graecophilos said:

the meer fact Madonna still recieves dance #1s 25 years later shows she is able to keep up with the current dance trends and styles. I hate that people claim pop music isn't a difficult. it was so easy to be pop artist why isn't everyone doing it?

ehuffnsd said:

you should know by now how much of a Madonna fan I am. I also praised Hard Candy to the atmosephere.

ehuffnsd said:

maybe some people want to be creative and not rip of other peoples fashion and music and call it their own?

mynameisnotsusan said:

Joni was sounding the warning bell quite early about Madonna's pernicious influence, saying "It's death to all things real". Madonna didn't invent shallow and cynical dilettantism, but she certainly gave it a huge boost.

LondonStyle said:

I just googled it and it's an interview from Rolling Stone May 1991. Here's the relevant quote, it's not just an open attack.

Yet someone like Madonna can be seen as a feminist hero because shes exploitng her own sexuality rather than being exploited by some man

That's an interesting idea, but what's the difference between her and a hard hooker, you know? Who's being exploited there? But she's reveling in herself. She can take it. I guess that's what it is. It's just being able to take it, you know.

But would you agree that Madonna is the current archetype for the female performer?

Well, she's a great "star". She's got that whore Madonna thing built in (laughs). She's like a living Barbie Doll but she's a little bit on the blue side. There's always been that type of female. There's always been a market for it, but the danger is that she thinks she's a role model. And it's a terrible role model. It's death to all things real.

How do you feel about another new queen of rock, Sinead O'Connor?

I like her. She's a passionate little singer. And I understand her saying "I hate this job". It's a horrible job. People don't realise how horrible it is. Making music is great. The exploitation is horrible. And I think you have to be as hard as nails. Maybe that's where Madonna has an edge over us. Maybe she doesn't think it's horrible. I think it's degrading, humiliating - so does Sinead. Whereas Madonna's above being degraded or humiliated. She flirts with it. And perhaps that bravado is in some ways to be applauded, but at what cost to her soul, is my question.

VoicesCarry said:

Yes, she elevated their profiles, so what? It doesn't mean her main goal in the industry should be looking for unknown people and make them mainstream. Her career is based on writing and recording catchy pop songs and HC is really a perfect example of that. Songs like "Mer Girl" or "Paradise" are the exception, not the norm. Ray Of Light & Music albums sold millions because "Frozen", "Ray Of Light", "The Power Of Good-Bye", "Music" & "Don't Tell Me" were irresistible radio and MTV hits, not because Madonna was discovering new people.

Madonna is the definition of mainstream. She found Timbaland EXACTLY because he got very mainstream with Justin & Nelly. Again, just because she managed to discover a French underground artist and make a record with him before anyone else (not that anyone else bothered to work with him after AL save for Fischerspooner), it doesn't mean she has to resent what's "popular at the time" and never to work with someone who already produced a #1 hit. She's the Queen of Pop for God's sake!

I dislike her work with David Foster but I never thought she should have worked with him before The Bodyguard soundtrack just to be ahead of anyone else. If it wasn't for all those hits he did for the divas, she would have never considered working with him.

It's one thing to say HC is a "shit record" because you don't like it (based on taste), but it's silly to dismiss it because it doesn't fit your view on Madonna's career. I think Erotica gets closest to "shit record" from her discography but I say it because the songs have bland productions and the melodies are forgettable for a lot of songs, not because she wasn't smart enough to ditch Shep Pettibone after "Vogue" and not to repeat the sound of it combined with the sexual theme of "Justify My Love". Of course that didn't help during its release, but in retrospect, who cares about the status of the collaborator?

She's trendsetting indeed. Just not with her music. She set the template for female artists regarding image, videos and live performance, just not music. Even if Stuart was a "discovery" for her, his production for COADF is based on dance hits of 70s/80s, that's hardly trendsetting, it was done after the likes of Kylie or Goldfrapp...

Why is it that,other pop artists routinely work with "hot" producers but when Madonna does it,she's "desperate" and a "sellout" Recent Janet Jackson albums featured production/assistance from the likes of Kanye West,Rodney Jerkins,Ne-Yo,Nelly and others.Mariah Carey can't seem to make an album without a bunch of "hot" rappers pissing all over her tracks,but somehow,she's NOT desperate and selling out too?! And plus,it's not like Madonna does this everytime (like those other ladies do).

..
[Edited 1/13/09 4:57am]

SoulAlive said:

I think its got something to do with taking music direction Madge does not like to share the "spotlight"..the work must be seen as if it came from her..janet and mariah don't have a problem with this...thats why names are all over their CD's...as Madge gets older she gonna have to do it more...and more....not sure she gonna like it..

SoulAlive said:

Because they think Madonna is above everyone else in this regard and got too high expectations for her. I noticed about many fans who think Madonna's choice of producers was an evolution and for Like A Virgin it was OK to work with Nile Rodgers because "she just started her career" but it was a bad idea to work with Justin/Timbaland/Pharrell in 2008 because "she was evolving until AL but then it flopped and went back to shallow music". I think that's an unfair thing to say, if there was really an evolution then LAP should have been followed by ROL immediately etc.

