Najee said:[quote]

phunkdaddy said:

yup..

very true


I remember when 'Word Up' hit the scene, and I was telling people, who just discovered them, to expect them make a sequel to that album, which they did

But still a great band

Najee said:

No one claimed she's strange,single life,to be watered down,however;those albums especially single life wasn't as strong as their earlier albums. Only side 1 of the single life album was relevant. She's strange was a good album
even better than word up. The main argument about word up is not that it was
watered down, the song or album was not as good as their earlier albums.
The people here have spoken on a previous thread i started about the top five
cameo albums. Only a few even put word up in the top five. Who cares about the chart success of the album which is primarily your main point. If we went by
chart success we would be fans of the bullshit that is running across radio today. Our generation bought records because they were good not whether or not the album sold 2 million copies.
Trust me save electric lady, no one would ever get cameo confused with confunkshun as both felton pilate or michael cooper are far better vocalists than larry or tomi jenkins. As i stated many times, cameo was inspired by parliament, barkays, and ohio players so there were gonna be some similarities
but each funk band bought their own thing to the table.






;

I think 'Word Up' is a decent album but hardly their best.It doesn't even compare to albums like 'Alligator Woman' and 'Knights Of The Sound Table'.

It's odd that the song "Word Up" became their big crossover hit.The song "Alligator Woman" should have been their big pop crossover success,since it's clearly New Wave/pop sounding.The video should have been all over MTV.

Najee said:

thanks for the info.I listened to the song "Style" yesterday and it is whack There's a reason why I hardly ever play that song.It is a complete carbon copy of "Be Yourself"...same groove,same music! I can't believe they released such a blatant carbon copy single.Needless to say,finding this album is no big priority for me,lol.I'll eventually track it down,though.

SoulAlive said:

"Alligator Woman" probably would've been at hit as well. But you gotta remember that in the early days of MTV, they ran the network like an FM Rock radio station. That meant that they wouldn't give Black artists the time of day. Bastards.

But thank goodness Michael Jackson and Prince changed all that.

I will defend to the death the importance of "Word Up". See, that along with the "Single Life" was my introduction to Cameo since I was a child of the 80's. So they crossed over...so what? To me crossing over means that you're getting your message across to a broader audience. And they were bringing their brand of Funk to the masses, and it was great.

a funny story: back in '82 when that song was out,I used to go around singing the lyrics to girls I would see at the mall:

hey lady,whatcha say
How about some fun today
Is it yes,is it no
Whatever it is,just let me know

hey,I was in my teens...young and dumb

SoulAlive said:

And I'm sure you got many of these

NWF said:

Once the masses are exposed to funk, it's usually not a good thing for future albums coming from the particular group that crossed over. After people crossover, they usually weaken their future music to try to continue to appeal to a large group of people that never cared for funk anyway. The people that get fucked over in the process are the funk lovers because they are getting a weak product.

Just look how Lionel Richie turned out once he got pop success. Hell, Shitney went after the pop audience from day one. Michael Jackson fucked up not only his music but his appearance as well going after a pop audience. Hell, just look how rap turned out once MTV got their hands on it. Even Prince was never as strong again once he got a pop audience. He may have not turned his back on the funk but he made so much money that he could become artsy/fartsy and not worry about his old fans dropping him. I've never seen crossing over as a good thing. I've seen it as a horrible thing.

Actually, I liked radio best when the stations were segregated....not by black or white, but by funk or rock. You did not hear rock on funk stations and you did not hear funk on rock stations. White funkers like Teena Marie were welcome on funk radio but, of course, black rockers like Prince should have been welcome on rock radio. My thing is, keep the genres together on their own stations and if you get in the mood to hear some rock, turn to a rock station. If you get in a funk mood, turn to a funk station. Never mix the two though because then the artists are going to start watering down their music so they can please everyone. Like I've always said...."Make the hardest music you can and if the other side doesn't like it, fuck 'em.".

vainandy said:

You make some valid points.Sometimes,crossover success isn't all it's cracked up to be.The pop audience can be very fickle and of course,Cameo never had another big hit after the 'Word Up' album.

vainandy said:

OK, See I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with you here. There's nothing wrong with crossing over and incorporating other genres into one's music if the results are good. I think the best artists are ones who don't stick to one formula: Prince, Cameo, Talking Heads, P-Funk, David Bowie, Lenny Kravitz, Chili Peppers, The Clash, Beck, Scritti Politti, Paul Weller, Outkast, Michael Jackson, etc.

