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Printable[quote] midnightmover said: vainandy said: And read the little gray quote box in which you quoted me to make this reply. Read the part about "Outstanding" in the little gray box and another post I made earlier about how things would have been dull if every other song had been midtempo. You had to have read it because you quoted it. Looks like krayzie is back with a new screen name. 
As for midtempo songs, even back in the day, I really didn't see them as serving a purpose. They were nice to listen to every now and then but they sure as hell weren't something that I played as the majority of my songs or neither did anyone else because midtempo songs were in the minority back then and should have stayed that way. I didn't start hating midtempo songs until midtempo songs became the only thing being made. Your comment about "Outstanding" was only made AFTER you dismissed all midtempo songs. You were basically correcting yourself after the fact. Well hell, with anything there are exceptions. And when most people say "all" they are usually meaning "most". That's just known. Nice to see you toned down the militancy.
 Oh, I get very militant when there is nothing made that I like. People say "live and let live" but the music industry hasn't followed the "live and let live" rule when it comes to making various types of music. Naturally, those that have nothing new to listen to that they like are going to raise hell. If they are smart they will. Andy is a four letter word. | |
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Riverpoet31 said: Sorry, i dont hear it Blaqueknight.
I find her music way too polished, calculated and her silly 'new age'-lyrics sure dont help either. Define "polished". What do YOU think that means as it pertains to music? Did you listen to Baduizm at all? Hell, Prince's music could be called "polished" in a sense. Its very rehearsed. James Brown was "polished". I really don't get any comparison to John Legend, who is damn near a lounge singer and Alicia Keys who is pure product. I think you just have a bias against Erykah. Do realize that she helped bring live instrumentation back into the limelight in R&B? She, D'Angelo and Maxwell were the shining lights in R&B when everyone else was "R. Kelly'd" and "Jodeci'd" up. Now if you were to say that she were too mid-tempo, I could understand but too polished? Sorry. Nope. I STRONGLY disagree. The Roots were playing behind her and they recorded her first CD. Real musicians playing live instruments. Come on. How is that comparable to the sequenced CDs of Alicia Keys and the sample-laden songs of John Legend? Polished? I disagree. [Edited 11/21/08 11:29am] | |
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Personally i dont think the tempo of a song doesnt necesarily say a thing about the quality of the music.
So, saying: R&B has been killed by to many midtempo songs, doesnt make sense IMO. As i said earlier, it allready started in the late seventies, the decline of R&B. I know vainandy will disagree with me... lol... but the music of bands like Zapp and Earth Wind and Fire, and artists like Edwin Starr and Rick James allready became to plastic and 'synthesized' for its own good, i think. While some anthems from Sly Stone like 'I want to take you higher', 'Stand' and 'If you want me to stay' still impress, early eighties funk by Cameo and Zapp mostly sounds dated and cheesy. And when it comes to the female singers: the slick navle starring of the likes of Erykah Badu and India Arie simply can't compete with the real, direct soul showed by the likes of Aretha Franklin and Etta James. | |
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Blaque knight,
It is just my opinion: I think Erakyh Badu expresses 'a pose'. IMO she 'plays' the sophisticated, quasi-wise black lady. She is roleplaying, at least, that is how she makes me feel. You might feel different about her, but i don't feel she is authentic. | |
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Timmy84 said: Riverpoet31 said: IMO 99 percent of so called modern R&B sucks.
