CinisterCee said:

Not necessarily. A lot of these newer singers will sing live over pre-recorded music. The people attending the shows are paying big money for an overpriced karoke show.

perfect example was a few years back Beyonce,Alicia and someone else Together could not sell out the Garden here in Nyc! To put that in perspective Elton John has a show here in NYC soon, the show sold out in 3 minutes, Barry Manilow played the Garden recenlty sold it out in 9 minutes, now these guys are legends but arent Chart toppers anymore. So its funny how artists that now sell 1-2 million records or more cant sell 15,000 tickets even when bunched together in a package.

vainandy said:

Well the touring $$ are way down thats why u will see 3-4 artists on a bill and STILL not selling out, perfect example was a few years back Beyonce,Alicia and someone else Together could not sell out the Garden here in Nyc! To put that in perspective Elton John has a show here in NYC soon, the show sold out in 3 minutes, Barry Manilow played the Garden recenlty sold it out in 9 minutes, now these guys are legends but arent Chart toppers anymore. So its funny how artists that now sell 1-2 million records or more cant sell 15,000 tickets even when bunched together in a package.

there used to be a group called Pop Will Eat Itself...that kinda sums it up...



...

lastdecember said:

Ndeed! Generally, it's the older music fans that tend to have the money AND the loyalty. This also goes back to what Verdine White of (Earth Wind & Fire) and Mark King (of Level 42) have been saying: Back in the day, when record companies would sign a group or artist, they didn't necessarily expect them to be an immediate hit, right out of the box. They would have them tour, hone their craft over a number of albums, and gradually build up a loyal following , a fanbase that they could consistantly count on to support the music over the years. But When music companies started to make more money, they started to rely more and more on only the smash hits, and would drop anyone who didn't sell a certain amount, and move on to the next big thing--they looked at it as pure product; the actual music became secondary at best..."What do the young kids like? Never mind that they have the attention spans of squirrels, what do they want this week?" so, as you pointed out, Labels were making more money, but now there's no reliable back catalog or consistently loyal fanbase for all these new acts...and now we're seeing the slide....

there used to be a group called Pop Will Eat Itself...that kinda sums it up...



...
[Edited 3/22/07 15:20pm]

Of course just look at artists from the 80's alone who didnt sell right off the bat they were mainly touring artists who built their own fanbase by showing their talent.


Prince- chart success didnt come till 5th cd
Inxs- chart success didnt come till 5th cd
Duran Duran- chart success came mid 2nd cd
Depeche Mode- success around the 5th or 6th cd
Bon Jovi- success 3rd album
John Mellencamp- success around 5th cd

and the list goes on


The point is by todays standards all of these artists would be dropped.

paligap said:

And violently vomit it back...

Could you imagine planning to retire on the Ciara or Cassie catalog.

lastdecember said:

Ndeed! Generally, it's the older music fans that tend to have the money AND the loyalty. This also goes back to what Verdine White of (Earth Wind & Fire) and Mark King (of Level 42) have been saying: Back in the day, when record companies would sign a group or artist, they didn't necessarily expect them to be an immediate hit, right out of the box. They would have them tour, hone their craft over a number of albums, and gradually build up a loyal following , a fanbase that they could consistantly count on to support the music over the years. But When music companies started to make more money, they started to rely more and more on only the smash hits, and would drop anyone who didn't sell a certain amount, and move on to the next big thing--they looked at it as pure product; the actual music became secondary at best..."What do the young kids like? Never mind that they have the attention spans of squirrels, what do they want this week?" so, as you pointed out, Labels were making more money, but now there's no reliable back catalog or consistently loyal fanbase for all these new acts...and now we're seeing the slide....

there used to be a group called Pop Will Eat Itself...that kinda sums it up...



...
[Edited 3/22/07 15:20pm]

oh, and t-shirts/merchandise. good news for you designers.

theAudience said:

it's hilarious and so sad at the same time....
...

Thats the thing too, the truth Music Sales are down, but not for catalog of artists like The Beatles,Zeppelin and tons of others, sales are way down for the new kids in town and also there is no catalog sales for them, thats why you wont see many of them do 4-5 cds, if they get that far its amazing.

lastdecember said:

Right, that's the other hilarious/sad point --- because now it's only about immediate hits, the labels wanted make sure that even promising artists don't get a chance to develop a following or get a back catalog, guaranteeing that there's no bankable acts down the road! Van Hunt is an example of somebody who probably would've developed and grown, and he got booted after two cds...but he was lucky to get that in the present climate...lots of folks get shown the door after one record...it's as if the record companies set themselves up to eventually fail....well, that and the other factors like the pricing issue...





...
[Edited 3/22/07 15:46pm]

But why does the industry not recognize this?

calldapplwondery83 said:

That's a good question! I dunno, it almost seems that for a while there, the money was coming in good, so they didn't care how they got it---it's like they were treating the music itself like an afterthought; they were looking it as pure product--if this particular product doesn't deliver a certain amount of money immediately, get rid of it, and grab a new product....

