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Thread started 01/08/08 4:40pm

PFunkjazz

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The Death of High Fidelity

The Death of High Fidelity

In the age of MP3s, sound quality is worse than ever ROBERT LEVINE



David Bendeth, a producer who works with rock bands like Hawthorne Heights and Paramore, knows that the albums he makes are often played through tiny computer speakers by fans who are busy surfing the Internet. So he's not surprised when record labels ask the mastering engineers who work on his CDs to crank up the sound levels so high that even the soft parts sound loud.



Over the past decade and a half, a revolution in recording technology has changed the way albums are produced, mixed and mastered _ almost always for the worse. "They make it loud to get [listeners'] attention," Bendeth says. Engineers do that by applying dynamic range compression, which reduces the difference between the loudest and softest sounds in a song. Like many of his peers, Bendeth believes that relying too much on this effect can obscure sonic detail, rob music of its emotional power and leave listeners with what engineers call ear fatigue. "I think most everything is mastered a little too loud,"

Bendeth says. "The industry decided that it's a volume contest."



Producers and engineers call this "the loudness war,"

and it has changed the way almost every new pop and rock album sounds. But volume isn't the only issue.

Computer programs like Pro Tools, which let audio engineers manipulate sound the way a word processor edits text, make musicians sound unnaturally perfect.

And today's listeners consume an increasing amount of music on MP3, which eliminates much of the data from the original CD file and can leave music sounding tinny or hollow. "With all the technical innovation, music sounds worse," says Steely Dan's Donald Fagen, who has made what are considered some of the best-sounding records of all time. "God is in the details. But there are no details anymore."



The idea that engineers make albums louder might seem

strange: Isn't volume controlled by that knob on the stereo? Yes, but every setting on that dial delivers a range of loudness, from a hushed vocal to a kick drum _ and pushing sounds toward the top of that range makes music seem louder. It's the same technique used to make television commercials stand out from shows.

And it does grab listeners' attention _ but at a price. Last year, Bob Dylan told Rolling Stone that modern albums "have sound all over them. There's no definition of nothing, no vocal, no nothing, just like _ static."



In 2004, Jeff Buckley's mom, Mary Guibert, listened to the original three-quarter-inch tape of her son's recordings as she was preparing the tenth-anniversary reissue of Grace. "We were hearing instruments you've never heard on that album, like finger cymbals and the sound of viola strings being plucked," she remembers.

"It blew me away because it was exactly what he heard in the studio."



To Guibert's disappointment, the remastered 2004 version failed to capture these details. So last year, when Guibert assembled the best-of collection So Real:

Songs From Jeff Buckley, she insisted on an independent A&R consultant to oversee the reissue process and a mastering engineer who would reproduce the sound Buckley made in the studio. "You can hear the distinct instruments and the sound of the room,"

she says of the new release. "Compression smudges things together."



Too much compression can be heard as musical clutter; on the Arctic Monkeys' debut, the band never seems to pause to catch its breath. By maintaining constant intensity, the album flattens out the emotional peaks that usually stand out in a song. "You lose the power of the chorus, because it's not louder than the verses," Bendeth says. "You lose emotion."



The inner ear automatically compresses blasts of high volume to protect itself, so we associate compression with loudness, says Daniel Levitin, a professor of music and neuroscience at McGill University and author of This Is Your Brain on Music: The Science of a Human Obsession. Human brains have evolved to pay particular attention to loud noises, so compressed sounds initially seem more exciting. But the effect doesn't last. "The excitement in music comes from variation in rhythm, timbre, pitch and loudness," Levitin says. "If you hold one of those constant, it can seem monotonous." After a few minutes, research shows, constant loudness grows fatiguing to the brain. Though few listeners realize this consciously, many feel an urge to skip to another song.



"If you limit range, it's just an assault on the body," says Tom Coyne, a mastering engineer who has worked with Mary J. Blige and Nas. "When you're fifteen, it's the greatest thing _ you're being hammered. But do you want that on a whole album?"