I personally think its a disgrace that the term R&B is nowadays being used for music that used to be soulfull, passionate and raw (Otis Redding, Aretha Franklin, Sam Cooke, The Meters, etc). Contemporary R&B is in essence 'polished commercial pop'. Music to 'score' commercially, most of the time dealing with superficial images (being 'cool', being popular with the ladies, having lots of bling-bling). Even the so-called 'Nu Soul' suffers from that kind of slickness, i think. Music from the likes of Erykah Badu, Alicia Keys and John Legend is ultimately too 'slick' for its own good. Not that is something new or so. I think that process was allready starting in the late seventies and early eighties, with the 'discofying' of soul and funk. It was obvious allready with the likes of Midnight Star and Atlantic Ocean in the eighties. And it went even further downwards with New Jack Swing in the nineties, and the totally uninspired and generic R&B by the likes of Rhianna and Beyonce in this new millenium. Its like the contemporary 'R&B' artists simply dont have to guts to just make music for themselves, that it always has to be polished up and made 'slick' for the sake of what? commercial succes? stardom? A shame, In my opinion. I think there were factors that went into R&B's fallout, so to say, or whoever is blamed for it: 1.) Black artists who were originally funk artists doing soft rock (Lionel Richie, Geoffrey Osbourne, Larry Graham, Kool & the Gang) 2.) The crossover success of Thriller 3.) The arrival of Whitney Houston 4.) Hip-hop's acceptance into R&B that then went to New Jack Swing and then hip-hop soul and finally contemporary R&B 5.) Sean "Puffy" Combs and his collaborations with Jodeci, Mary J. Blige and Faith Evans and incorporating elements of gangsta rap with R&B singers and sampling classic eighties funk/R&B tunes (which he shamelessly admitted in that Ma$e song) 6.) People wanting to be like Mike 
I'm sure there's more, lol. You may be young but you are dead right on all counts. Just goes to show, like I said earlier, that there are exceptions to everything. Andy is a four letter word. | |
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BlaqueKnight said:
Do realize that she helped bring live instrumentation back into the limelight in R&B? She, D'Angelo and Maxwell were the shining lights in R&B when everyone else was "R. Kelly'd" and "Jodeci'd" up. Now if you were to say that she were too mid-tempo, I could understand but too polished? Sorry. Nope. I agree. The three acts you listed bore the hell out of me but they did bring live instruments back for a short while. If they had sped things up, I definately could have gotten into them. Andy is a four letter word. | |
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Riverpoet31 said: Blaque knight,
It is just my opinion: I think Erakyh Badu expresses 'a pose'. IMO she 'plays' the sophisticated, quasi-wise black lady. She is roleplaying, at least, that is how she makes me feel. You might feel different about her, but i don't feel she is authentic. She is what one might call.....a poser. | |
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Riverpoet31 said:
I know vainandy will disagree with me... lol... but the music of bands like Zapp and Earth Wind and Fire, and artists like Edwin Starr and Rick James allready became to plastic and 'synthesized' for its own good, i think. You forgot "Atlantic Ocean" which you mentioned in your first post.
While some anthems from Sly Stone like 'I want to take you higher', 'Stand' and 'If you want me to stay' still impress, early eighties funk by Cameo and Zapp mostly sounds dated and cheesy.
What makes Sly and The Family Stone more impressive than groups like Cameo or Zapp? Could it be because that acts like Sly and The Family Stone are the type of acts that Prince has named as his influences when he was growing up? Andy is a four letter word. | |
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I'd suggest u get a hold of:
Ledisi Frank McComb Mint Condition Conya Doss Monica Blaine Eric Roberson.....a few real R&B artist around 2day. | |
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Whitney's first album was good R&B. Its Whitney's SECOND release that became a problem.
As to Erykah, I go off what I hear, not my feelings. Musically, her first CD is damn near sloppy, one of the most poorly mixed CDs on the R&B market at the time and yet it was excellent in content. How you could call it "polished" is beyond me, especially since it was her introduction and none of us knew anything about her. I understand not liking her voice or whatever but her CD was not her alone. So you believe that each musician is being insincere in their instrument? Bullshit. That's back when the Roots were hungry and trying to come up. She may be more predictable NOW but NOBODY predicted her on her first release. As a matter of fact, she was the opposite of what was going on in R&B at the time. Female singers were all on that Mariah Carey, Toni Braxton tip before Erykah. And I also disagree that R&B declined in the 80s. And you do realize that Kool and the Gang and Earth Wind and Fire were around before the 80s, don't you? I'm starting to question just how much you actually know about R&B music. [Edited 11/21/08 11:55am] | |
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even though I respect artists like jill scott and erykah badu, it's like they worked too hard to polish the music to be taken seriously when in the past it was done effortlessly
As for Beyonce, I like her a lot, but for her talent more than the music cause her music grows old after a year since it's too contemporary and tries too hard to fit in with mainstream. I like her ballads on the new album and some of the dance tunes, but songs like video phone and diva are garbage and try to hard to be hip hop | |
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Quote:
What makes Sly and The Family Stone more impressive than groups like Cameo or Zapp? Could it be because that acts like Sly and The Family Stone are the type of acts that Prince has named as his influences when he was growing up? Nope, they simply made more urgent, heartfelt music. | |
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Riverpoet31 said: Nope, they simply made more urgent, heartfelt music. 
