The first released rap single (BEFORE Sugar Hill):

whether or not you think it's a hip-hop song, i think it's every bit as essential to hip-hop as kraftwerk or "fame" or any of the other dance music that inspired a lot of early hip-hop.

The first released rap single (BEFORE Sugar Hill):



Now you talkin timmy. I remember this very well in middle school and sugar
hill was born months later.
This is kinda like in 1986 Run Dmc's raising hell got credit for being the
first platinum rap album when Whodini's Back in Black actually went platinum
first being released a couple of months earlier but Raising Hell surpassed it
Back in Black in total sales later.

That song clearly has hip-hop cred, since KRS-One sorta "sampled" it:

I like the song, but just because a person raps doesn't make it Hip-Hop. Don't confuse the two. Also, a rapper is not necessarily an M.C.

I like the song, but just because a person raps doesn't make it Hip-Hop. Don't confuse the two. Also, a rapper is not necessarily an M.C.

LittleAmy said:

True.

Anxiety said:

Like hell it is. Blondie wrote Rapture AFTER being introduced to the street culture of rapping by Fab 5 Freddie that became what people now call hip-hop. Blondie wasn't an influence on the genre and I'll bet you 100 to 1 that you won't find one rapper from back in the day that said "I started rapping after hearing "Rapture". Kraftwerk was a big influence on what has become electronica and their music was a part of the initial stages of hip-hop. Fame? the movie? I'm not even going there. That's some B.S.

The culture of hip-hop was based around more than just rapping and if you want to give Blondie credit for something, try creating an iconic 80s song rather than as a hip-hop artist.

"fame the tv show"

i was talking about "fame" the DAVID BOWIE SONG!!!

Anxiety said:

You're kidding, right? As someone who grew up with the start of the hip-hop culture, where are you getting this idea David Bowie's "Fame" was relevant to the development of hip hop? That sounds like some "white expert on black culture, smartest kid in the room" logic, if I ever heard of it.
[Edited 6/29/08 17:34pm]

Why are you being so judgmental of Anx? He's a peaceful, docile creature.

Moonbeam said:

That's not being judgmental. But at the same time, let's not rewrite history as if hip-hop artists and the rap movement were inspired by "Rapture" and "Fame." Next thing you know, someone is going to say Jerry Lee Lewis was the true "Godfather of Soul" and he invented funk.

I love this song

LittleAmy said:

You said, "That sounds like some 'white expert on black culture, smartest kid in the room' logic, if I ever heard of it," which is quite a judgmental statement. There's a way to share your knowledge without being condescending.

Moonbeam said:

Moonbeam, no one who was around at the beginning of hip-hop is going to sit here and claim "Rapture" as part of the hip-hop movement. Its simply WASN'T. It was DISCO - just the opposite of where hip-hop was headed. Let's stay on topic and not get caught up in side talk. Blondie was NOT an influence on hip-hop culture no matter how bad some people would like to re-write history. Neither was "Fame".

In 1981, three different artists used rap verses in hit dance songs (forgive me if "Rapture" was issued in '80) that featured female artists rapping:

Here's Blondie's rap in "Rapture":
Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's high
DJ's spinnin' are savin' my mind
Flash is fast, Flash is cool
Francois sez fas, Flashe' no do
And you don't stop, sure shot
Go out to the parking lot
And you get in your car and you drive real far
And you drive all night and then you see a light
And it comes right down and lands on the ground
And out comes a man from Mars
And you try to run but he's got a gun
And he shoots you dead and he eats your head
And then you're in the man from Mars
You go out at night, eatin' cars
You eat Cadillacs, Lincolns too
Mercuries and Subarus
And you don't stop, you keep on eatin' cars
Then, when there's no more cars
You go out at night and eat up bars where the people meet
Face to face, dance cheek to cheek
One to one, man to man
Dance toe to toe
Don't move too slow, 'cause the man from Mars
Is through with cars, he's eatin' bars
Yeah, wall to wall, door to door, hall to hall
He's gonna eat 'em all
Rapture, be pure
Take a tour, through the sewer
Don't strain your brain, paint a train
You'll be singin' in the rain
I said don't stop, do punk rock

Well now you see what you wanna be
Just have your party on TV
'Cause the man from Mars won't eat up bars when the TV's on
And now he's gone back up to space
Where he won't have a hassle with the human race
And you hip-hop, and you don't stop
Just blast off, sure shot
'Cause the man from Mars stopped eatin' cars and eatin' bars
And now he only eats guitars, get up!

Now here's Teena Marie's "Square Biz":
Baby, what's happening
Entre vous Lady Tee
I've heard a boatload of others ladies' raps
But they ain't got nothin' on me
I'm less than five foot one, a hundred pounds of fun
I like sophisticated funk
I live on Dom Perignon, caviar, filet mignon
And you can best believe that's bunk
Here's what I'm talking, baby
Square Biz, Square Biz

I've been called Casper, Shorty, Lil' Bit
And some they call me Vanilla Child
But you know that don't mean my world to me
'Cause baby, names can't cramp my style
[I love chick-icken] And Buff's collard greens
A little hot water corn bread
I love you too Cat daddy
But don't you let that go to your head
That's what I'm talking, baby
Square Biz, Square Biz

You know I love spirituals and rock
Sarah Vaughn, Johann Sebastian Bach
Shakespeare, Maya Angelou
And Nikki Giovanni just to name a few
Well, I'm wild and peaceful Lady Tee
I got to keep my irons in the fire, you see
I got the point, the scam, the low, the deal
What you feel, say what

Now here's Mary Wells' raps on "Gigolo":
He's no fool 'cause he went to school
He's a gigolo man, real cool
Walks like a cat with a grace and stride
Swingin' his arms from side to side (repeat 2X)

My guy rides around in a limousine car
At the bar in the back that serves caviar, say what (Gigolo)
My guy likes to dance, how he really can go
He's the winner of the dance they called the Gigolo, say what (Gigolo)
----
Now which rap is better?