To an average listener, a wide dynamic range creates a sense of spaciousness and makes it easier to pick out individual instruments _ as you can hear on recent albums such as Dylan's Modern Times and Norah Jones'

Not Too Late. "When people have the courage and the vision to do a record that way, it sets them apart,"

says Joe Boyd, who produced albums by Richard Thompson and R.E.M.'s Fables of the Reconstruction. "It sounds warm, it sounds three-dimensional, it sounds different. Analog sound to me is more emotionally affecting."



Rock and pop producers have always used compression to balance the sounds of different instruments and to make music sound more exciting, and radio stations apply compression for technical reasons. In the days of vinyl rec- ords, there was a physical limit to how high the bass levels could go before the needle skipped a groove. CDs can handle higher levels of loudness, although they, too, have a limit that engineers call "digital zero dB," above which sounds begin to distort. Pop albums rarely got close to the zero-dB mark until the mid-1990s, when digital compressors and limiters, which cut off the peaks of sound waves, made it easier to manipulate loudness levels. Intensely compressed albums like Oasis' 1995 (What's the Story) Morning Glory? set a new bar for loudness; the songs were well-suited for bars, cars and other noisy environments. "In the Seventies and Eighties, you were expected to pay attention," says Matt Serletic, the former chief executive of Virgin Records USA, who also produced albums by Matchbox Twenty and Collective Soul. "Modern music should be able to get your attention." Adds Rob Cavallo, who produced Green Day's American Idiot and My Chemical Romance's The Black Parade, "It's a style that started post-grunge, to get that intensity. The idea was to slam someone's face against the wall. You can set your CD to stun."

It's not just new music that's too loud. Many remastered recordings suffer the same problem as engineers apply compression to bring them into line with modern tastes. The new Led Zeppelin collection, Mothership, is louder than the band's original albums, and Bendeth, who mixed Elvis Presley's 30 #1 Hits, says that the album was mastered too loud for his taste. "A lot of audiophiles hate that record," he says, "but people can play it in the car and it's competitive with the new Foo Fighters record."



Just as cds supplanted vinyl and cassettes, MP3 and other digital-music formats are quickly replacing CDs as the most popular way to listen to music. That means more conven- ience but worse sound. To create an MP3, a computer samples the music on a CD and compresses it into a smaller file by excluding the musical information that the human ear is less likely to notice. Much of the information left out is at the very high and low ends, which is why some MP3s sound flat. Cavallo says that MP3s don't reproduce reverb well, and the lack of high-end detail makes them sound brittle. Without enough low end, he says, "you don't get the punch anymore. It decreases the punch of the kick drum and how the speaker gets pushed when the guitarist plays a power chord."



But not all digital-music files are created equal.

Levitin says that most people find MP3s ripped at a rate above 224 kbps virtually indistinguishable from CDs. (iTunes sells music as either 128 or 256 kbps AAC files _ AAC is slightly superior to MP3 at an equivalent bit rate. Amazon sells MP3s at 256 kbps.) Still, "it's like going to the Louvre and instead of the Mona Lisa there's a 10-megapixel image of it," he says. "I always want to listen to music the way the artists wanted me to hear it. I wouldn't look at a Kandinsky painting with sunglasses on."



Producers also now alter the way they mix albums to compensate for the limitations of MP3 sound. "You have to be aware of how people will hear music, and pretty much everyone is listening to MP3," says producer Butch Vig, a member of Garbage and the producer of Nirvana's Never- mind. "Some of the effects get lost.

So you sometimes have to over-exaggerate things."

Other producers believe that intensely compressed CDs make for better MP3s, since the loudness of the music will compensate for the flatness of the digital format.



As technological shifts have changed the way sounds are recorded, they have encouraged an artificial perfection in music itself. Analog tape has been replaced in most studios by Pro Tools, making edits that once required splicing tape together easily done with the click of a mouse. Programs like Auto-Tune can make weak singers sound pitch-perfect, and Beat Detective does the same thing for wobbly drummers.



