Great interview. It's such a shame that Neither Fish Nor Flesh didn't get the dues it was, well, due, lol.

I still hold it up as one of the most underrated albums of the period. There are some wonderful songs on there.

Swa

A great album does not need to be a great seller in order to be a great album.

Swa said:

novabrkr said:

I agree with both of you

I actually read on wikipedia, that flesh nor fantasy still sold 2 million copies, not bad for a 'flop' record and his first album sold a million copies in the first three days. I can see why, Sign Your name, wishing well, and if you let me stay have all the diversity in sounds of a Prince record, for a brief shining moment he was great. I always thought he was a bit femmy and artistic but in a Lenny Kravitz rather than a gay way.
I think its silly some people think all balck men have to be this Mandingo, buck, hyper masculine stereotype and anyone who sin't is labelled gay or bi or not black. All of these artists can be sensitive and slight as well as ladykillers too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...a_Maitreya

Well, I doubt those figures would be correct for "Neither Fish Nor Flesh", especially as there is no source citated. Take Wikipedia as it is, as it's filled with exaggerations written by fans in the case of pop music / entertainment figures. Sometimes it is stated that this was one of the worst-selling records by CBS, which might be an exaggeration as well.

Terence used to be in the army and he was boxer. He does come off as effeminate when you see video footage of him or in real life (even to recent days), but he was always more of a bit geeky, dorky androgynous character - it came out rather naturally or unintentionally for him - rather than being a gender-bender, glam rock -type of a persona.
.

novabrkr said:

All through the years I have always heard that NFNF sold more than 2 millions copies. The fact that Introducing... sold so much more was the reason it was still considered a flop.

Huggiebear said:

His later records were even better than Introducing.., they just did not have the same commercial success. So it was not just a brief moment.

I am not sure exactly what he is saying there.

TTD is just not likable.....the big difference between him & P is that P never talked and made good music back in the day and was successful, TTD was all talk and came with nothing..... [hides for Serious now]

abierman said:

Terence has put out some beautiful albums, and his lyrics (IMO) are far more representative of poetry. I'm a big ol' fan of Terence's work.

it would be a sin to let a post about ttd go un-commented by me. it is a way of paying homage to terrence that i post that this musical genius and poetic wonder rages a rage against the system of todays music industry that is wont to put commerce above talent. i love you terence you defined my teens and even much of my sensitivity today!

Vendetta1 said:

gender and sexual orientation are two different things..

maybe prince is gender queer?

FutureGirl said:

i don't either.

me thinks based on gender stereotypes.

But didn't the 70's have alot of androgyny & glam also??



Bowie, Jagger, Elton, T-Rex, Sylvester

Go alt.music.prince there is story from former paisley park employee states he seen terence and prince kiss on the mouth

funkpill said:

.....The New York Dolls, Queen (especially Freddie Mercury), Foxy

funkpill said:

Sylvester was one of the first black androgynous celebrities to have some mainstream success...I think. Not too sure. But I know he was one of the first. So was Nona Hendryx of Labelle (though I think Patti was kinda androgynous during this period too wearing short silver hairdos, lol, there's that famous picture taking from their Metropolitan performance with her in silver hair, classic).
[Edited 5/24/09 13:26pm]

purplemansionFL said:

Correction. Terence kiss Prince on the mouth of an unexpecting Prince. They didn't kiss eachother.

Rinluv said:

novabrkr said:

Well, the lil fella does wear copious amounts of makeup and women's clothing. I'd say that could be taken as an indication.

baroque said:

A definite possibility IMO

This was neither the first nor last time someone has made this point with regard to black male celebrities. And I don't think the dynamic Sananda speaks of has been relegated to the music world, though the mitigation of "threat" needn't always play out sexually: At least here in the States, a cute and cuddly Will Smith, for example, trumps an imposing Wesley Snipes; a cleancut, Ivy League-produced and biracial Barack Obama trumps a 60's activist Jesse Jackson or a dark and physically hulking J.C. Watts. I think perhaps only black male athletes (and then only since the mid '50s) have enjoyed a rather unchecked masculinity and what I'll call a sort of "overt" (and , yes, even to the point of stereotype) ethnic affect while still being greatly lionized beyond black communities.

And, no, I don't think Sananda was saying Prince the person is bisexual, but that the essence of what Prince presents as celebrity is aesthetically bisexual.

Sananda's a nutball, but I think he's generally correct here.

Lammastide said:

I fully understand and even agree with the point you're making, but I'd say that cute and cuddly or educated and well-spoken are almost always considered more appealing by the general public, regardless of race, than big and imposing and overtly masculine is.

meow85 said:

Only thing about it is that -- in both the cases of Snipes and Watts -- they also represent well-spoken and smart individuals. There's certainly a broader subtext to why mainstream America has shied away from certain personalities and images. Not all of it can be explained away by "Birth of a Nation." But much of it can be.

coolcat said:

The late '70s to mid '80s definitely were. But I think that was something slightly different. I believe the universal androgyny we saw then was a product of a lingering New Romanticism that first became popular in Europe and on either coast in North America. That came and went in all but niche circles, but I think the unspoken requirement for more successful black male celebrities to be "safe" predated and survived this to significant degree.
[Edited 5/24/09 15:40pm]

Lammastide said:

Can you give an example of a white male figure... musical artist let's say... that has achieved this mass level of acceptance with an overt male sexuality...

meow85 said:

I dunno, meow. As I think of, say, Hollywood's biggest leading men through the early to late 20th century, it was only very late that "softer" men saw some demand. Before that, the preferred archetype was uber masculine, a man's man, a cowboy, ya know?

coolcat said:

Garth Brooks was mentioned. I think that's a great one. Any number of males in huge hard rock bands like the Stones, Aerosmith, KISS, Led Zeppelin, etc. would be others (although they were influenced for a time by the androgyny of the '80s).

Lammastide said:

Garth Brooks... really? He just doesn't seem that uber-masculine to me... Almost looks like a teddy-bear I think...

I do agree with the other examples though...
[Edited 5/24/09 15:50pm]