 | |
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Quote:
And you do realize that Kool and the Gang and Earth Wind and Fire were around before the 80s, don't you? Of course I do, but they were never my kind of bands. I blame them for 'discofying' the original pure, raw funk. The Meters, James Brown untill the early seventies, Sly Stone (with his brilliant funk-rock-soul-psychedalica mix), The George Clinton camp during the seventies, Prince during albums like 1999 and The Black album, the funk-rock 'crossover' from bands like Fishbone, Living Colour and The Urban Dance Squad. Those all were artists that played funk like it should be IMO: direct, on instinct, raw, uncut. Bands like Kool and the gang and Earth Wird and fire only watered it down to fancy suits, las vegas glamour, and most important: unoffensive, superficial quasi-disco.... Bleeeh. | |
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Getting back to why music became more mid-tempo and slow song oriented in the 90s - I'm still taking it back to Babyface. The rise in popularity of female singers, the LaFace domination...all of the things I mentioned in the first post. The almost instantaneous rise of rap into the mainstream also contributed. [Edited 11/21/08 12:29pm] | |
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BlaqueKnight said: Getting back to why music became more mid-tempo and slow song oriented in the 90s - I'm still taking it back to Babyface. The rise in popularity of female singers, the LaFace domination...all of the things I mentioned in the first post. The almost instantaneous rise of rap into the mainstream also contributed.
[Edited 11/21/08 12:29pm] I may have 2 agree with u. | |
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I remember listening to Paula's Forever Your Girl which I've had for years and one day I looked at who the producers were and was shocked that Babyface did some of the uptempos, cause I only knew him for the current r&b at the time and wondered how things changed so fast? He did work on Karyn White's first album too which is a good album but the ballads sound a lot like the 90's ballads so I could tell it was slowly progressing into slow r&b | |
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alphastreet said: I remember listening to Paula's Forever Your Girl which I've had for years and one day I looked at who the producers were and was shocked that Babyface did some of the uptempos, cause I only knew him for the current r&b at the time and wondered how things changed so fast? He did work on Karyn White's first album too which is a good album but the ballads sound a lot like the 90's ballads so I could tell it was slowly progressing into slow r&b That's because before Babyface was out on his own, he was in a badass funk band called The Deele. They had hard jams like "Body Talk", "Material Thangz", "Can U Dance", etc. Babyface comes from a hard group but from what I've seen in interviews, he wanted to weaken their music even back in the day and the rest of the band laughed at him and called his songs "waterfall music" and said the public wouldn't like it. Little did anyone know that music would take a drastic turn for the dull kind because everyone was throwing down so hard back then. . . . [Edited 11/21/08 13:00pm] Andy is a four letter word. | |
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I know about Deele now, but didn't yet at the time. And speaking of Waterfalls, didn't he also write TLC's hit? I think that song is one of their most boring ones to be honest, I loved it when it came out, but I never liked it the way I loved their other stuff. | |
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alphastreet said: I know about Deele now, but didn't yet at the time. And speaking of Waterfalls, didn't he also write TLC's hit? I think that song is one of their most boring ones to be honest, I loved it when it came out, but I never liked it the way I loved their other stuff. I don't know if he wrote it or not because I didn't keep up with him after he left The Deele. Well, at least I tried not to keep up with him but radio made it impossible.
I halfway liked the song when it first came out but it didn't take me long to become bored with it because in typical 1990s fashion, radio took a handful of songs, played only those songs, and wore them out to the point that they make you eventually hate the songs. Andy is a four letter word. | |
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Timmy84 said: midnightmover said: The whole tempo issue is a red herring. No one tempo is better than another. The problem with R&B is not the tempo.