"You can make anyone sound professional," says Mitchell Froom, a producer who's worked with Elvis Costello and Los Lobos, among others. "But the problem is that you have something that's professional, but it's not distinctive. I was talking to a session drummer, and I said, 'When's the last time you could tell who the drummer is?' You can tell Keith Moon or John Bonham, but now they all sound the same."



So is music doomed to keep sounding worse? Awareness of the problem is growing. The South by Southwest music festival recently featured a panel titled "Why Does Today's Music Sound Like Shit?" In August, a group of producers and engineers founded an organization called Turn Me Up!, which proposes to put stickers on CDs that meet high sonic standards.



But even most CD listeners have lost interest in high-end stereos as surround-sound home theater systems have become more popular, and superior-quality disc formats like DVD-Audio and SACD flopped. Bendeth and other producers worry that young listeners have grown so used to dynamically compressed music and the thin sound of MP3s that the battle has already been lost. "CDs sound better, but no one's buying them," he says. "The age of the audiophile is over."


http://www.rollingstone.c...h_fidelity
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Reply #1 posted 01/08/08 4:58pm

horatio

I love my vinyl biggrin
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Reply #2 posted 01/08/08 7:14pm

WildheartXXX

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It's a great post. There was an orger on this forum the other week who said that all his album purchases of 2007 had been digital and it truly is the saddest thing ever. Music is now invisible too. I was listening to Johnny Cash's Live At San Quentin the other day on vinyl and it truly is another experience altogether. It was like i was there and yet again it really brought home to me how much better sounding(in most respects)vinyl is. This ain't nostalgia for a format that was once dominant, it's the truth.
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Reply #3 posted 01/08/08 7:29pm

Wonderwall

I have been beefing up my vinyl collection lately because I agree its the BEST sounding of all formats. There is no question about it. The "punch" that this author talks about comes out of the speakers the best from vinyl.

Just listen to Sign o the Times on CD...a known crappy sound quality CD...then drop down the record. Its like 2 seperate recordings...its THAT noticable.
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Reply #4 posted 01/08/08 7:37pm

WildheartXXX

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Wonderwall said:

I have been beefing up my vinyl collection lately because I agree its the BEST sounding of all formats. There is no question about it. The "punch" that this author talks about comes out of the speakers the best from vinyl.

Just listen to Sign o the Times on CD...a known crappy sound quality CD...then drop down the record. Its like 2 seperate recordings...its THAT noticable.


It's funny you mentioned the SOTT album. I bought it on vinyl when it first came out and then 'upgraded' to CD in 1990. I sold the CD to my cousin 2 months later, the reason? It wasn't loud enough. Even the copy i made to cassette from the vinyl sounded better.
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Reply #5 posted 01/08/08 9:16pm

lastdecember

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Exactly, the better "technology" has gotten the worse things have gotten, Digital has made music invisible, and it has become nothing but a VOLUME contest with producers and engineers to a point where on alot of releases there is distortion heard on tracks, trust me listen to some new stuff with headphones on, and you will hear bad bad recording, producing and engineering.

"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #6 posted 01/08/08 10:16pm

savoirfaire

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lastdecember said:

Exactly, the better "technology" has gotten the worse things have gotten, Digital has made music invisible, and it has become nothing but a VOLUME contest with producers and engineers to a point where on alot of releases there is distortion heard on tracks, trust me listen to some new stuff with headphones on, and you will hear bad bad recording, producing and engineering.


Vinyl has an earthy quality to it, but that's not to say CDs can't sound as good as or better, if they are mastered correctly...

With that said, many are mastered poorly, and MP3s are incomparable, only benefit of them is their portability.

