LittleAmy said:

Again, I never said it was a hip hop song. All I'm saying is that it warrants consideration as one. I'm not an expert.



Your original quote made it seem as if I made out that I had overstated its impact. I don't know how many times I must make it abundantly clear that I have no idea how much of an impact it had on the development of hip hop or how influential it was. All I do know is that it (a) features a rap, (b) has been sampled by a few hip hop legends, and (c) charted higher than any other Blondie song on the R&B charts. That's it!



I'm not taking anyone's "word" as gospel. I'm genuinely curious about the question of its status as a hip hop song or not. It seems that it is debatable, as several people have chimed in on both sides of the argument. The only reason I have engaged you in conversation is that I felt that your tone was needlessly condescending.

Actually, I wanted to address this point too, but it isn't coming up in the quote for some reason.



Then why didn't "Heart of Glass", "Call Me" or "The Tide Is High" (songs that were much, much bigger hits than "Rapture") even appear anywhere on the R&B charts?



One more time- I'm no expert on what makes a song "hip hop", nor have I pretended to be one. So the answer to that is that I don't know!

LittleAmy said:

I didn't defend him against your points, I defended him against your snarky tone.

Going through the thread, I count 9 responses that indicate that it is a hip hop song, and 9 that indicate that it isn't. So there are arguments to be made on both sides. Obviously you think your argument is the correct one, and you know what? Perhaps it is. I'm less interested in categorizing the song itself than I am about celebrating it and hearing other points of view.

Ah, I see Najee is trolling around here too

FuNkeNsteiN said:

What I find fascinating is that some of the quotes from this thread are nearly identical to his posts in the NE thread.

Moonbeam said:

"Repeating the same old tired things"

Dude must have a ready stockpile of borderline racist spam he randomly picks out and posts on threads
[Edited 6/30/08 8:21am]

LittleAmy said:

when did i say these two songs were THE defining inspirations of hip-hop? i said that they were AMONG the inspirations for some of the sounds and beats of early hip-hop. do you KNOW anything about the song "fame", where the beat of that song came from, what the "young americans" album was all about? i bet you probably didn't even know that luther vandross was all over that album. do you know anything about the fusion of east village punk and new york hip-hop that brought the song "rapture" into being? don't come at me with your cynicism, presumption and condescention until you can at least prove you know what YOU are talking about, cuz i know very well what i'm talking about.

BlaqueKnight said:

What would you say to those who say "Rapture" had an influence on hip-hop subsequent to the late 70's and early 80's? Again, in the patchwork motif of hip-hop, Sesame Street and Johnny Cash have had their influences. That doesn't mean they should be considered hip-hop.

Plus, it may have had an impact on hip-hop for the very reasons you mentioned: the fact that it wasn't a pure hip-hop record but was (and is) nevertheless associated with "hip-hop" of that period, arguably helped hip-hop gain a foothold in the larger public consciousness.

namepeace said:

I would say "prove it."
Some on here are trying to call "Rapture" the first rap record when it was not a rap record. King Timm III was technically the first rap record. Rapper's delight was the first one that charted. Because a song has elements of genre, that doesn't make it an influence over a genre. I say nobody was going out starting to rap after hearing "Rapture" and patterning themselves after Blondie. To those that say something different, I say "prove it." I disagree that Rapture had anything directly to do with hip-hop and its movement. It did NOT bring mass attention to the genre of rap because rap remained underground for the most part until the late 80s - early 90s. It was blacks and latinos doing street dancing and rappin' and nobody was checking for Rapture, which was considered "corny" by the hip-hop crowd even after it came to pass. I get sick of people trying to re-write history by just saying some crazy stuff and thinking its going to be "true because its on the internet."
[Edited 6/30/08 14:48pm]

Those were definately the artists of the early 1980s. And don't forget Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde, Felix and Jarvis, Newcleus, The Jonzun Crew, Wuff Ticket, Divine Sounds, etc.

