Moonbeam said:

All are distinct musical voices who use voice as an instrument. I know for a fact Aretha plays piano. She does so on many of her Atlantic albums and used to do so in concert (especially the gospel tunes).

Luther composes complete songs on his own, so I'm sure he has chops.
[Edited 3/16/09 20:57pm]

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Exactly. That's why i'm so not getting the thread. We talk about stevie all
the time without mentioning his talent of playing instruments.
Patti, Chaka, Aretha, donny hathaway, minnie ripperton, phillip bailey,etc.
are all outstanding vocalists we talk about all the time. We even talk about
70's soul groups with outstanding vocalists like the spinners, the stylistics,
the dramatics, the moments, etc. To sum it up maybe cdcgold just isn't
impressed with artists that play instruments and sing as much as vocalists
but my thing is you would be hard pressed to find any vocalists of this era
that can stand up to the great ones of the 70's whether they are vocalists
or artists that play instruments.

phunkdaddy said:

All them threads about Gene "The Duke" Chandler, Mary Wells, The Temptations, Marvin Gaye and some others that hardly get mention yet MJ, DeBarge, Janet and Madonna and even Britney gets more responses!

cdcgold said:

Well, I have no respect for anyone who would competes on a show like Idol, but it's more of a moral issue than anything. That show is all about polishing "artists" to the point where their voices and their songs are void of any personality, and they use their singers as puppets to earn the almighty dollar. It's a TV show more than anything else, and I think it's largely responsible for why the current state of the music industry is so dire.

Snobby as that is, I do, however, love a lot of artists who don't play any instruments and don't write their own material. Kylie Minogue is one of my top 10 artists, for crying out loud! So are Janet Jackson and Madonna. In their case, however, the delivery and execution with which they portray the music, and their ability to get into character is what makes me love them.

There is something to be said about artists like Prince and Stevie Wonder whose music is entirely their package, but I (and many other people here) can and do appreciate many artists whose work is the product of many. All too often, the public heralds the singer of a song while completely ignoring the work of those who actually come up with the lyrics, melody, instrumentation, and lay down the tracks.

At the end of the day, just enjoy whatever it is you enjoy. You obviously aren't alone in liking the artists you do, even if these artists aren't as celebrated here as you'd like them to be. Hey, not many people like Roxette like I do (or have the nerve to admit it ), but there is so much music to appreciate and so much that I have learned about music here that it's well worth it. If I want to talk Roxette, I just know that this isn't the best place to do so. Even so, I think you'll find that the Prince community is among the most diverse out there with respect to age, race, ideology and musical taste. The loud voices here can be a bit daunting at times, but I'm sure there are many in the woodwork here who appreciate what you do.

paisleypark4 said:

I agree with you but PLEASE, PLEASE STOP talking about Protools and using it in the same sentence with Casio. Protools is a recording system. Almost ALL records are recorded on Protools these days - good and bad. Casio is a brand that makes cheap electronics. They are two totally different things.
I don't know where people picked up this "Protools is the devil" shit but really, Protools is just a tool for recording like a tape recorder. Its like using a CD burner instead of a cassette recorder.
Just trying to clear up some of the confusion.
Saying Protools and Casio is like saying SUVs and Toyotas.

chuckaducci said:

Wagner was a pretty solid piano player and conductor.

God, what those kind of harsh responses? respect has no place on this forum? What a shame...its not that serious.

The problem is that cdcgold started a thread on the wrong community , if this question was asked on a "stevie wonder" forum (who is the most talented musician ever lived ) she wouldn't get those kind of responses, I can only pick two or three intelligent rational responses on this thread.

Just answer the question, No need to be rude.

cdcgold said:

i agree that some people with the gift of a great singing voice are talented, however, i think the argument about the need to play instruments, especially here on the Org is bourne out of the frustration of today's music that is derived from overuse of samples, software and other beatmaking machines.

Moonbeam said:

You're exactly right. Those of us who actually watch American Idol may believe that the program is about finding the next Michael Jackson, Prince, Stevie Wonder, or Mariah Carey, but in reality it's all about bringing in ad dollars for the FOX TV network. (Just as we don't really believe that Dancing With The Stars is about finding the most graceful B or C list celebrity dancer either.) Assuming that Idol was really about finding the next huge musical superstar, you could theoretically have 12 finalists would could be the next Prince, MJ, Madonna, Mariah, Springsteen, Garth Brooks, Bon Jovi, etc., but if the ratings suddenly went down precipitously, FOX would have no qualms about canceling the program.

But back to the original theme of the thread. I find it odd that the person who posted this thread in the first place, who presumably is such a huge Michael Jackson fan, would discount being able to play instruments. Anyone who knows about the making of Thriller or Bad knows that Michael composed and arranged many of the songs on those albums himself, and he spent a lot of time playing instruments in the studio to get his sound. And even most of the entertainers from the 80's who mostly stood on staged and danced around at least knew how to play some instruments, even if only to help them arrange melodies that more seasoned musicians would play later.