As a younger guy, many friends can't understand why I invest money in my music instead of just downloading it. I think it's sad that many of them have never taken the time to appreciate a quality recording.
"Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring faith. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal" - Carl Sagan
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Reply #7 posted 01/09/08 11:09am

PFunkjazz

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CDs are acceptable, but downloading compressed MP3s is horrifying.
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Reply #8 posted 01/09/08 11:13am

Graycap23

This is why I still buy cd's. I can't stand compression ala Mp3's.
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Reply #9 posted 01/09/08 11:27am

lastdecember

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savoirfaire said:

lastdecember said:

Exactly, the better "technology" has gotten the worse things have gotten, Digital has made music invisible, and it has become nothing but a VOLUME contest with producers and engineers to a point where on alot of releases there is distortion heard on tracks, trust me listen to some new stuff with headphones on, and you will hear bad bad recording, producing and engineering.


Vinyl has an earthy quality to it, but that's not to say CDs can't sound as good as or better, if they are mastered correctly...

With that said, many are mastered poorly, and MP3s are incomparable, only benefit of them is their portability.

As a younger guy, many friends can't understand why I invest money in my music instead of just downloading it. I think it's sad that many of them have never taken the time to appreciate a quality recording.


Yeah i agree its not all cds by far, but it is alot of things digital, especially mp3 files. Some of the better sounding cds are from artists when they get remastered, about a decade ago Billy Joels cds were all remastered mainly because when they were first released they sounded worse than Prince's Sign o the times cd quality, and it was 100% improvement over the first pressing of his cds.

"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #10 posted 01/09/08 11:32am

NDRU

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WildheartXXX said:

Wonderwall said:

I have been beefing up my vinyl collection lately because I agree its the BEST sounding of all formats. There is no question about it. The "punch" that this author talks about comes out of the speakers the best from vinyl.

Just listen to Sign o the Times on CD...a known crappy sound quality CD...then drop down the record. Its like 2 seperate recordings...its THAT noticable.


It's funny you mentioned the SOTT album. I bought it on vinyl when it first came out and then 'upgraded' to CD in 1990. I sold the CD to my cousin 2 months later, the reason? It wasn't loud enough. Even the copy i made to cassette from the vinyl sounded better.


I know what you mean, but I actually prefer that quiet cd sound to the noisy modern cd's. At least I can turn Sign o the Times up and actually hear the music. Some of Prince's last cd's are so noisy, they actually sound distorted.
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Reply #11 posted 01/09/08 4:24pm

thesexofit

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Little surprise about Oasis in that article, but that album sounded so fresh and full at the time, so I respect Oasis for trying something different back then.

There has been compression going on since the 50's though. The monkeys 45's also used deliberate compression so it could be louder.


Maybe on digital remasters they should just put "digitally compresssed" LOL,
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Reply #12 posted 01/09/08 4:33pm

Yelsiap

Sad but true, being an ipod owner for quite some time now, I have been used to the "compressed sound" of mp3 files playing on it, having on hand one of those discman units I put in Prince's Parade CD and I was so impressed on hearing the quality of the sound (ok so it needs some remastering!), that I was blown away, making me aware of what my ears (and therefore my brain hehe) had been missing!

I am afraid ofthe day that CDs as a distributable media for music disappears... sad
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Reply #13 posted 01/09/08 4:39pm

horatio

Yelsiap said:

Sad but true, being an ipod owner for quite some time now, I have been used to the "compressed sound" of mp3 files playing on it, having on hand one of those discman units I put in Prince's Parade CD and I was so impressed on hearing the quality of the sound (ok so it needs some remastering!), that I was blown away, making me aware of what my ears (and therefore my brain hehe) had been missing!

I am afraid ofthe day that CDs as a distributable media for music disappears... sad



So when you rip songs from a cd it mcompresses them too? Or just the MP3 downloads from the web are compressed?
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Reply #14 posted 01/09/08 4:41pm

lastdecember

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NDRU said:

WildheartXXX said:



It's funny you mentioned the SOTT album. I bought it on vinyl when it first came out and then 'upgraded' to CD in 1990. I sold the CD to my cousin 2 months later, the reason? It wasn't loud enough. Even the copy i made to cassette from the vinyl sounded better.


I know what you mean, but I actually prefer that quiet cd sound to the noisy modern cd's. At least I can turn Sign o the Times up and actually hear the music. Some of Prince's last cd's are so noisy, they actually sound distorted.


