LittleBLUECorvette said:

mirrorbestfriend said:

Just let me take a toke of whatever you're smoking because I'm jealous that you're the only one high in this thread.

Afronomical said:

prince was rand b back in the day but now he wants the pop life

guitar dont sound rand b to me

Ok, but here's the issue I have with that - "Off The Wall" was basically disco. R&B has had many sounds and disco was one of those sounds, like you said in another thread like New Jack Swing and Neo Soul. Plus, P as a solo artist has had more R&B albums than MJ has had as a solo artist, easily. I can then see putting the J5 on their but not MJ if you're going by solo albums of R&B.

But it all boils down to criteria for everyone, that's why I'd easily have P in the top 10 - Contribution, Longevity, Influence, and Productivity.

Afronomical said:

Even without "Off The Wall" Michael's work with the Jacksons had a huge influence on R&B even to this day. Usher, Chris Brown, Ne-Yo, Mario, Omarion, Donell Jones, etc,, etc. have all based their style around Michael. Prince dominated the mid 80s (between Mike's albums) but R&B has never been based around Prince's work beyond that. The artists I named help make R&B what it is.
Productivity has little to do with it. D'Angelo only has two CDs and has had a huge impact on "neo-soul" or rather the resurgance of soul into contemporary R&B. You wouldn't say that Raheem DeVaughn helped formulate neo-soul because those lines have already been defined since his coming on the scene. Such was the case with R&B and Prince. A few rose to the top and made changes like Luther, who became the blueprint for black male balladeers for quite some time. Prince's strides have been in making alternative hybrids of funk, R&B and rock. For instance, I would never call Prince a soul singer. He is not. Johnny Taylor, Lattimore, Teddy Pendergrass and Al Green are soul singers. Prince has influenced a lot of artists and has contributed a lot of music but that music was not necessarily primarily R&B music. Prince gets his own box. (not nearly as big as James Brown's) He is a hybrid artist. He started out R&B but post Purple Rain, he's been "alternative." He's more funk/rock than R&B but there's no "funk/rock" box and he's black so he got cast as R&B most of the time in the 80s. If he were white, he'd be considered rock but his genre bending and rise to superstar status made him one of the one-named superstars that needs no genre box. Ironically, Lenny is considered rock most of the times, even though he has some soul in his earlier work. Sorry, I'm off topic.
My list stays. Peace.

BlaqueKnight said:

Right, but you stated that you were using MJ's solo career as a criterion for why he made the top 10 and the truth of it is, MJ's solo career has very little to do with R&B, and MUCH MUCH more to do with Pop, while P's solo career has more to do with R&B than MJ's solo career does. Can anyone even name the last R&B album MJ did? "Off The Wall"? "Thriller"? And Thriller, MJ was about headed into Rock/Pop area, especially with 'Beat It'.

Also, if you ask the artists that are the REAL musicians, you will almost ALWAYS hear these main 3 names thrown out there - Stevie, Prince, and JB. Ne-Yo and Usher - Just dancers so that's why they name MJ because he's influenced them "entertainer-wise" as opposed to true artists like D'Angelo, Saadiq, Bilal etc. who list Prince as one of their major influences. Those artist all fall under R&B.

The thing is, if there is no Prince, then there is no Neo Soul since D' patterned himself after Prince. D' and Saadiq - The Godfathers of Neo Soul - always list Prince as their major influence.

Prince delves into many genres but he's known more as R&B, the thing is, once the white public picks you up, all of a sudden you become "crossover" even though you're still doing R&B. Black Sweat was an R&B song. Prince is: R&B/Funk/Jazz/Rock - A hybrid that has to be included in R&B, Funk, and Rock, and in some instances, Jazz, but his impact is more-so on the R&B front than of ANY of those aforementioned genres.

Afronomical said:

Well, we could sure as hell do without Neo Soul. What a lameass genre.

Afronomical said:

Did you not really READ what I said? Look at my list. It said Michael Jackson - Jacksons' era up to "Off The Wall". I don't know how old you are but it would seem to me that you may not have been around in the 70s/early 80s. The genre of R&B was already formed. Michael Jackson influenced a LOT of singers. I just named some of the contemporary ones but without a doubt there are many. Mike became the blueprint for the black male solo artist early on. The FACT that you are trying to dodge is that Michael was already popular, already influencing and already helping to shape R&B when Prince was in Andre's basement. By the time Prince came along, R&B was already a genre. Prince influenced fusion of styles and adding more elements to R&B but R&B itself was already there when Prince came along, hence most of the artists I listed are earlier pioneers. Who's to say if there would be no neo-soul without Prince? It may sound different but it could easily exist since Prince didn't really do soul music. Neo means new. If someone came along and started a new soul movement based off 60/70/80s soul singers, it would be "neo-soul". Prince was NOT part of the soul movement and soul is the basis of R&B just like blues and gospel are. Singers like Anthony Hamilton have little to no Prince influence in their work. Prince influenced a lot of artists but he could be easily excluded from a top 10 R&B list. If you want to be real about it, you could list just pioneers like Etta James and even Little Richard and fill up the first 20 spots bewfore getting to Prince's name. R&B didn't start in the 80s.
Prince's impact was more on R&B because he was marketed that way because he was black and it was the 80s and the industry is racist. Like i said, if he were white, he would have been marketed to the rock crowd post Purple Rain. There were many mainstream listeners that thought Purple Rain was Prince's first album back in the 80s. I'm not trying to deny Prince influence but there was R&B long before Prince.
[Edited 6/4/07 13:02pm]

FuNkeNsteiN said:

Well like it or not, it's here and without P we don't have D'Angelo.

