CrozzaUK said:

Barometer for talent off kilter? Theres really no differece in talent. Madonna would fit in with the Spice Girls without a hitch. Actually a couple of the girls are more talented than Madonna. And this isn't an insult. I think Spice Girls are underrated in many aspects. They have the same strengths and weaknesses. I think you could of used a better example for her barometer for talent being off kilter. I do think shes hypocritical in thinking Spice Girls are great and shes not, when you look at it they're very similar acts, but I also think you are and that your overestimating Madonnas talent if you think her talent is way above them.
[Edited 4/14/08 7:18am]

Sorry, but all of the points you made are just your opinion. I didn't dispute them becaue nothing I can say will change your mind. You are determined to hate Madonna no mattter what anyone says.

I happen to really enjoy Madonna's voice as well as do many other people. Her voice has a lovely pleasant tone which is able to put forth emotion. Listen to Live to Tell and Like A Prayer. Can you seriously say the vocals on there are terrible and she can't sing?
Anyone can state someone can't sing. That doesn't make it true. I could say Prince can't sing. Would that necessariy make him a bad singer.

Lots of people find Madonna sexy. Just because you don't doesn't mean other people don't find her very attractive and sexy. I happen to know some straight men who find her beautiful. The writer of the Vanity Fair piece as well as many other straight male writers who have met her in person often comment on her beauty.

The general consensus of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame speech was that it was generous, funny and moving. I didn't read one article or one person who was there criticizing it.

Madonna has said many times she loves music. People often change career paths but that doesn't mean that don't love what she does.

Every point you make is your opinion based on your hatred of her. I guess it makes you angry that the rest of the world doesn't share you opinion she is worthless. Not everyone is a fan, but most people don't think she is worthless and talented like you do.

jbchavez said:

She exaggerated the Winehouse angle, but the point is again valid. Winehouse makes a stark contrast with non-singers like Madonna. That is unarguably true. Whether she's great is another matter, but again, that is really just arguing over semantics, since it doesn't affect the basic point.

jbchavez said:

No! That's my point. Whether someone is a great singer is opinion and personal taste. I don't like Amy's voice and I've talked to lots of people and they feel the same way.

'greasy muff'

Glindathegood said:

Whilst I'm not mad on Amy's voice either, it is obvious she can sing without any studio trickery and still sound good. Madonna cannot as many of her fans will admit.

peppeken said:

midnightmover said:

I must have missed the basic point. I was a teenager when Madonna released her first cd. I knew back then that Madonna wasn't a great singer. The media knew it and talked about it. Obviously, her career has been about much more than singing. I haven't kept up with how Madonna is as a person, but, evidently, it is important to some.

midnightmover said:

Last time, I heard Amy on some tv show and she sounded terrible. I think she has talent but obviously her druge use impinges on her ability to sound good live. I've been to many Madonna concerts and she sounds just fine, very similar to her records.
The fact that you don't like Amy shows you will stop at nothing to hate on Madonna. She said you agreed with the article but now you don't like Amy's voice. How hypocritical is that!!

jbchavez said:

Id definitely agree so, but im sure there are people who think not - again its a matter of opinion.

Glindathegood said:

Madonna may not be a great singer, but she's not terrible either. It's not true at all she can't sing. Her career is about more than singing, but most of her fans do enjoy how she sounds.

purplesweat said:

She's not criticizing her for turning 50. And what do you mean "all this criticism"? There's hardly any real criticism. Madonna's had the media pussy-whipped for years.

Glindathegood said:

You obviously don't know how to read. I said at the start of this thread that Burchill exaggerated the whole Winehouse thing. You also need to understand that there is a difference between liking or disliking something and taking an objective view of it. Winehouse's voice is not always my cup of tea, but the fact is she can sing. Whether I love it or not, she can sing, and she is a breath of fresh air after so many non-singers like Madonna and Janet Wackson. That is the point.
[Edited 4/14/08 7:38am]

jbchavez said:

When Madonna first came out people were happy to point out her lack of vocal ability. But once it became clear she was here to stay, all criticism was stifled. It's been twelve years now of pretending the emperor is wearing clothes when he's actually butt-naked.

hellomoto said:

Why? I've never seen the spice girls acheive anything like the same kind of artistic or career peaks Madonna has - certainly not over a 25 year period. No single one of them has ever sat in a dingy New York recording space alone with a single collaborator and turned out a dance pop masterpiece such as Into The Groove.