Very true, and if i remember right he has been using the same engineer on the last 3? But there is distortion on both the Musicology cds and 3121, that with headphones are very clearly heard.

"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #15 posted 01/09/08 4:45pm

thesexofit

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lastdecember said:

NDRU said:



I know what you mean, but I actually prefer that quiet cd sound to the noisy modern cd's. At least I can turn Sign o the Times up and actually hear the music. Some of Prince's last cd's are so noisy, they actually sound distorted.


Very true, and if i remember right he has been using the same engineer on the last 3? But there is distortion on both the Musicology cds and 3121, that with headphones are very clearly heard.


Remember Femi Jiya? Shes an amazing engineer. Worked on the mixing and engenieering off a couple of bee gees albums, and they sound amazing (gotta give the bee gees alot of credit, as they produce and even help mixing aswell)

Only other mixer/engineer I look out for is Humberto Gattica. Amazing synthy/synclavier sound on the stuff he touches. Even noticed him off Jacko's "invincible".
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Reply #16 posted 01/09/08 4:46pm

NDRU

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Yelsiap said:

Sad but true, being an ipod owner for quite some time now, I have been used to the "compressed sound" of mp3 files playing on it, having on hand one of those discman units I put in Prince's Parade CD and I was so impressed on hearing the quality of the sound (ok so it needs some remastering!), that I was blown away, making me aware of what my ears (and therefore my brain hehe) had been missing!

I am afraid ofthe day that CDs as a distributable media for music disappears... sad


Hopefully, improvements in downloading & disc storage will make larger file downloads more common. I think MP3's don't have to sound worse than cd's, they just do in order to save space.
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Reply #17 posted 01/09/08 4:51pm

lastdecember

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thesexofit said:

lastdecember said:



Very true, and if i remember right he has been using the same engineer on the last 3? But there is distortion on both the Musicology cds and 3121, that with headphones are very clearly heard.


Remember Femi Jiya? Shes an amazing engineer. Worked on the mixing and engenieering off a couple of bee gees albums, and they sound amazing (gotta give the bee gees alot of credit, as they produce and even help mixing aswell)

Only other mixer/engineer I look out for is Humberto Gattica. Amazing synthy/synclavier sound on the stuff he touches. Even noticed him off Jacko's "invincible".


Yes i do remember, the Bee Gees have always had good sound and production, and yes Humberto did work with Chicago, if i remember correctly? not the show, the group.

"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #18 posted 01/09/08 4:56pm

PFunkjazz

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horatio said:

Yelsiap said:

Sad but true, being an ipod owner for quite some time now, I have been used to the "compressed sound" of mp3 files playing on it, having on hand one of those discman units I put in Prince's Parade CD and I was so impressed on hearing the quality of the sound (ok so it needs some remastering!), that I was blown away, making me aware of what my ears (and therefore my brain hehe) had been missing!

I am afraid ofthe day that CDs as a distributable media for music disappears... sad



So when you rip songs from a cd it mcompresses them too? Or just the MP3 downloads from the web are compressed?


Correct, however this can be avoided by storing into a lossless format like FLAC or SHN and downloaded from torrent databases.
test
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Reply #19 posted 01/09/08 5:04pm

thesexofit

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lastdecember said:

thesexofit said:



Remember Femi Jiya? Shes an amazing engineer. Worked on the mixing and engenieering off a couple of bee gees albums, and they sound amazing (gotta give the bee gees alot of credit, as they produce and even help mixing aswell)

Only other mixer/engineer I look out for is Humberto Gattica. Amazing synthy/synclavier sound on the stuff he touches. Even noticed him off Jacko's "invincible".


Yes i do remember, the Bee Gees have always had good sound and production, and yes Humberto did work with Chicago, if i remember correctly? not the show, the group.



I mentioned Femi because she also did some work with Prince in the 80's. Yeah, Humberto was David Fosters "wingman" LOL. As Iam a huge fan of Foster, I got to give credit for the mixing etc... to Humberto. "Chicago 18" is one of my all time fav albums, and I love the sound of that album.