But I think that on a forum such as this where fans of one of the most gifted musicians to ever come around have a beef with are artists who mostly create their music off of a computer and use pre-programmed notes or beats to do it and then pass it off as great art. Or I should say, they pass it off to gullible music press junkies as great art. Britney Spears is the most blatant example, but that could be said for much of the hip-hop and R&B world at this time and most of teen pop as well. The Jonas Brothers may not be the most talented musicians in the world, but I at least give them props for actually playing live music, even if I think that it's too bubblegum.

I do think the human voice is an instrument... I guess it is just seen as a bit too "intuitive"...

When you play an instrument, guitar piano... whatever... when you start off there is no connection between you and the instrument... so you have to slowly build that up through practice... not to mentional all the mechanical technical problems with instruments... the tweaking, adjustments etc...

You're born with a voice... you already have a great deal of control over it if you can speak... so learning to sing well "seems" easier than learning to play an instrument well...

It's all relative though... the guitar is one of the easiest instruments to play... the violin is much much harder... does that mean music made on a guitar is less worthy...

There's plenty of pure vocal music without any instruments... classical vocal music... barber shop quartets, a capella... not really in pop music... except Bobby McFerrin "Don't Worry Be Happy" maybe?

on the other hand there is not much pure instrumental music in pop music either...

It doesn't matter to me how the sounds are created... if it sounds good to me, it sounds good to me.

EmancipationLover said:

He absolutely was not a solid piano player. And is admittedly bad at it. Read his autobiography (if you dare).

BlaqueKnight said:

I guess because people associate the cheap product making with Protools .....and then artists actually SAY they use Protools to make their music. Instead of actually SAYING what instruments they use to make thir songs..they just blame it on Protools and the rest is history.

Timmy84 said:

There are so many lead singers who are also drummers/percussionists like Teddy Pendergrass, Jefferey Osbourne, Morris Day, James Brown, Steve Tyler, Steve Perry

cdcgold said:

1st i gotta repspond 2 u saying one can take singing lessons and never sound like luther. the fact that someone would WANT 2 sound like luther and not their OWN persona says a lot. i respect a lot of singers that don't play a instrument cause they can SING on their own. it adds 2 the dimension when they can play a instrument. they don't have 2 sound like hendrix, wonder, meshelle ndegeocello etc..it's just a added bonus.

chuckaducci said:

I've read quite a lot of stuff about the man and know that he only moved house with his grand piano. He was quite a good conductor, and as a conductor, you normally need a solid command of the piano. However, due to his friendship with Liszt, he might have felt significantly inferior as a piano player. It probably comes down to the standards you have (I'm an o.k. piano player myself, but everytime I listen to Glenn Gould, I think I'm complete crap).

Btw, a lot of stuff Wagner has written needs to be taken with a grain of salt - a very mercurial person indeed.

BlaqueKnight said:

but toyota makes SUV's ..i'm just saying ...that's all ..

EmancipationLover said:

Just because he moved with his grand piano doesn't mean that he had a grand command of the piano. Wagner, in that pithy although definitely hyperbolic autobiography of his, does admit to not being a capable pianist. I don't remember his keyboard music being heavily included in the repertoire and I don't remember him composing a bunch of piano music in the first place. It would seem to me that Wagner was the type of composer who needed to compose with a piano at hand.

Yes, he may have been a talented conductor but I don't remember having command of the piano as a prerequisite for exemplary conducting. So I disagree with that regard too - Either way, anytime I get to blab about classical music is a treat!

Man please. There are so many singers on this board that have received props for their talents. Everyday a singer on here is praised. I'm not even going to mention any names.

Just the fact that someone can create out of thin air something good (whether it's a voice or a instrument) should be impressive enough.

SPYZFAN1 said:

Very well said

Now lock this bitch ass thread

chuckaducci said:

You normally need piano skills as a conductor to rehearse with singers or soloists, or to start off your career as repetiteur. That's why conducting students have tough piano exams nowadays (Wagner was more self-taught IIRC). Anyway, it helps a great deal.

However, I'll not rule out that my and Wagner's understanding of "solid" were quite different (maybe because I don't want to admit that I'm less than "solid" myself). If your friends are Hans von Bülow and Franz Liszt, it's probably tough not to lose any self-esteem on the piano.

We should have more threads on classical music on here...

paisleypark4 said:[quote]

cdcgold said:

i can understand that but david is signed to a record company that probably forces him sing what they tell him too, becuase he's new, maybe when he gets more control he will make better music, you have to understand the music industry isn't like it used to be artist probably have to do alot of figting to get any kind of control.

728huey said:

I'm not discounting instruments completely all i'm saying is an artsit with an amazing voice who can't play instrumentsis no less "genius" than one who can, because the voice is an instruments anyway. thats all i'm saying is you don't have to play instruments to be a musical genius

L4OATheOriginal said:

BlaqueKnight said:

I'm stealing that, thank you.

cdcgold said:

In fact, quite a lot of good opera singers are not that good at playing instruments btw. Still, please look at your thread title and think if it reflects what you were trying to say.

BlaqueKnight said:

what the hell
Im loving this , better than the bboys one

seeingvoices12 said:

I stole that pic.

Timmy84 said:

No problem as long as you give the original poster credit

The way he slaps him

Oh I will and I'll give him a shout out (what up, Blaque! )