just curious. i wont even try to defend it or anything- unless one of you asks me a direct question. ..for "research purposes" i guess, i'd like to just see the reasoning. mainly those of you on here who see it as almost, if not entirely, irredeemable as an art form (or fuax-art form...you get the idea).

please unload all opinions here. thanks!

I don´t loathe it but look at that cover you posted. That should give you an idea.
Of all the people mentioned on that cover, there is only ONE rapper that I like ( and that is Talib Kweli). Too many wack rappers like Lil Wayne, Soulja Boy,and countless other wack rappers have usurped and ruined the reputation of a once revolutionary youth culture called Hip Hop. What most people call Hip Hop today is utter bullshit, has nothing to do with Hip Hop, makes me feel ashamed to even say that I grew up with Hip Hop and makes me ponder whether the whole genre should refrain from using that name in the future. And I´m not even saying that it is the gangsta rap or thug culture that´s ruined it because that would be too easy,there are really talented gangsta rappers out there.
It is the lazy rhyming, lack of flow,beat biting,style biting,zero talented and ignorant dumb ass fools out there that make me want to do ugly things to them.

Sure ,there are still good rappers out there but the genre as a whole has suffered a lot from all those who jumped on the bandwaggon called Hip Hop.
Hip Hop is or was a movement and some people never should have USED the word Hip Hop, and that also goes for people who used all those new labels like "Queen of HipHop Soul" or what not. I´m seriously fed up and sick of it.Hip Hop needs an enema.
[Edited 5/18/09 14:15pm]

Coming from a creative perspective, I can't stand non creative, loop based music. 2 add insult 2 injury, most rappers are not talkng about anything of interest 2 me. Don't get me started on sampling which I hope they make ILLEGAL in the future. If u can't create music, u have no business in the music making business.

Just my 2 pennies.

Boring as ()*&&(^.

KoolEaze said:

ok. if you cannot identify/classify certain peoples with the title of "hip hop"...what would these other artists fall under?

(again, not starting something- just looking to hear people out)

Graycap23 said:

go ahead. speak on it

Graycap23 said:

My on sampling: When it's a minor thing, and used an enhancement, it's fine. But when you're depending on it for the song (eg: "Men In Black" uses Patrice's song as a main hook, whereas George Michael using it in "Fastlove" is an embellishment), there's a problem. I've often joked that Will Smith wouldn't have a career if it weren't for 70's and 80's R&B. Even some pop songs depend a bit too heavy on a sample (like Janet's "All For You", Angie Stones "No More Rain In This Cloud" or "Wish I Didn't Miss U"). Sean Combs even bragged in a song about remaking songs from the 80's and making new money off of them. Yeah, cuz THAT'S cool.

It's all shizzle.

ernestsewell said:

do you feel there is a difference between sampling at it is used in hip hop and interpolation as it has been used in other genres/artforms?

comegetwild said:

...come on...you have more to say dont you?

SirPsycho said:

You mean people like LilWayne etc. ?
I don´t know,really. Their music is Hip Hop´s ugly,distant cousin.

KoolEaze said:

ok

it always bothers me when someone says "i hate ALL hip-hop" just like when someone says "i hate ALL country/jazz/classical", etc.

how can you know you hate something until you've actually heard it?

just as a blanket opinion, i don't like current contemporary top 40 hip-hop. gangsta rap. ringtone rap. blingsta rap. whatever you want to call it. i dislike it because musically, it sounds uninspired and it lacks energy. lyrically, i think it's all disingenuous posturing that has little connection with artistry or culture that i find valuable. lil' wayne might as well be hannah montana as far as i'm concerned.

that's not to say i don't like a lot of hip-hop, because i do. most of what i like was created in the 80s, and some in the 90s. i know what i like when i hear it, so if i hear something new coming out that people are excited about, i will at least give it an honest chance the first time i have an opportunity to hear it.

for me to say i hate an entire genre without knowing all of what i am turning my nose up at is kind of like judging something preemptively. i don't like that.

Anxiety said:

good point. i can relate entirely, but i decided i wasnt gonna push my case here.

Anxiety said:

Excellent point.

I could never get behind the sentiment that all hip hop is bad, or all country, or all punk, or whathaveyou. It's just not possible that an entire genre is crap.