Humberto produced from time to time aswell. One of my fav Richard marx songs, "endless summer nights" was produced by him.


I guess his "twinkly" synth sound is best exampled on Roxettes "it must of been love". Not sure how the original sounded, but he is credited to remixer. I dont usually notice mixers or engineers, but I notice Humberto.
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Reply #20 posted 01/09/08 5:49pm

lastdecember

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thesexofit said:

lastdecember said:



Yes i do remember, the Bee Gees have always had good sound and production, and yes Humberto did work with Chicago, if i remember correctly? not the show, the group.



I mentioned Femi because she also did some work with Prince in the 80's. Yeah, Humberto was David Fosters "wingman" LOL. As Iam a huge fan of Foster, I got to give credit for the mixing etc... to Humberto. "Chicago 18" is one of my all time fav albums, and I love the sound of that album.

Humberto produced from time to time aswell. One of my fav Richard marx songs, "endless summer nights" was produced by him.


I guess his "twinkly" synth sound is best exampled on Roxettes "it must of been love". Not sure how the original sounded, but he is credited to remixer. I dont usually notice mixers or engineers, but I notice Humberto.


Yes very rue, Chicago 18 was a great record, i was thinking about it the other day when i was going through vinyl and its one of their records that i dont have on cd, and also Jason Scheff's debut with Chicago. I forgot he did the Richard Marx song too, thanks for reminding me of that

"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #21 posted 01/09/08 6:00pm

thesexofit

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lastdecember said:

thesexofit said:




I mentioned Femi because she also did some work with Prince in the 80's. Yeah, Humberto was David Fosters "wingman" LOL. As Iam a huge fan of Foster, I got to give credit for the mixing etc... to Humberto. "Chicago 18" is one of my all time fav albums, and I love the sound of that album.

Humberto produced from time to time aswell. One of my fav Richard marx songs, "endless summer nights" was produced by him.


I guess his "twinkly" synth sound is best exampled on Roxettes "it must of been love". Not sure how the original sounded, but he is credited to remixer. I dont usually notice mixers or engineers, but I notice Humberto.


Yes very rue, Chicago 18 was a great record, i was thinking about it the other day when i was going through vinyl and its one of their records that i dont have on cd, and also Jason Scheff's debut with Chicago. I forgot he did the Richard Marx song too, thanks for reminding me of that


Thats OK. He produced a couple of songs off Chicago 21 aswell, and bizarrely, produced pretty much all of David Fosters "river of love" album.


I loved that mid 80's-late 80's AOR/MOR sound. Loved the few cuts he did for Julio Iglesias' english album "Non stop" aswell. (u may remember "my love" with Stevie wonder, Gattica produced it with Stevie)



Not a great album, but its good MOR, and of course, Gatica is producing, along with another MOR god Robbie Buchanan.
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Reply #22 posted 01/09/08 6:34pm

lastdecember

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thesexofit said:

lastdecember said:



Yes very rue, Chicago 18 was a great record, i was thinking about it the other day when i was going through vinyl and its one of their records that i dont have on cd, and also Jason Scheff's debut with Chicago. I forgot he did the Richard Marx song too, thanks for reminding me of that


Thats OK. He produced a couple of songs off Chicago 21 aswell, and bizarrely, produced pretty much all of David Fosters "river of love" album.


I loved that mid 80's-late 80's AOR/MOR sound. Loved the few cuts he did for Julio Iglesias' english album "Non stop" aswell. (u may remember "my love" with Stevie wonder, Gattica produced it with Stevie)



Not a great album, but its good MOR, and of course, Gatica is producing, along with another MOR god Robbie Buchanan.


Yeah i agree that time was one of my favorite times in music, there was alot of great production going on and engineering on albums, and i know that people think sounding "dated" is bad, but i think its great, i love how music fits a certain time, i mean every decade to the 90's pretty much had its defining sounds.