No single one of them, nor collective, have managed to shift, challenge and alter the boundaries of pop music in the way Madonna has. Both musically and visually her body of work pretty much out does most artists within the pop music field, making the fact that they maybe better singers, better dancers, or sexier than she is, irrelevant.

Regardless of the help she's had along the way, Madonna is the one common denominator in her own career. Considering the consistency of her acheivements - does this not indicate she has talent of some kind?

CrozzaUK said:

I didn't say she didn't have talent. None of what you just said had anything to do with my post. I'm not talking about achievements, I'm talking about talent. Talent in their careers is singing, dancing and performing. And I'm saying Madonna is no more talented in those areas then they are.

They are, though, the only other girl act that reached the same kind of success that madonna did, that kind of 'phenomenom' success, of course for nowhere near as long. but I think they are the only other girl act that can be compared to her.

I just think they are one in the same. I don't understand how anyone can love one and criticise the other. I think the only differnce is the longevity factor. And I definetly don't think Madonnas music is any more 'intellectual' or 'challenging' then theres. They had basically the same message
[Edited 4/14/08 7:56am]

hasn't the writer not heard of frying pans....why would u want to fry an egg on a 'muff' , beit greasy or non-greasy ?????

madonna has always admitted she isnt the best singer in the world....but look at her 'confessions live' dvd and u will see she is a great entertainer.....it is about more than can she hit certain notes like mariah or whitney....can either of them dance and put on such a great show...? no

peppeken said:

Madonna's shows are all about the budget. Take that away and there's nothing there. Her dancing is shit too.

madonna has always had to co-exist with big voiced singers, that is nothing new

aretha was still having hits in the 80's, as were chaka khan, patti labelle and tina turner
whitney debuted and she sure enough has a voice, then come the 90's you had mariah and celine dion who are both power houses

and there are plenty more

hellomoto said:

Why is it limited strictly to those areas. Surely ability to produce music on a consistent basis over 25 years indicates a talent also? Surely an ability to direct and dictate her career exactly as she's chosen indicates talent. The number of artistic choices she's made over the last 25 years aren't just coincidence or good fortune. Its not been a case of keeping us all fooled for the last quarter of a century. She's been the one pulling the strings and the strings have been right. She could easily have pulled the wrong ones - as she has occasionally.

As for comparing the intellectual merits of both - im not saying there is incredible depth or insight in madonna's work (particularly her post Ray of light stuff), but to say it's never exceeded that of the spice girls seems silly - just a brief look over her body of work could prove otherwise. Lyrical depth isnt the only thing either. Madonna's continually pushed for new sounds and directions in her music. the spice girls never did this.

midnightmover said:

but in the beginning there was no budget and she still managed to appeal? Again your opinion. It must hurt to see someone you so despise, loved by so many.

What's with all of the Haterade going back and forth about Madonna? It's one thing to be a fan of Madge, Mimi, Damita Jo, Nippy, et al, but it doesn't mean that you have to have an "us vs. them" mentality about all other artists. I personally love Mariah Carey and get excited when she has new music coming out, but I like Madonna's music too. And just because Madonna doesn't have the vocal abilities of Whitney, Mariah, or Christina, and can't play instruments like Alicia Keys or Tori Amos doesn't mean that she isn't talented. Sure, her vocal skills may be limited, and she can't dance well enough to be a star on Broadway or in the Joffrey Ballet or Alvin Alley troupe, but what other artist has done such an extraordinary job of maximizing her "limited" talents to become such a huge pop icon? She may be pompous at times, but she never fails to deliver less than her full effort at entertaining people.

CrozzaUK said:

Her initial success was down to videos rather than live shows. She was one of the first video stars.

midnightmover said:

_____


shut up Mariah and lose some weight !

peppeken said:

728huey said:

I personally would rather not have to deal with Madonna fans. This thread was not made for Madonna fans. It's made for other people who feel the same as I do. Unfortunately, this forum is overrun with hardcore fans who swarm around anything Madge related like flies around shit. Believe me, I would much rather they stayed away, but unfortunately, that'll never happen.

midnightmover said:

I wouldnt disagree but her performances were still entertaining. They have been throughout her career.

CrozzaUK said:

For the last 15 years I've found them more cringe-inducing than entertaining. The Drowned World Tour was one big snoozefest and her dancing has become extremely stiff.
[Edited 4/15/08 11:06am]

midnightmover said:

---

asshole