No one's got soul anymore Anthony Hamilton Frank McComb Eric Roberson Dwele Liv Warfield Ledisi Ledisi Xantone Blacq Xantone Blacq [Edited 11/21/08 14:00pm] | |
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Shango said:
Anthony Hamilton I heard Anthony Hamilton rehearse once and thought it sounded absolutely wonderful. Of course, they were using real drums, bass, and instruments. Then I got in my car and heard the same song on the radio with shit hop sounding drum machines and it sounded absolutely horrible. What makes me furious with artists like those, is that they use real instruments in concert but not in the studio when they make their albums. Concerts are only attended by a few people and aren't going to influence a change in today's music as a whole. Albums are what get played on the radio so enough artists using real instruments on the albums could influence music as a whole to change. Of course, radio and record labels know this and I'm sure that's why they won't let artists use them in the studio. Anything that isn't as cheap to make as shit hop that might catch on and kill shit hop, they aren't going to give airplay or even a record deal. The music business these days is all business and no music. . . . [Edited 11/21/08 13:35pm] Andy is a four letter word. | |
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vainandy said: Shango said:
Anthony Hamilton I heard Anthony Hamilton rehearse once and thought it sounded absolutely wonderful. Of course, they were using real drums, bass, and instruments. Then I got in my car and heard the same song on the radio with shit hop sounding drum machines and it sounded absolutely horrible. What makes me furious with artists like those, is that they use real instruments in concert but not in the studio when they make their albums. Concerts are only attended by a few people and aren't going to influence a change in today's music as a whole. Albums are what get played on the radio so enough artists using real instruments on the albums could influence music as a whole to change. Of course, radio and record labels know this and I'm sure that's why they won't let artists use them in the studio. Anything that isn't as cheap to make as shit hop that might catch on and kill shit hop, they aren't going to give airplay or even a record deal. The music business these days is all business and no music. . . . [Edited 11/21/08 13:35pm] I don't know if it matters.....Mint Condition comes 2 mind. | |
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Graycap23 said: vainandy said: I heard Anthony Hamilton rehearse once and thought it sounded absolutely wonderful. Of course, they were using real drums, bass, and instruments. Then I got in my car and heard the same song on the radio with shit hop sounding drum machines and it sounded absolutely horrible. What makes me furious with artists like those, is that they use real instruments in concert but not in the studio when they make their albums. Concerts are only attended by a few people and aren't going to influence a change in today's music as a whole. Albums are what get played on the radio so enough artists using real instruments on the albums could influence music as a whole to change. Of course, radio and record labels know this and I'm sure that's why they won't let artists use them in the studio. Anything that isn't as cheap to make as shit hop that might catch on and kill shit hop, they aren't going to give airplay or even a record deal. The music business these days is all business and no music. . . . [Edited 11/21/08 13:35pm] I don't know if it matters.....Mint Condition comes 2 mind. I love "What Kind Of Man Would I Be" and bought the cassette single back in the 1990s. I don't think I've ever heard an uptempo jam from them though....well, at least not on the radio. I don't have any of their albums but I'm sure if they did have any uptempo jams I wouldn't know about them because radio would never play them. If enough slow artists making real music could get a lot of radio airplay, then maybe other artists making real music would come back in and eventually speed the tempo back up. It would definately be a step in the right direction but if bands never came back throwing down the hard uptempo jams, I would still bitch because it's just fucking rediculous that no uptempo jams are being made. Fucking rediculous. I feel like I'm living in the damn Mozart era.
. . . [Edited 11/21/08 13:44pm] Andy is a four letter word. | |
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i loved the late 90s and i also think rnb was the best during the 90s |
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vainandy said: I love "What Kind Of Man Would I Be" and bought the cassette single back in the 1990s. I don't think I've ever heard an uptempo jam from them though....well, at least not on the radio. I don't have any of their albums but I'm sure if they did have any uptempo jams I wouldn't know about them because radio would never play them. If enough slow artists making real music could get a lot of radio airplay, then maybe other artists making real music would come back in and eventually speed the tempo back up. It would definately be a step in the right direction but if bands never came back throwing down the hard uptempo jams, I would still bitch because it's just fucking rediculous that no uptempo jams are being made. Fucking rediculous. I feel like I'm living in the damn Mozart era.