"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #23 posted 01/09/08 6:44pm

thesexofit

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lastdecember said:

thesexofit said:



Thats OK. He produced a couple of songs off Chicago 21 aswell, and bizarrely, produced pretty much all of David Fosters "river of love" album.


I loved that mid 80's-late 80's AOR/MOR sound. Loved the few cuts he did for Julio Iglesias' english album "Non stop" aswell. (u may remember "my love" with Stevie wonder, Gattica produced it with Stevie)



Not a great album, but its good MOR, and of course, Gatica is producing, along with another MOR god Robbie Buchanan.


Yeah i agree that time was one of my favorite times in music, there was alot of great production going on and engineering on albums, and i know that people think sounding "dated" is bad, but i think its great, i love how music fits a certain time, i mean every decade to the 90's pretty much had its defining sounds.



Yep, me too. Infact, my whole record collection is from 1986-1994 basically. Chicago 18 sounds very dated, BUT still sounds dynamic and sonically very good because of the production and mixing. Funny because Chicago 19 sounds alot worse, and Foster wasn't working with Chicago by then. Coincidence?
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Reply #24 posted 01/09/08 6:50pm

lastdecember

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thesexofit said:

lastdecember said:



Yeah i agree that time was one of my favorite times in music, there was alot of great production going on and engineering on albums, and i know that people think sounding "dated" is bad, but i think its great, i love how music fits a certain time, i mean every decade to the 90's pretty much had its defining sounds.



Yep, me too. Infact, my whole record collection is from 1986-1994 basically. Chicago 18 sounds very dated, BUT still sounds dynamic and sonically very good because of the production and mixing. Funny because Chicago 19 sounds alot worse, and Foster wasn't working with Chicago by then. Coincidence?


Very true

"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #25 posted 01/09/08 6:58pm

thesexofit

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lastdecember said:

thesexofit said:




Yep, me too. Infact, my whole record collection is from 1986-1994 basically. Chicago 18 sounds very dated, BUT still sounds dynamic and sonically very good because of the production and mixing. Funny because Chicago 19 sounds alot worse, and Foster wasn't working with Chicago by then. Coincidence?


Very true



Hack Ron Nevison gave tunes like "look away" a horrible, harsh sound (also on enineering duties). Its funny what producers do though, as a year earlier, Nevison was one of the producers behind Jefferson airplanes comeback album, and that sounds a million miles away from Chicago 19. That album sounds really good. Maybe calling him a hack is harsh, but 19 sounds dead sonically, especially the tracks he was involved with.
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Reply #26 posted 01/09/08 7:06pm

lastdecember

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thesexofit said:

lastdecember said:



Very true



Hack Ron Nevison gave tunes like "look away" a horrible, harsh sound (also on enineering duties). Its funny what producers do though, as a year earlier, Nevison was one of the producers behind Jefferson airplanes comeback album, and that sounds a million miles away from Chicago 19. That album sounds really good. Maybe calling him a hack is harsh, but 19 sounds dead sonically, especially the tracks he was involved with.


No i agree with that, sometimes engineers work differently with artists albums which is strange because if anything, engineering should remain the same, production should vary from artist to artist which is why the late Arif Mardin was one of the best, just the fact that he could work with everyone from the Bee Gess to Hall and Oates to Chaka to Norah Jones in his last years, very varied work, with great results always.

"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #27 posted 01/09/08 7:16pm

thesexofit

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lastdecember said:

thesexofit said:




Hack Ron Nevison gave tunes like "look away" a horrible, harsh sound (also on enineering duties). Its funny what producers do though, as a year earlier, Nevison was one of the producers behind Jefferson airplanes comeback album, and that sounds a million miles away from Chicago 19. That album sounds really good. Maybe calling him a hack is harsh, but 19 sounds dead sonically, especially the tracks he was involved with.


No i agree with that, sometimes engineers work differently with artists albums which is strange because if anything, engineering should remain the same, production should vary from artist to artist which is why the late Arif Mardin was one of the best, just the fact that he could work with everyone from the Bee Gess to Hall and Oates to Chaka to Norah Jones in his last years, very varied work, with great results always.