I say Lady Tee's.

Look, I was born in 1980. I'm not claiming to be some all-knowing authority on the genesis and evolution of hip hop (or any genre, for that matter). All I know is that it was the first song featuring a rap to reach the top 10 in the US, and that it has been sampled by a number of hip hop artists.

My comment to LittleAmy did not call to question her opinion about "Rapture" or its status as a hip hop song, but rather the manner in which she shared it.

Moonbeam said:

[color=indigo]1.) Blondie's "Rapture" was a No. 1 hit on the pop charts in 1981 (and no factor on the R&B charts), in no small part because by the end of 1979 there was a more distinct line between rock/pop (mainstream white) and soul (mainstream black) music demographics. There was a backlash of sorts against black artists in the post-disco era, so a song like The Sugar Hill Gang's "Rapper's Delight" surely wasn't going to receive any airplay on rock/pop stations.

Rapture went top 40 R&B, and Rapper's Delight charted top 40 on the pop chart.

RipHer2Shreds said:

I said in my previous response "Rapture" peaked at No. 31 on the Billboard R&B Singles charts; that's hardly a factor, particularly on what is considered a smaller genre base. Conversely, songs like Kurtis Blow's "The Breaks" (No. 6, 1980) and The Sugar Hill Gang's "Rapper's Delight" (No. 4, early 1980) were big hits on the R&B charts.

Moonbeam said:

1.) Blondie's "Rapture" was a No. 1 hit on the pop charts in 1981 (and no factor on the R&B charts), in no small part because by the end of 1979 there was a more distinct line between rock/pop (mainstream white) and soul (mainstream black) music demographics. There was a backlash of sorts against black artists in the post-disco era, so a song like The Sugar Hill Gang's "Rapper's Delight" surely wasn't going to receive any airplay on rock/pop stations. So yes, when "Rapture" came out to white audiences what Debbie Harry did on the rap was so novel to them.

IMO, this is part of the problem: White audiences feel certain styles of music aren't validated until they recognize it. That certainly was the case with rap music until the mid '90s. "Rapture" was a rock/pop song that was fully embraced in that market; it wasn't a song that was relevant to the black audience (the sole group of the emerging rap genre). It had none of the elements of musical structure associated with hip-hop music (especially then). If a song is supposed part of a genre, shouldn't it RELEVANT to that genre (the song was barely noticed on the Billboard R&B Singles charts, peaking at No. 31)?

2.) "Rapture" has been sampled a few times, which is not validation of anything save that a rapper used an element of it to make a song. It's safe to say it's never been remotely sampled as much and as prominently as James Brown's "Funky Drummer," Zapp's "More Bounce to the Ounce," George Clinton's "Atomic Dog," The Isley Brothers' "Between the Sheets," Mtume's "Juicy Fruit," etc. In fact, JB and P-Funk have had far more songs sampled than "Rapture," so that's clearly a case of overstating the impact of "Rapture."

Moonbeam said:

1.) Don't assume I'm a female.

2.) The problem I have with your and Anxiety's statements is how you're misrepresenting information. "Rapture" isn't a hip-hop song (and certainly wasn't important to its development) and David Bowie's "Fame" was something totally pulled out of the air. As someone who was a teen-ager when hip-hop emerged in the '70s and a big fan of it, I've never heard anyone associated with the genre (be it artist or fan) call "Rapture" some bridgework to their interest.

Moreover, no one has ever said white people have not contributed to the development of rap. As stated, electronica acts like Kraftwerk, The Art of Noise and Laid Back had music that was readily played in the formative stages. Rick Rubin of Def Jam Records was a very central figure. And obviously, acts like The Beastie Boys will get their due.

The way I read that statement, it sounded like someone rewriting history while not knowing about/ignoring the history of the hip-hop development (and since the majority of people on this board were born after hip-hop's emergence, seemingly thought it would fly). I'm certainly not interested nor do I care that you feel the need to defend someone else's statements.
[Edited 6/30/08 5:09am]

Just because it may not have been popular on the R&B chart does not mean that it wasn't a hip hop song. Again, I'm not necessarily saying it was- I'm merely pointing out that genres are not indicated by chart success.

Nevertheless, the fact that it did register at all on the R&B chart indicates that it received at least some radio play on typically R&B stations.

I never said that it was the most sampled song or anything. Now you're clutching at straws. The facts remain that it has been sampled by a few hip hop artists, some of whom are legendary.

"Fame" seems to have gotten some attention on R&B radio too (#21). I'm not going to claim that it (or "Rapture") was influential to the development of hip hop, because frankly, I don't know if that's the case.

That wasn't in your post when I responded. You edited your response. Anyway, just stating a chart fact (and that Sugarhill Gang charted Pop), not arguing how much it factored into the equation. I'm not arguing any position here. I asked a question when I started this thread knowing full well what sort of responses it would provoke. My bad.

RipHer2Shreds said:

C'mon, man. Two songs barely entering the top 40 doesn't mean it was relevant or a hit in that market. A song that is big in one market will get at least a nominal representation on the other chart sheerly on inertia, particularly in the pre-Soundscan era.

"Rapture" hardly had the response in R&B circles as another pop/rock song during its time (Queen's "Another One Bites the Dust," No. 2), so it seems odd that Queen's rock-edged song can have such a such success on the R&B charts but yet a song supposedly based on a black popular music structure can barely make a dent in its top 40.

You completely ignored what I said. I wasn't arguing relevance. I asked a question.