What you're basically saying is that music shouldn't be diversified and should be formatted into separate genres. Maybe you personally would like for that but I'm a very musically moody person. I can't just be into one thing at a time. I like it when artists mix things up and create new sounds out of whatever hybrids. And I don't think that when these artists want to try different sounds or happen to cross over they water down their sound, especially if their music is good. And it's not like they're trying to turn their back on their old audience. They just wanna expand and allow the listener to explore their new directions. For example, you're saying that when Prince crossed over with "Purple Rain" and "Around The World..." you're accusing him of being "artsy-fartsy" and stuff. Obviously you missed the point of where he was coming from by stereotyping his sound. His music was still pretty funky and catchy. Just because he added elements of Psychedelic Pop, Jazz, Classical, Worldbeat, etc. doesn't mean it didn't sound good. I thought what he did was brilliant. It made him unpredictable and daring.

The best artists are the ones who step outside the box and explore new things. It gives you the anticipation of seeing what they'll do next. I mean, if they kep on doing the same thing over and over again then it's just gonna sound stale and boring. As far as the FUNK! Well, it's great for what it is, but it isn't everything. And if a Funk band like Cameo wants to add some Pop or Rock to their sound then that's fine. They probably should've re-invented themselves after "Word Up" which would've made them not make the mistake of sounding stale afterwards. I'll admit that they did kinda go downhill from there. But that was because they kept trying to emulate themselves instead of trying different new things.

I hate it so much when people aren't willing to give their heroes a chance to cahnge and become successful with it. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with crossing over if the music works and the artists become successful as a result. Isn't success what all artists strive for anyways?

But then again I can kinda see your point. Some artists just completely sell-out and lose their way at some point (No Doubt, Black Eyed Peas, etc.). But I think that may have to do with the artists selfish desire for more financial gain. But that's just me. But I mentioned that there are artists such as the aforementioned that are great in whatever style they play. If a Funk band wants to rock, let 'em rock.


Just like Funkadelic sang, "Who says a Funk band can't play Rock...?"

Oh yeah, my friend who is my favorite DJ tells me that back in the day when he was living in Arizona, he used to see Larry ride his motorcycle often. Interesting, especially since Cameo was based in NY and the ATL.

That's the keyword...if it's "good". Most of the time it's not.

Having a strong funk song like "Sexy Dancer" and a strong rock song like "Bambi" on the same album is fine. Both are different genres but strong and true to each genre. Even combining the elements on a song like The Isley Brothers "Livin' In The Life" is fine also. They are combined but both are equally as strong.

When it becomes fucked up is when you weaken the funk elements such as drums, bass, rhythm, etc. or whatever it is that makes a song funky because a pop audience might not like the song because it sounds "too black". Racism existed in the 1980s and many pop listeners would not buy a song if it sounded "too black". I have a problem with R&B acts watering down their music to please people like that.

If an artist like Tina Turner wants to make rock tracks like "Better Be Good To Me" and "Simply The Best", that's fine. She kept them straight rock and didn't try to make an R&B song that would please a pop audience. If R&B audiences didn't like the song, that's fine, it wasn't for them because it wasn't R&B to begin with. A black artist doesn't have to stick with strictly R&B just because they are black.

When you get folks like Shitney Houston though, that little boring ass tries to get money from both audiences so she waters down R&B so the pop audience will like it. The end result is a weak product for both audiences.