Me, I have nothing against hip hop as a genre, but I find it incredibly sad and irritating that posers with hardly any talent that rap about stupid bullshit have been allowed to rise to the forefront and take all the attention from legitimately talented and deserving artists. Much as I'd prefer to have faith in the tastes of the public, it can't be denied that it's those kinds of crap performers making noise on tv and radio because those jokers are the ones record labels stand to make money off of.

Sampling or even straight up covers I don't have a problem with either, but again it comes down to approach. Taking a snippet of sound here and there and building a new song around it can be a beautiful thing. Lazily rhyming over the entire original song is not, and IMO should be illegal -particularly in cases where the original artist doesn't get paid for it.

And please, PLEASE performers, if you must sample make what you're doing blend with the sampled work. For the love of God. I have no idea what it's called or who it's by, but lately I've been hearing this bullshit song with a female vocalist that is basically just her singing over the music from The Zombie's Time of the Season. But it's done so poorly it just sounds like some 13 year old tried to make a mash-up.

SirPsycho said:

It kind of goes to what I stated above. Interploitation is like Prince singing "You're givin' me, you're givin' me..." in "S.S.T.", or listen to George Michael's "Fastlove" where over the chorus (which is already layered) you hear a girl singing "Send me forget me nots, to help me to remember..." Those examples of interploitation almost gives homage to the original song. The same way Prince said "It's like James used to say..." then sang a line. He did the same in "Dorothy Parker" with a Joni song.

Sampling is more like Will Smith using "Forget Me Nots" on a loop. He also resang the melody of the chorus but used new words. Now, Janet used a loop for "All For You" from Change's "Glow of Love" but it was an original melody. Same goes for the two Angie Stone songs I mentioned. Janet's "Rhythm Nation" relies HEAVILY on "Thank You" from Sly and the Family Stone. Those examples are a bit much. When the song is depending on the hook, it's too much.

If you took away the sample of "Edge of Seventeen" by Stevie Nicks from Destiny Child's "Bootylicious" the song would still survive on its own. Yet if you removed the sample of "It's Ecstasy When You lay Next To Me" by Barry White from Robbie Williams "Rock DJ" the song would suffer and not be memorable.

Last example: I wrote a demo of a song called "Free (U Got Me)". It's just a fun (nasty) song. I sampled "Batdance" in it. Just the first guitar hit at the beginning of the song (DUHN DUHN DUHN DUHN). I sampled just one DUHN every two or four measures. My song is a light sample or could be considered an interploitation. But the song doesn't depend on the sample. It can easily be played without it and the song would stand on its own quite well. The sample was just an embellishment.

I think it's highly unproductive and unimaginative to use a loop, and talk shit over it, or even sing over it with a new melody. It's a novelty at that point, and sometimes less memorable than an original song. Although that depends on the age group. Older folks (I was 29 at the time) would know "Oh that's Patrice Rushen" but kids would say, "No, that's Will Smith." "NO, it's Patrice Rushen. Let me school you."
[Edited 5/18/09 21:31pm]

ernestsewell said:

That song I mentioned in my post came on the radio when the roommate and I were out for sushi the other day. I was like, "Hey, cool. The Zombies are still getting air time." And the roommate was like, "Who? This is....."

meow85 said:

http://answers.yahoo.com/...431AAbZUxp

Is that it? Sounds the same to me.

There's great hip-hop, just not those of the Lil' Wayne category. I heard some stuff on my cousin's radio last night drove me nuts. He had a mix tape of nothing but joints from Gucci Man and OJ Da Juice Man and his damn high-pitched "ayes"! I used to dig Southern hip-hop (when Scarface, the Geto Boys, Outkast, Goodie Mob and UGK were running it) but now it's nothing but grills and drinking purple stuff and lollipops and shit.

Timmy84 said:

Because rap in general is caught in a web and has been for a long time, the tide has not changed, except dudes aint selling for the most part like 10 years ago. The only reason i will watch a rap video is for hot women, plain and simple, i have no interest at all, how many times can you rap, "come see me in VIP, U and Ure friend plus me", its so fucking played at this point you just want to smack the shit and bling out of a soulja boy or flo-rida, but as long as dumb ass white boys and white girls buy the shit in droves, its going to be law of the fucking land.