It happens the most with Ray Of Light fans, they tend to act like it's the alpha and omega of Madonna's 25 year career and compare everything to it.

I don't think there's any successful pop artist that managed to stay relevant for so long without getting help from famous producers or other collaborators. There aren't even that many artists in the pop industry that manage to stay successful for 10-15 years even! Madonna will keep on doing mainstream stuff and she's not gonna go "indie" or "avant-garde"...

LondonStyle said:

Oh please! Madonna has no problem with sharing the spotlight.In fact,on 'Hard Candy,she didn't even co-produce the five tracks that Timbaland produced.She only submitted lyrics but otherwise,gave him total freedom to do his thing.

LiveToTell86 said:

Exactly! I don't get the whole "Madonna is selling out" thing.What exactly is "selling out",anyway? The woman is a pop/dance artist.To a certain extent,she's supposed to make music that's in tune with current trends.It's not as if she was some independent,low-key jazz artist before and has now decided that she wants to be commercial...lol...

LiveToTell86 said:

She already done "avant-garde"..
She will go "indie" if she ever learns to play that F*cking guitar!...she is so crap at it...no wonder she wants Prince to help her out she needs it..

LondonStyle said:

She mixes avant-garde with pop, that's different.

She's not gonna go indie and do a full guitar-only album and show. That won't help her to break records with tour grosses.

As soon as we're done with all those silly threads about mj, we get inundated with madonna ones.
God! this forum is attracting a lot of mtv-pop artists by the day.
Folks there are more to life and music and them people.

kanamit said:

Well certain members already admitted they are using Madonna's name to get more attention, so first deal with them, and only after with those who defend her.

kanamit said:

I vote we limit it 2 MUSICIANS only.

kanamit said:

Amen. This is basically a lowest common denominator forum for older people. MJ, Madonna, Mariah, Beyonce, Janet. Hell, just typing out the list makes me cringe. I've tried to find more grown up forums but unfortunately the ones I've found have been badly constructed and discussion's been restricted only to the one artist. The Joni Mitchell one was good, but it got shut down.

ehuffnsd said:

Right, because Donna Summer, who is still receiving dance #1's 35 years into her chart life, is so hip to current trends and styles.

Having the label send your shit to be remixed (and Madonna remixes have gotten incredibly lazy as of late) is not difficult. It's a "DUH" when you have a name like Madonna or Donna Summer. Both could release a record of them farting to a house beat and it would hit #1. That's what happens when you're an established artist on that chart.
[Edited 1/13/09 9:15am]

VoicesCarry said:

Not true. how many people have mulitple #1 Dance hits? Madge has more number #1;s than rest of the multiple dance #1 artists combined.

In the 2000 greatest music artist of the last centry Vanity Fair edition, they stated that Madonna would get more respect for her production and songwriting if she chose to be either the angry angsty female rock singer/ or folky lesbian type but since she openly courts the dance (code in the rock critic industry for gay) and pop(code for only teenage girls will like this) audience she'll only be viewed one way by the public.

ehuffnsd said:

Uh, yes, it certainly IS true. Otherwise has-beens wouldn't be getting #1's on the dance charts.

The fact Donna Summer still gets number-one hits on the dance charts after 35 years is amazing. Let's not belittle her recent accomplishments.

Timmy84 said:

I'm not belittling anyone. However, the reality is if the dance chart were some beacon of hip and current tastes, Donna Summer would not be getting #1 hits.

VoicesCarry said:

I'm mentioning in general.

Timmy84 said:

midnightmover said:

didn't you just start a Madonna thread yesterday? in fact, it was about Madonna AND Cyndi Lauper, two big mtv-pop artists.

errant said:

Please. I ain't ever started a Madonna thread. It was a Cyndi thread that just used Madonna's name to lure in the plebs. In the past I've started threads on Tom Waits, Bob Dylan, Springsteen, Maria McKee, and many others but they've all died a death due to the nature of this site. Cyndi has some fans here because of her MTV past, but I didn't even know her in 1984. I became a fan through seeing her more soulful, mature performances much later on. Obviously you, like most people, still have the 1984 image in your mind.

VoicesCarry said:

Cyndi also had two number one dance hits last year, but no one could seriously claim her new music is widely popular.

kanamit said:

I happen to love Madonna, but I also love more indie alternative type of artists. So don't catergorize people.
But this is a site devoted to Prince, who is a mainstream commercial high grossing artist, so it's natural people who come here have an interest in MTV mainstream artists. If you want to hear about more underground artists, go to a site of one of those artists.

Madonna's career is definately something that young female artist should aspire to, but it will never happen in the music industry today. I don't see many female singers today (maybe 4 or 5) with the staying power of Madonna. The industry today turns out cookie cutter artist who will be forgotten in the next few years. The age of music icons like Madonna, Prince, And Michael Jackson are over.