I like different things also but, when I'm in a mood, I'm in that mood. I don't want to hear a funk song, then follow it by a rock song, then follow it by a slow song. I want to hear maybe 30 minutes of funk around the same tempo, slow it down with maybe two or three songs in a row, and speed the tempo back up again for another 30 or 40 minutes. When I'm a horny whore, then I like to hear all slow stuff. When I'm mad as hell, I like to hear all rock. It's just according to what mood I'm in. I usually like my music in blocks. With different stations of all one format, you can switch stations when your mood changes.




Prince never watered his down. He simply switched gears altogether. All I'm simply saying is that he could never have afforded to do that back when he had a mostly R&B audience. So for that reason, yes, I would have preferred if he never gained a pop audience. Why would I want him to be able to afford to stop making what I want to hear? As for "Well, that's what Prince wants", I'm consumer, I'm more concerned with what I want, not what Prince wants. By the way, I love the stuff after the style change. I'm not going to lie though, I prefer the stuff before the style change and would love to have had about 4 or 5 more years of it until R&B music changed as a whole.
.
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[Edited 4/5/07 14:53pm]

WAYNE COOPER REST IN PEACE!!!!! OTHER THAN "WHY HAVE I LOST YOU", HE KICKS ASS ON THE SONG "TWO OF US" FROM THE "UGLY EGO" LP (1978). AND ACTUALLY, THE ORIGINAL VERSION OF "WHY HAVE I LOST YOU" IS ON "WE ALL KNOW WHO WE ARE". I GIVE THAT ONE THE NOD OVER THE VERSION ON "CAMEOSIS"!!!!!

ANOTHER QUESTION IS WHERE IS FORMER KEYBOARDIST GREGORY JOHNSON?????

ThePunisher said:

AARON MILLS!!!!! HE ALSO PLAYS ON "MS. JACKSON" BY OUTKAST!!!!!

phunkdaddy said:

To tell the truth, I found only "Alligator Woman" to be a complete album from their discography. "Single Life" was little more than a two-song album, but albums such as "Ugly Ego" were also uneven. And at least "Single Life" was an attempt to try more diverse songs such as "Little Boys, Dangerous Toys" and "Urban Warrior;" albums such as "We All Know Who We Are" were basically in the same locked-in sound.

phunkdaddy said:

Not that I would call that a scientific poll, and I've read some other comments on this board that made me scratch their head. You also have the same people gravitating to the same threads, and if you have several people saying the same thing I guess it does sound like a "consensus."

phunkdaddy said:

The only person who keeps harping on "chart success" is you. In fact, you bring it up and then "smack it down" as a strawman argument. I've never said anything about "Word Up!" save that it seems to be a reason for some people to dislike it.

Wow, "Word Up!" sold 1 million copies -- which means is slightly more than what albums like "Single Life," "Alligator Woman," "Feel Me," "Knights of the Sound Table" did. I'm challenging this argument that "Word Up!" was a lesser album because Cameo stripped down its band.

phunkdaddy said:

No, what I said is that Cameo was too similar to acts like The Bar-Kays and Con Funk Shun, in that same style of music. Where Cameo started differentiating itself from these acts is when Larry Blackmon slashed the group and started moving away from its same old locked-in sound its peers were stuck doing.

All in all, cameo is still one of my favorite funk bands najee.
I understand you like the alligator woman and word up albums best.
Did you buy emotional violence? When that single came out, i was like yeah then when i bought it, I was like aw hell naw.
I bought the promo of their last release sweet sexy thing back in 2000
for 5 dollars. I actually dig it. My favorite from the album is you make me
crazy which they played at the last show i saw them perform in 2002. They are
great live. Have you seen cameo perform live?

I am shocked i thought word up actually moved 2 million units because it was
popular across the board.
[Edited 4/6/07 9:59am]

Cameo had a tremendous influence on Miles Davis' 80s band. Davis modeled his band after first-hand observances of Cameo (though I'm more inclined to say PFunk).

Miles was into the music of Cameo and the group attended Miles's 62nd birthday party. Miles also said that Cameo had influenced his live act. "I learn from Prince and Cameo," said Miles. "I like the way Cameo does their live shows....Seeing the way Cameo featured the other musicians first helped me do the same thing in my shows."