. . . [Edited 11/21/08 13:44pm] Mint Condition's 1991 debut Meant to be Mint was a funk album. The first single are you free an uptempo jam failed miserably and that's because it was the weakest uptempo song on the album. The band scored with the ballads pretty brown eyes and forever in your eyes. There were only 3 ballads on the first album. Some of the album was hard funk like true to thee and she's a honey. Then by the second album mint gradually gravitated towards ballads but they also managed to squeeze in their EWF like interludes and rock tracks. On the second album the first single was the uptempo nobody does it betta but it didn't do well chartwise. Then they released U send me swingin, someone to love, and so fine and all those songs did well on the charts another sign that radio wasn't trying to hear funk anymore. Also mint developed a huge female fan base. These guys are great live and can play funk if they want to but they have a lot more females who want to hear them sing ballads than guys who want them to play funk. If you attend one of their shows they will probably play 3 uptempo songs and the rest midtempos and ballads. These guys know their audience and what will get them airplay. Don't laugh at my funk
This funk is a serious joint | |
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R & B and Hip-Hop need to divorce...musically...like yesterday. don't get me wrong. i like both music genres but together all the time? it gets tired after awhile.
i'm playing "Don't Believe The Hype" by Public Enemy when instead of Chuck D,i hear Keith Washington  WTF? | |
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vainandy said: And you remember who Brandy has said her idol is don't you?
Anyway,this is one reason why I listen to so much late-70s/early 80s music.Back then,the tempo was FAST on many songs.Take O'Bryan's "I'm Freaky" for example.Kids today wouldn't even know how to groove to a jam like that....they're used to all this midtempo shit hop garbage. | |
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BlaqueKnight said: vainandy said: And read the little gray quote box in which you quoted me to make this reply. Read the part about "Outstanding" in the little gray box and another post I made earlier about how things would have been dull if every other song had been midtempo. You had to have read it because you quoted it. Looks like krayzie is back with a new screen name.
As for midtempo songs, even back in the day, I really didn't see them as serving a purpose. They were nice to listen to every now and then but they sure as hell weren't something that I played as the majority of my songs or neither did anyone else because midtempo songs were in the minority back then and should have stayed that way. I didn't start hating midtempo songs until midtempo songs became the only thing being made. Part of it is BALANCE. Remember back in the day, we had mid-tempo grooves on the radio but not nearly AS MANY as there are today. Mid-tempo dominates the airwaves. You rarely hear anything over 101 bpm. That's why songs like Hey Ya stood out so much. It was sooo much faster than all of the music around it. Exactly.Back in the day,we had midtempo songs but we also had alot of fast,relentless jams to balance it all out.These days,most R&B songs seem to be midtempo ("Touch My Body" by Mariah Carey...."Be Without You" by Mary J.Blige,etc).These type of songs put me to sleep.You could buy a modern-day R&B album and nearly EVERY song on it would be the same tempo.If more songs were as fast as "Hey Ya!",I wouldn't even be complaining. . [Edited 11/24/08 6:29am] | |
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SoulAlive said: BlaqueKnight said: Part of it is BALANCE. Remember back in the day, we had mid-tempo grooves on the radio but not nearly AS MANY as there are today. Mid-tempo dominates the airwaves. You rarely hear anything over 101 bpm. That's why songs like Hey Ya stood out so much. It was sooo much faster than all of the music around it. Exactly.Back in the day,we had midtempo songs but we also had alot of fast,relentless jams to balance it all out.These days,most R&B songs seem to be midtempo ("Touch My Body" by Mariah Carey...."Be Without You" by Mary J.Blige,etc).These type of songs put me to sleep.You could buy a modern-day R&B album and nearly EVERY song on it would be the same tempo.If more songs were as fast as "Hey Ya!",I wouldn't even be complaining. . [Edited 11/24/08 6:29am] But the difference between "Hey Ya!" and "Touch My Body" is much more than just the tempo. It's the instrumentation. HY has guitars with reverb on them, tinkling keyboards, a harder drum sound, a bass working with the bass drum to give the track more of a punch. TMB has just a weak drum beat and a lazy keyboard part and, errr, nothing else. So whilst I agree it would be nice to have more up tempo tunes, I really don't think that's the main problem. Hell, listen to Rick James' "Mary Jane". That's mid tempo, but it's light years above TMB. “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson | |
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