I don't see Blondie's "Rapture" as disco because it was either 1980 or 1981 when that song came out and disco was already considered "dead" by then. However, the funk of those very early 1980s years such as Change and The SOS Band still had a very "discoish" sound lingering in their music. I wouldn't consider it a full fledged rap song either because there were very few that people were actually calling "rap" during those years. Maybe up in New York City or somewhere, they might have been referring to it as a genre but everywhere else simply considered it funk, R&B, soul, or whatever the particular person used to refer to "black" music at the time. We all knew they were rapping but, hell, we just called it funk because rap during those years, was funky (unfortunately, it didn't remain funky).

I see Blondie's "Rapture" as maybe an attempt to get a crossover hit on black radio like Queen had done in that recent era with "Another One Bites The Dust". Because Grandmaster Flash had exposed her to some rap, I think she was simply adding a cool new type of section in the middle of her song because rap, in those days, was catchy, fun, and very danceable. Teena Marie's "Square Biz" and Stacy Lattisaw's "Feel My Love Tonight" did the same thing about a year later. I would throw Frankie Smith in the same category. His music was funky, but if you think about it, Frankie was actually rapping rather than singing. As I said before, even though it was a rap, and there were a few rap groups at the time, most people weren't calling things rap as a genre. The genre was still considered to be funk by many (especially since most of the early rap groups made original songs with instruments and simply rapped over them instead of singing). Hell, it was funk. And if you remember, during those days, when someone said the word "rap", most people thought of the talking sections of a slow song by folks like Millie Jackson and Lenny Williams.

As for the shit hoppers being influenced by Blondie, absolutely not. She threw down too hard for them. They weren't even influenced by the early rap groups such as Soul Sonic Force, Pretty Tony and Freestyle, Twilight 22, Newcleus, etc. The shit hoppers started being influenced by those underground rap groups of the late 1980s. The ones that the mainstream R&B stations didn't play because they were too slow and dull to fit in with their format. If you notice, only the rap jams made it to R&B mainstream for most of the 1980s. That's because we had much better taste and knew the difference between what was an actual song and what was simply a dull stripped down beat with some "talking" over it. Nowadays, it's the opposite. The jams are underground and the dull shit is the mainstream.
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[Edited 6/30/08 15:09pm]

vainandy said:

Exactly! I called it a funk song. It wasn't even a "rap song" per se because as you said rap wasn't as popular in the mainstream back then.

Anxiety said:

Yeah, I am familiar with "Fame" and I have David Bowie's "Young Americans." Yes, I knew Luther Vandross was a background singer and a contributor to the album (and knew that when he was doing jingles). I also know in 30 years I have never heard a rap artist or any passage referring to "Young Americans" or "Fame" in particular as a seminal influence to the development of rap. For that matter, I've never heard them referenced in any context of rap music before coming into this thread.

All you have to do is produce some interview with a founding member of rap music and cite someone saying he or she was influenced to get into the game by "Rapture" or "Fame."
[Edited 6/30/08 16:05pm]

BlaqueKnight said:

Damn, Blaque, take it easy. There are enough black men dying of hypertension, we don't need one more, over damn Blondie song!

The argument wasn't about "Rapture" having a direct contribution But another source from which hip-hop could mine for beats and rhymes. Grandmaster Flash sampled it for his "Grandmaster Flash on the Wheels of Steel" jawn. Ditto the Jungle Brothers in "In Dayz To Come." And KRS-ONE's "Step Into A World" (which undeniably lifts the chorus). Not because it is hip-hop per se. But because it was a part of American mainstream culture, and therefore prone to be used and reinterpreted.

That's what hip-hop does. Artists appropriate from it, and eventually, hip-hop will take at least a little bit of it back.

Blondie did what all artists have done with black American music since its inception. For whatever reason, people actually believe the song put hip-hop on the map, which is absurd. There are many people who misassociated it with hip-hop when it dropped and many who are still doing it because they do not understand what the term encompasses. Usher has been called a hip-hop artist. Fergie has been called a hip-hop artist. That doesn't make them so.

Blondie was among the first to be associated with the genre by the larger public, rightly or (as I believe) wrongly.

There are some people who first heard the term "hip-hop" because of Blondie. Just like many first heard of "swing" because of Bennie Goodman or "rock and roll" because of Elivs Presley.

That was true years before the Internet, and it's true now.

No one's saying it's right.