Afronomical said:

Ndeed. And without JB, Sly, Hendrix, Little Richard, The Beatles and many others, we wouldn't have Prince.

BlaqueKnight said:

Bro, chill, I grew up in the 70s and 80s, so I certainly know the genre. No one said R&B "started in the 80s" and this isn't about who "created" the genre, this is about who has helped shaped the genre that is STILL around today.

Again, you bring up MJ but you fail to realize that when MJ was small, he was imitatimg who? James Brown - That was who he was "channeling" in their audition tape for BG. So MJ's influence on "A LOT of singers" as you say was already around by artists like JB and Marvin and Smokey to be influenced by, whom MJ pulled from as well.

That's why you can't say P didn't shape anything because there were already artists before him that shaped R&B but then turn around and say MJ did just that when MJ was influenced GREATLY by JB and then the Motown sound altogether.

But I just don't understand why you want to act like P "really isn't R&B" just because he tends to incorporate other genres. MOST artists from all genres do that, so why ridiculously single P out for doing that? And isn't that what great artists DO anyway? - Fuse genres and create others in the process?

It's like you want to hold the fact that he's a musical genius against him, especially because how the "racists" and "white media" want to categorize him. Fuck the media. They can categorize them all they want but the man's roots are in R&B, without a doubt. He'll even tell you that himself.

Both MJ and P need to be in the top 10. You can't have one without the other because they both shaped R&B, especially in the 80s, even when BOTH artists used Rock and Disco in their R&B sound. Thing is, P is still shaping the music to this day, no matter how many subtle changes it has gone through from the 50s to now.

FuNkeNsteiN said:

Exactly, which goes back to my original point of "Everyone is influenced by someone before them."

Afronomical said:

Yea, that's true. But I consider George Clinton, Sly & JB to be more influental than Prince. I found it odd that you didn't include Sly OR GC in your top 10. I mean those guys sure as hell are influental figures in black music.

Afronomical said:

part of what you are saying is true and part is your own personal opinion. I can have a top 10 greatest R&B artist list without Prince or MJ. You can't. Its opinion. Stop trying to refute mine. I don't see you going at anyone else's choices. Get off my nutsack, dude. You seem to have issues with MJ and see MJ and Prince as same era when in actuality, MJ preceeded Prince and...listen to this closely...PRINCE TOO WAS INFLUENCED BY MICHAEL JACKSON. MJ is not the point. All of the artists I listed are valid and their influence can still be heard today.

FuNkeNsteiN said:

Well, because my list was JUST based off "influential" it was based on other things like "longevity", "productive output", and "relevance" for starters.

Then again, by BK's argument, Sly would be more so considered Rock right? Would you agree with that assessment?

BlaqueKnight said:

Well, isn't that why we're even going at it, bro! - For me to refute your opinion and for you to refute mine? That's the beauty of this stuff! , so it's all good in the end. Both of us are wrong and both of us are right and everyone else will end up with the same finality - No one's right and no one's wrong.

What Afronomical said about Prince is pretty much what I've always reproached to Prince fans. They tend to give him WAY too much credit, and forget everything before.

"P plays several instruments", like if nobody was able to play several instruments before.
"P created his own sound" like if nobody created his own sound before.

Now Afronomical gives P all the credit for the Neo Soul mouvement...

The Neo soul acts are also Stevie Wonder fans, Curtis Mayfield fans, Marvin Gaye fans and Sly Stone fans etc. Neo soul music is very 70's like.


But Afromonical still wants to GIVE all the credit to P and only P.

Afronomical said:

Based on relevance, Sly and George etc, would still rank highly
Anyways, no, I don't consider Sly to be a rock act. He is something of a hybrid, psychedelic rock/pop/funk/soul etc.

krayzie said:

Here this kid is STILL afraid to give us HIS list yet he can talk all day about who SHOULDN'T be on the list. Ya gotta love the background people with opinions.

One day you'll drop that top 10 list right bro? It just won't be in THIS thread that's for sure.

FuNkeNsteiN said:

I can dig that then.

Afronomical said:

I need to come up with mine too. Hmm, I'll try to think about it at work tomorrow and try to come up with something to post

BlaqueKnight said:

I doubt a Prince fan would like to hear that Prince was influence by MJ , but your right, because it has been said again and again that Prince has many influences including the J5 .

FuNkeNsteiN said:

I already know which 2 are DEFINITELY gonna be on your list!

Afronomical said:

Afronomical said:

I wanted to include at least two women in my Top 10 list,so it wouldn't be dominated by males and come on,Chaka and Aretha are as soulful as it gets.

This isn't my finished list...I'm just tossing around names that I would probably place in my Top 10.I considered Prince and Michael Jackson,but I think there are many other artists who stayed true to R&B/soul and didn't really jump on the "pop" bandwagon.My Top 10 must be made up of true R&B artists Prince would probably be somewhere in my Top 20,though.

SoulAlive said:

TRUE but most women can only sing they dont write and produce and play like men

SoulAlive said:

Oh ok. I can dig that

I finally got my top 10 together after about a week of research and what not:


1.) James Brown [ & the JB's ]
2.) Stevie Wonder
3.) Ray Charles
4.) Aretha Franklin
5.) Marvin Gaye
6.) Sam Cooke
7.) Otis Redding
8.) Little Richard
9.) Jackie Wilson
10.) Sly & the Family Stone


numbers 11 through 30 I will have up on tomorrow ...