Rodya24 said:

Will You Be There, Black Or White, They Don't Care About Us, Stranger In Moscow are the only ones I know of that he did ALONE. Let's see the first one is shit, the second one is pretty good, third one not bad, fourth one EXCELLENT! He didn't write and produce any of his signature songs on his own (BOW is the exception). Nothing from the 80's did he pen and produce on his own and let's face it, most of the general public is in love with 80's Michael but probably couldn't recite a verse from many of his songs past 1991. Michael is what some would call a natural born performer and musican, in the game since he was 9 years old and it took him THAT long to finally do a song on his own. I'm not discrediting him, I think he's brilliant. Unlike many music snobs I don't think the best music is neccesarily produced by one person...two heads can be better than one in the studio many times. You can't tell me Micahel's BEST work was the stuff he did alone...you are lying if you do. I will say this, Quincy, Rodney etc were all established hitmakers producing many well known hits for other artists. Most of Madonna's bigger hits were with her and relatively unknown producers, yet they couldn't duplicate their success that they had with her. Why do you think that is? Every producer she has worked with (unknown or not) has cited her ability to pull melodies and hooks out of nowhere and turn them into catchy pop songs. Are Nile, Pat, Steve, William, Stuart, Mirwais all lying? Is that what you are telling me?

Tuls101 said:

But be honest if Madonna was a black woman and she behave in exactly the same way, with such limited talent most people would have dismiss her from time. The fact is being a white "innovator" artist whether it's Elvis, Madonna or even the Osmonds gets you a free pass.

But be honest if Madonna was a black woman and she behave in exactly the same way, with such limited talent most people would have dismiss her from time. The fact is being a white "innovator" artist whether it's Elvis, Madonna or even the Osmonds gets you a free pass.

whatsgoingon said:

Agreed.
lol.....name a Black woman with that lil talent that's been around as long as Madonna. I don't think u can do it.....cause they don't exist.

Graycap23 said:

Janet Jackson. But in demonstration of social racism, she commits one mistake, and she is out of the picture.

Rodya24 said:

Janet's problem was she tried to pass it off as something it wasn't and the public saw through it.

like Kylie said in her behind the scenes of the Fever Tour, you can't lie to the public they can see right through it.

When Madonna fucked up in the eye of the public with Sex,Erotica, Body of Evidence era and American Life she just said yeah i did so what. Had Madonna tried to make an excuse for her actions a la wardrobe malfunction the public would have had her head on a stake.

Janet though she was above having to answer to the public.

ehuffnsd said:

Are you white? Because if you cannot see the ageist, racist, and sexist context within which the incident occurred....

Do people of color have as many options as white people?

BTW, I think the Superbowl stunt was stupid and pointless. But did it warrant the outcry? No.
[Edited 2/11/08 12:32pm]

Graycap23 said:

Janet Jackson. But in demonstration of social racism, she commits one mistake, and she is out of the picture.

Rodya24 said:

Janet's problem was she tried to pass it off as something it wasn't and the public saw through it.

like Kylie said in her behind the scenes of the Fever Tour, you can't lie to the public they can see right through it.

When Madonna fucked up in the eye of the public with Sex,Erotica, Body of Evidence era and American Life she just said yeah i did so what. Had Madonna tried to make an excuse for her actions a la wardrobe malfunction the public would have had her head on a stake.

Janet though she was above having to answer to the public.

Rodya24 said:

Will You Be There, Black Or White, They Don't Care About Us, Stranger In Moscow are the only ones I know of that he did ALONE. Let's see the first one is shit, the second one is pretty good, third one not bad, fourth one EXCELLENT! He didn't write and produce any of his signature songs on his own (BOW is the exception). Nothing from the 80's did he pen and produce on his own and let's face it, most of the general public is in love with 80's Michael but probably couldn't recite a verse from many of his songs past 1991. Michael is what some would call a natural born performer and musican, in the game since he was 9 years old and it took him THAT long to finally do a song on his own. I'm not discrediting him, I think he's brilliant. Unlike many music snobs I don't think the best music is neccesarily produced by one person...two heads can be better than one in the studio many times. You can't tell me Micahel's BEST work was the stuff he did alone...you are lying if you do. I will say this, Quincy, Rodney etc were all established hitmakers producing many well known hits for other artists. Most of Madonna's bigger hits were with her and relatively unknown producers, yet they couldn't duplicate their success that they had with her. Why do you think that is? Every producer she has worked with (unknown or not) has cited her ability to pull melodies and hooks out of nowhere and turn them into catchy pop songs. Are Nile, Pat, Steve, William, Stuart, Mirwais all lying? Is that what you are telling me?

Rodya24 said:

i agree with you on the outcry.

but there are major differences outside of the color of the women's skin.

the Superbowl was a free public event on broadcast television

Sex was a $50 coffee table book.


and the lie didn't help Janet's case any.

Janet miscalculated. end of story.


unless Madonna has without my knowledge shown her breast on public broadcast television during primetime there really is no comparrison.
[Edited 2/11/08 12:41pm]

ehuffnsd said:

I honestly believe that even if Janet had responded the same way that Madonna did, it wouldn't have mattered. The media was ready to tar and feather her. Janet was doomed regardless as to whether or not she had a word to say about it.

Someone mentioned the media "backlash" against Madonna in 1993 over the Sex book and everything with her at the time. The media wasn't half as hard on Madonna as they were to Janet. If that was the case, why was Madonna still able to have her videos on MTV at that time? I remember watching the news with her and she was getting praise in the midst of the criticism. Janet. while I agree she was wrong in how the whole thing played out, didn't have the same kind of support Madonna had so I think the double standard really does come into effect.

ehuffnsd said:

I agree.