What makes Nevisons work with Chicago surprising is that the followup to "19", 1991's "21" (which bombed by Warners liking), sounds like Jefferson airplanes 1989 album, which remember, was made after his work on "19". Point is, in this case, Nevison learnt from his mistakes. Of course, this is personal preference in my case, but Nevisons skills on "21" are sooooo much better in every way, compared to "19". You gotta remember, rather oddly for a producer, Nevison engineers aswell (ditto with Gatica).

Talking of established producers being varied (you mention arif), I didn't think Quincy Jones got it right for "back on the block". The uptempos sound tinny, and despite using the best session men, keyboard players, drum programmers etc..., put Ray and Chakas "I'll be good to you", next to Bobby Browns "my prerogative", and you can tell Quincy could not fit into the then newjack scene. So even artists with Quincy's stature can fall short, but thats more of a production thing then a mixing/engineering thing.
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Reply #28 posted 01/09/08 7:35pm

lastdecember

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thesexofit said:

lastdecember said:



No i agree with that, sometimes engineers work differently with artists albums which is strange because if anything, engineering should remain the same, production should vary from artist to artist which is why the late Arif Mardin was one of the best, just the fact that he could work with everyone from the Bee Gess to Hall and Oates to Chaka to Norah Jones in his last years, very varied work, with great results always.


What makes Nevisons work with Chicago surprising is that the followup to "19", 1991's "21" (which bombed by Warners liking), sounds like Jefferson airplanes 1989 album, which remember, was made after his work on "19". Point is, in this case, Nevison learnt from his mistakes. Of course, this is personal preference in my case, but Nevisons skills on "21" are sooooo much better in every way, compared to "19". You gotta remember, rather oddly for a producer, Nevison engineers aswell (ditto with Gatica).

Talking of established producers being varied (you mention arif), I didn't think Quincy Jones got it right for "back on the block". The uptempos sound tinny, and despite using the best session men, keyboard players, drum programmers etc..., put Ray and Chakas "I'll be good to you", next to Bobby Browns "my prerogative", and you can tell Quincy could not fit into the then newjack scene. So even artists with Quincy's stature can fall short, but thats more of a production thing then a mixing/engineering thing.


Another favorite of mine during 1992-93 was the work Mark Opitz did with INXS, on the two records "Welcome to Wherever You are" and "Full Moon Dirty Hearts", ironically it was their least commercial work, but spawned changes in direction for other bands like Depeche Mode and mostly U2 who immediately recorded Achtung Baby which was a carbon copy of "Welcome"

"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #29 posted 01/09/08 7:46pm

thesexofit

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lastdecember said:

thesexofit said:



What makes Nevisons work with Chicago surprising is that the followup to "19", 1991's "21" (which bombed by Warners liking), sounds like Jefferson airplanes 1989 album, which remember, was made after his work on "19". Point is, in this case, Nevison learnt from his mistakes. Of course, this is personal preference in my case, but Nevisons skills on "21" are sooooo much better in every way, compared to "19". You gotta remember, rather oddly for a producer, Nevison engineers aswell (ditto with Gatica).

Talking of established producers being varied (you mention arif), I didn't think Quincy Jones got it right for "back on the block". The uptempos sound tinny, and despite using the best session men, keyboard players, drum programmers etc..., put Ray and Chakas "I'll be good to you", next to Bobby Browns "my prerogative", and you can tell Quincy could not fit into the then newjack scene. So even artists with Quincy's stature can fall short, but thats more of a production thing then a mixing/engineering thing.


Another favorite of mine during 1992-93 was the work Mark Opitz did with INXS, on the two records "Welcome to Wherever You are" and "Full Moon Dirty Hearts", ironically it was their least commercial work, but spawned changes in direction for other bands like Depeche Mode and mostly U2 who immediately recorded Achtung Baby which was a carbon copy of "Welcome"


Never could get into INXS, but I should get round to it one day.
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