Oh and to re-answer the question:

No, I don't consider "Rapture" hip-hop. It's a funk song.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, Blondie's "Rapture" didn't even get played on the R&B stations in my area back then. It was all over pop radio though. I don't know why R&B radio didn't pick it up because it was a perfect song to fit their format at the time. I remember about a year later, hearing a white group on R&B radio that was rapping on a song called "General Hospital" (a silly song about the show). Hell, it might have even been Blondie or maybe her going by her name, Debbie Harry. I can't remember who did that song but it wasn't near as good as "Rapture" and they played it.

Then there was Rich Little in 1981 on all the R&B stations in my area. He had a song called "President's Rapp" and it was very popular in my area. He wasn't rapping in rhymes, he was simply talking humorously through the song (in a Ronald Reagan voice) over the music to The Tom Tom Club's "Genius Of Love" (not sampled, but re-recorded). Remember, rap at that time, was still known to a lot of folks as the same thing Millie Jackson did when she broke down her songs.

vainandy said:

Right. Yeah I don't remember R&B radio playing "Rapture" at all especially when it gets to '80s night. You'll hear "Another One Bites the Dust" or "I Can't Go for That" but never "Rapture". Millie Jackson, Isaac Hayes and Joe Tex and 'em were precursors to "rap" since the slang for "rap" in those days was "jive".

vainandy said:

Wow. You might not want to admit that. But I actually remember that too!

Moonbeam said:

Obviously, Blondie wasn't an artist that was going to have an audience with the R&B/soul market so whatever airplay or notice "Rapture" got was going to be considerably more than what the group's other hit songs got. It was the opposite of an act like Lakeside having little presence with rock/pop audiences for its career.

"Rapture" was going to get some attention (it wasn't played on the radio stations where I lived, FWIW) because it is a song featuring a woman rapping at the end, but it's evident the song was hardly some hit on the R&B market. And for what we know about rappers then and now, an M.C.'s entire delivery is usually (and primarily) rapping. Debbie Harry evidently wasn't trying to be a full-fledged rapper, nor was Lakeside trying to become a rap group with its song "Fantastic Voyage."

You also have to understand rap was in its formative stages and partly was more or less speeded-up party chanting circa 1980. So for acts like Lakeside, Teena Marie and etc., it was a novelty way of chanting.
[Edited 6/30/08 16:10pm]

And there was The Soul Children, Betty Wright, Bobby Rush, hell, all the bluesy type singers. Prince even had his "rap" in "Do Me, Baby". It was still well known for being the spoken part of a song. And don't forget Richard "Dimples" Fields with "She's Got Papers On Me" and "Taking Applications". And Marlena Shaw. Hell, I did an entire thread on this a few years ago.

Damn, I finally found someone else that remembers that song! Who was the artist?

Timmy84 said:

What's funny is, that same year, Gil Scott-Heron dropped Reflections with the eerily prophetic "B-Movie," a classic protest song which is one of his many contributions as a hip-hop forefather. I'd consider that hip-hop before "Rapture."

vainandy said:

Yep yep.

vainandy said:

It was such an abomination that I blocked it out of my head. An insult to both hip-hop AND General Hospital!

namepeace said:

You think this song is a precursor to hip-hop:

And don't forget that absolutely stupid ass song called "Rickey". It was another rap song by a white group to the beat of Toni Basil's "Mickey" but they changed it to "Rickey" (about Rickey Ricardo) and used a Lucille Ball voice and whine in the song. Now, that one was a horrible one. See, white people were doing rap long before Vanilla Ice.

namepeace said:

Blondie's "Rapture" was the opposite number of Lakeside's "Fantastic Voyage," which came out roughly the same time as "Rapture."

"Rapture" was a rock/pop song; "Fantastic Voyage" was a funk song.

The rap for "Rapture" was at the end; for "Fantastic Voyage," the first rap was at the beginning of the song.

Both went No. 1 in their primary markets and did considerably worse in their secondary markets.

And just like I couldn't make an argument for "Fantastic Voyage" being a hip-hop song (and it also has been sampled quite a bit), I can't make one for "Rapture."

vainandy said:

Wait?

You're talking about the Weird Al joint?

Is that who that was? Hell, I thought that Loony Toon's first record was "Eat It".
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[Edited 6/30/08 15:54pm]