And let me add that the lie is what kept that story running. It's the reason people have still not forgiven her. Most people are not that stupid and don't like having their common sense insulted.
[Edited 2/11/08 12:48pm]

Tuls101 said:

Calm down. I should have been much more specific.

Did Madonna write and produce LUCKY STAR on her own? I am not sure, since I do not have the album and cannot read the linear notes. I know she is the sole songwriter but producer?

As for Michael Jackson, he is the sole songwriter, if not producer, of a number of his best songs.

What about Madonna? If she works with other producers like Michael Jackson, does she write songs on her own? The answer is no.

And btw, you need to check the linear notes for Michael Jackson albums again. Your facts are wrong. For example, he produced Black or White with someone else. But he wrote and produced a number of his 1990s songs alone.
[Edited 2/11/08 12:16pm]
[Edited 2/11/08 12:16pm]

Rodya24 said:

He solely wrote and produced NONE of his signature hits. He hasn't even had a signature hit since 1995 with You Are Not Alone and that was all R. Kelly if I'm not mistaken. Madonna did not produce Lucky Star and again I'll ask if Madonna is such a terrible musician how come the quality/success of her work can't be duplicated when her producers work with other artists? You seem to want to conveniently ignore that Nile, Steve, Pat, Shep, Babyface, William, Mirwais and Stuart have ALL have stated that her musical prowess is underrated. Again, I have to ask are they all wrong? Are you telling me they are all liars? It has been said many times over the years that she many times comes in and hums a melody and they work it out on the instruments. She keeps journals that she brings into the studio and many times what is in her journals end up being turned into catchy pop songs.
[Edited 2/11/08 12:56pm]

Madonna practically built her career on that Superbowl stunt.

The fact that the government is involved in Janet's nipple stunt says a lot.

Madonna practically built her career on that Superbowl stunt.

The fact that the government is involved in Janet's nipple stunt says a lot.

midnightmover said:

But I think she is trapped. Will CBS and MTV let her tell the truth? There are still congressional hearings (yes, I know, ridiculous) on the Superbowl incident. Both CBS and MTV and everyone involved has to pretend that it was an accident.

Calm down. I should have been much more specific.

Did Madonna write and produce LUCKY STAR on her own? I am not sure, since I do not have the album and cannot read the linear notes. I know she is the sole songwriter but producer?

As for Michael Jackson, he is the sole songwriter, if not producer, of a number of his best songs.

What about Madonna? If she works with other producers like Michael Jackson, does she write songs on her own? The answer is no.

And btw, you need to check the linear notes for Michael Jackson albums again. Your facts are wrong. For example, he produced Black or White with someone else. But he wrote and produced a number of his 1990s songs alone.
[Edited 2/11/08 12:16pm]
[Edited 2/11/08 12:16pm]

Dance said:

Accidentally or not, Madonna never showed tit on one of the 4 major networks during the highest watched program of the year. Even she had boundaries at her wildest.

Without her music, Madonna wouldn't have had a career. Are you telling me that had Madonna never done the music she's done but done the same movies she's done over the years and had the same public personality that she would still be around today?

Tuls101 said:

Are you saying that Nile Rodgers and Babyface have not produced quality work with other artists?

If she has such amazing musical prowess, like I said, I would love for her to work alone.

Tuls101 said:

You need to calm down.

The person who started this thread -- midnightmover -- is a fan of some of her 1980s music. So am I. I think she was one of the greatest singles artist of the 1980s.

But I disagree with your assessment of her musical prowess.

I also suggest you read the article posted on the third page. Dance provided a link.

Rodya24 said:

I'm not saying that at all. I'm primarily speaking of the more unknown (until she worked with them anyways) producers such as Pat, William and Stuart who have since went on to work with others but the results aren't anywhere near what they were with her. For the third time...why do you think that is?? I'm just saying each and every one of them has said that she's underrated as a musician and that she's really easy to work with because she comes prepared with her own ideas and direction. And once again...are you suggesting that all of these producers over the years that have had praise for her are all liars? They are making things up?

Rodya24 said:

Exactly. There is a reason why Michael is in the songwriters hall of fame and Madonna isn't and never will be.

Anyway, I have to agree with those who said that Janet was treated unfairly as a result of the Superbowl incident. If that had been say Madonna and Usher up there, they would have no doubt made Madonna seem like the innocent victim.

Rodya24 said:

I'm speechless. With all that's going on in the world, the Senate is still investigating a pierced nipple. As for Janet, I think she has nothing to lose at this point. She should just 'fess up and let the chips fall where they will. Anything's better than keeping up this ridiculous charade.

midnightmover said:

I agree. Her fanbase supports her. If others have not moved on from the Superbowl incident, they are the ones with the problem. She should just tell the truth. I hope she finds the courage to do so.

But be honest if Madonna was a black woman and she behave in exactly the same way, with such limited talent most people would have dismiss her from time. The fact is being a white "innovator" artist whether it's Elvis, Madonna or even the Osmonds gets you a free pass.

whatsgoingon said:

I am actually a fan of Madonna's music, but that is the truth. Look at someone like Amy Winehouse for example. I like Amy and her music but if i'm being honest, I think if Amy was black they wouldn't be so quick to give her a second chance and I could not imagine the Grammy's letting a black singer whose drug habits were so well known perform.

The thing that's funny to me though is that when Madonna does something outrageous it's because "she's pushing the envelope and empowering women", but if Janet or any black woman had done the things Madonna has done in her career (i.e. Sex book) they would be labeled as a whore and that's it. They definitely would not have been given the the respect and praise Madonna is given by the Media and others.
[Edited 2/11/08 13:19pm]