with a stripped down band playing pretty much accoustically. people usually go to concerts to hear the music, not to watch someone dancing, if you prefer dancing, go to a musical instead. at large concerts you usually can't even see the artist properly anyway, but you can hear them. GM also had an amazing stage setup on the last tour, massive video screens that literally covered the whole stage and had amazing visuals, the best i've ever seen, it really looked amazing, far more impressive than i've seen anywhere else, and fitting to the show. it wasn't out of place like the magician stuff that MJ did, it's a rock concert not a paul daniels show

GM doesn't have any live dvds out officially but he is supposed to be releasing his final 2 earls court shows at some point, some of the footage has already been shown on tv, so perhaps the best thing to checkout as evidence that GM can pull it off live is the freddy mercury tribute show (released officially on dvd, and you have the GM five EP released officially) and unplugged. watch those and then come back and say GM is shit and can't sing. you really are on your own there. i've heard people slag off GM before, but i've never heard anyone critisise his singing or performance before. that's like saying prince can't play guitar, even people who hate prince's music wouldn't say that

My original comment was that MJ is a far, far better performer than GM. That means if I had a band and I had to choose a frontman for the group, who would I choose? MJ at his peak or George Michael at his peak? The question is ridiculous because you wouldn't have to even think about it for a second. As a singer MJ DESTROYS George's one dimensional ass. In terms of charisma, again MJ DESTROYS George. There just is no comparison. Do you think charisma is a trivial matter? If so, then you are SERIOUSLY mistaken. We're on a Prince website for goodness sake. He's one of the most charismatic and dynamic performers ever. This stuff is NOT trivial. If you're watching someone perform, you'd rather watch someone exciting, not someone like George Michael who makes you cringe with how goddamn stiff he is. And I repeat, he is an overrated singer. A classic case of a white man TRYING to do a black thing and never quite getting there, but being overpraised for his efforts by an audience that doesn't know any better. And by the way, I like George. He can sound good sometimes, but ultimately he remains a wannabe.

I've seen ALL the George Michael stuff you mentioned. The Freddie Mercury one was his best performance, but dude, check out this MJ footage right here. If you say that GM could ever be this mesmerising then you are lying to yourself and to everyone on this website. Watch carefully.

Wasn't PYT the only FUNK song on Thriller?

Somehow I've missed out on this one:



I love the faces he makes and Eddie trying to look so cool.

I still hate that one.

You know Timmy, I love songs like this. The one's where Mike is not taking the lead but is more supportive. To me, it shows just how great a talent he was. My other "Non-lead" roles of Mike were, "Somebody's Watching Me", "Who's Right Who's Wrong?", "Eatin Alive", and "Muscles". Those songs really showcase Michael's talent.

"Somebody's Watching Me" is perfect, not this.

Love his adlibs on this one though. Can you imagine what it would sound like, if Tpain and Akon decided to cover this song? I could hear it,(auto tune and all)...a hott mess!!
[Edited 7/5/09 19:00pm]

No, but since you brought it up I just lost my dinner.

"Somebody's Watching Me" is perfect, not this.

Just came back from my family reunion and we had a Jackson good time. We played J5/little Mike/adult Mike/Jackson we even snuck some Jermaine in there.