Take my advice, go to LL album and listen to "DEAR HIP HOP" and realize what rap is now and was then, and how it got there. Put it simply as LL raps, "We were sold to the highest bidder and pissed on like kitty litter"

Anxiety said:

I think it is possible to hate an entire genre. For me, I dislike every single country song I've ever heard. I'm not going to claim that all country music is bad or anything, and I'm aware that I'm missing out on a wide range of great artists, but I can't stand to hear twang in any form, and I think that kind of defines the genre, doesn't it?

ernestsewell said:

ok...i follow, so is alicia keys song "jealous of your girlfriend" a justified case? or no?



original:


(lets assume for a second, dirty's version relies on an original piano loop)

or

if jay namechecks in his story, that he is in fact listening to marvin gaye...does this change the "fairness of use"?



original:

lastdecember said:

that's just mainstream. 2008 and 2009 has seen some GREAT hip hop releases

First: It's dull as hell. There is absolutely nothing to it. It's just a weak sounding midtempo beat with some talking on top of it. When I ask people..."just what in the hell do you find entertaining in this shit", they say..."listen to what they are saying". Well hell, who cares? It ain't on top of some music and if it's not on top of some music, then it's poetry, not music. And if it's poetry, then it needs to be in books, not on records. It was great in the early 80s when most of it was uptempo and for the dancefloor (which is what music is supposed to be made for). When it fucked up is in the 90s when it became slow as hell and stripped of all instruments except a weak sounding drum machine and maybe a sample of someone else's record (and even the sample was slowed down even more). All these means "dull".

Second: It has completely forced out and taken over everything R&B related. It's not a matter of..."if you don't like it, don't listen to it so live and let live". Well dammitt, the motherfuckers have forced everything else out so they aren't the ones that have "lived and let live". I first got disgusted with mainstream music in general when Shitney Houston first came on the scene in 1985 and other dull asses like her started popping up everywhere. However, there was still at least a few jams on the radio after she came on the scene. Then, in 1990, I went to a gay club for the first time and discovered the underground dance/house scene. I immediately said "Fuck radio. They can have that slow dull shit. At least I've got jams out in the clubs". Well, I be damned if around the mid 1990s, house and dance music got scarcer and scarcer in the black gay club and shit hop started taking over more and more until it completely took it over. In the white gay club, what used to be their version of house/dance music had all turned to acid/trance type mess. All over the radio, was just shit hop here and shit hop there, in all the clubs, shit hop here and shit hop there. Then even the white gay club (which was a last resort for me) turned into damn near all shit hop. So don't give me no "live and let live" shit because that bullshit has completely stomped out any entertaining partying and nightlife. And then when I found out why it had taken over, because of monopolies promoting it and nothing but it because it's the cheapest form of music to make, that really made me furious.

Third: Thug image and homophobic artists promoting homophobia. The fact that most of them want to look like thugs says it all. What the hell is a thug anyway. It's a damn criminal. And as for all the hostile homophobic attitude and lyrics, I'm not one of those weak little sissies that sits and cries when someone spurts out shit like that. When someone hates me, I hate them back worse.
.
.
.
[Edited 5/18/09 17:24pm]

vainandy said:

I knew you were going to be here

also:

if the original artist appears in the video, would that change the feelings of any concerned parties?

"the o'jays" (darlin' darlin' baby)


"quincy" (soul bossa nova)

Blu and Exile- Below The Heavens
LAUSD presents....Curly Tops and Nautica Jackets
Foreign Exchange-Leave It All Behind
Drake- So Far Gone
Brandun Deshay and The Super 3- The D3Shay EP
The Cool Kids- The Bake Sale
Charles Hamilton- The Pink Lavalamp
Kid Cudi-A Kid Named Cudi
Big Sean- Finally Famous: The Mixtape

vainandy said:

in your opinion what qualifies something as music? and would j.j. fad or arabian prince meet that qaulification if dancable?

ernestsewell said:

Not getting off topic, but I agree about Janet's "All For You" and Angie Stone. Thoes songs always bothered me because the samples are so heavy. I do admit I do like I Wish I Didn't Miss You.

But "All For You" just makes me wanna go listen to "Glow of Love". I think Jam and Lewis were lazy with that song. And Angie is a repeat offender when it comes to wholesale sampling.

bboy87 said:

you're officially my best friend cuz you fuck wit charles hamilton