THE LAST MILES - George Cole pg 430
http://thelastmiles.com/

Cole also cites that Vince Wilburn Jr, Miles' nephew and a drummer, played with Miles on his initial return from retirement (MWTH '80/81)


and later again, after a stint with Cameo, from '83 to '85 on DECOY and YUA.



Wilburn is currently involved in a project to integrate the music of Miles Davis with hip-hop artists. Along with cousins, Erin and Cheryl, they comprise The Miles Davis Estate.

http://www.jazzreview.com...-5292.html
[Edited 4/7/07 13:50pm]

A couple of years ago, I joined a band with an old college chum of mine. It was to be a funk act with singers. When drawing up songs to learn, we paused once and were like: "What to do from Cameo?" We settled on "Candy." That song just can't be topped for groovability. The riff alone catches people's ears. It rocks!!!

In their prime, they were the truth, for real.

phunkdaddy said:

I NEVER SAID I LIKED "WORD UP!" THE BEST AMONG CAMEO'S ALBUMS! Will you get that out of your head?!?! I challenged this assumption the album (and particularly the title track) was some watered-down attempt by Cameo to reach some crossover audience, when IMO "Word Up!" was as good as any song the band ever made.

As I said before, the "Word Up!" album wasn't inferior to most of the group's other albums and it was the only album where the band was able to sustain a string of hit songs -- the title track and "Candy" were No. 1 singles on the Billboard R&B singles charts and "Back and Forth" was in the top three.

I also challenged this assumption that "Word Up!" was watered-down because it was a top 10 pop hit. IMO, that's silly because if that was the case then "Single Life" (a song generally considered one of Cameo's best) was equally watered-down, because "Word Up!" was its musical derivative -- and it's really contradictory because "Single Life" did not cross over.

Also, this assertion by you and vainandy that soul songs that cross over "must have been watered down to appeal to non-soul fans (i.e. white people)." That's not always the case, and I can name plenty of the most definitive soul songs that were pop hits.

I doubt anyone is going to call Aretha Franklin's "Respect" watered down. Virtually every Marvin Gaye single (especially in the 1970s) was a pop hit -- "What's Going On," "Let's Get It On," "Got to Give It Up" were No. 1 pop singles. One of The Isley Brothers' definitive songs -- "Fight the Power"-- was a top five pop hit, and I've never heard anyone call that song "watered down." The list goes on from there.

phunkdaddy said:

By that point, Cameo was finished creatively. The soul music scene also had moved away from funk by the early 1990s.

phunkdaddy said:

I can't verify that because the RIAA's Web site is down, but I don't recall "Word Up!" selling that many units by the end of its commercial run. I would not be surprised if it was more than 2 million in units sold today.
[Edited 4/7/07 21:05pm]

No, not all the time. Just most of the time.



Those weren't from the 1980s either. The 1980s was the era when stuff had to be watered down to crossover. The pop world had such a strong hatred for disco in the 1980s and a lot of them considered anything black and uptempo in the 1980s as disco (something they hated and despised). Just look at the new disco compilations that have been coming out in the last few years. They have included uptempo jams from the 1980s such as "Let It Whip" that came years after disco's death.

vainandy said:

I'll agree with you on that. A lot of the Funk groups like The Dazz Band, Gap Band, Midnight Star, etc. unfortunately got lumped into the "Disco" category.

Najee said:

No dude i never insinuated that word up was watered down because it crossed over. I stated that it was watered down particularly back and forth and candy
compared to earlier cameo records. Janet's control album was happening around
the same time and it was just as funky as ever. Jimmy and Terry admitted they were just expecting the album to go gold and reach just every fan of r&b music but since it reached the pop audience it was cool just as long as it was understood as producers their goal was to reach the r&b audience. I never said that just because an r&b record crosses over it is watered down. I never called whitney or shitney, as vainandy calls her, a sellout because truthfully i have never been a fan of hers. She could sing her ass off but i always found her music boring until she did the heartbreak hotel joint with kelly price and
faith evans.

StarMon said:

Cameo/Funkadelic had some tight ass funk! Then they grew into their own...


Word up