Can You imagine if Prince had gotten dropped after For You, because it didn't go platinum? People would just remember him as that little guy with the big Afro who had that one R&B tune--- "he was kinda was like a little Stevie Wonder-type dude...

But, now that I think about it Stevie has said often that some bean counters at Motown were trying to convince Gordy to Drop him, back in the 60's, because he wasn't selling as well as some of the others--- Can you imagine if it had only been about the bottom line, like the corporations we have now



...

Answers: well it would be too much to have to try and reintroduce them to America, and that wouldnt be worth the payday they would bring us. If they cant sell us a million, theres no need.

This was a very sad conversation, that basically showed me that no one at labels want to "work" artists anymore!

yup, that's the problem right there---it's sinking them , and they seem perfectly fine with it....



...

paligap said:

Exactly so many would be dropped, or at least marketed in a way that if they didnt sell a million they'd be gone, its really really sad. I remember the countless delays of the last Stevie Wonder CD, the main reason was the label was trying to build a BUZZ! Wtf? its Stevie Wonder and they were treating him like he was some new jack, they also were setting it up because they wanted no less than 250,000 first week, its this kind of mindset that makes me wonder why anyone would go to a label at this point, unless you arent serious about music.

But if i had to pinpoint a time where it all started to go wrong, i think i would blame the whole soundscan phenom. When i worked at Sam Goody, it used to kill me when sometimes people would come in and ask "Whats selling, i want to buy something thats hot right now", i used to think, doesnt anyone THINK for themselves, why do you have to have what everyone else has. And of course my favorite would be talk amongst younger people that would shop there, "Thats platnum, did that go platnum", It just used to kill me, the ignorance, I mean why would you even care, its not like your getting royalities, or even that the artist is getting paid, if your a new jack, you better have a clothing line or something, because the music contracts they have make them nothing. So to me Soundscan is an issue, debuting at number one as the focus, week 1 sales focus, all of this is crap.

Very interesting thread. I agree with everything said, here especially lastdecember. I don't think it's ALL the labels' faults, though. I don't know why and how exactly it started, but there just seems to be no place to promote new music nowadays. MTV? Forget it. Radio? Forget that as well.

I think all they can do at this moment is to drop prices for CDs and downloads, as painful as it might be, it's just too expensive. $20/17 Euro for a new CD? F*ck no. And of course try somehow to get back to developing and marketing meaningful music. Because, as someone here said, all these no-talent "artist" aren't producing classics for back catalogues. Call it a far reach, but it seems there haven't been ANY really timeless songs fot quite some time that we will listen to in 50 years.

lastdecember said:

Good point. That's why I used the term, music fans, a few posts up, and not the general public. I really think that most people, outside of true music fans, don't really care, one way or the other. They just want something new to dance to, something to get romantic with, or something to put in the background and ignore. They may be vaguely aware that the music isn't as good as it used to be, but not enough to really bother them.



....

But if i had to pinpoint a time where it all started to go wrong, i think i would blame the whole soundscan phenom. When i worked at Sam Goody, it used to kill me when sometimes people would come in and ask "Whats selling, i want to buy something thats hot right now", i used to think, doesnt anyone THINK for themselves, why do you have to have what everyone else has. And of course my favorite would be talk amongst younger people that would shop there, "Thats platnum, did that go platnum", It just used to kill me, the ignorance, I mean why would you even care, its not like your getting royalities, or even that the artist is getting paid, if your a new jack, you better have a clothing line or something, because the music contracts they have make them nothing. So to me Soundscan is an issue, debuting at number one as the focus, week 1 sales focus, all of this is crap.

Amazon Seeks to Fill Classical Recording Niche

By BOB TEDESCHI
Published: March 19, 2007

CLASSICAL music fans, the refugees of the retail world, can be forgiven for feeling unwanted.

Specialty chains like Tower Records and other independent music stores have been chased into oblivion by big-box retailers, which offer classical fans little other than Andrea Bocelli’s latest pop release or “Baby Einstein’s Lullaby Classics.”

According to Paco Underhill, chief executive of Envirosell, a New York-based retail consultancy, Tower’s closing has been “absolutely devastating for the classical music community. And the transition to online isn’t as natural as it might be for products with a younger customer base.”

So what store wants customers who can differentiate among Beethoven’s symphonies (other than the Fifth)? Perhaps not surprisingly, Amazon does. The Internet’s catch-all merchant last week opened a classical music discount store — a move, analysts said, that could benefit the company handsomely, since classical fans actually buy, rather than steal, their music.

“Somebody’s got to serve this market, and this could be a great opportunity for Amazon,” said Russ Crupnick, an analyst with NPD Group, a research and consulting firm.

Amazon’s new classical music Blowout store complements its core classical music offering, which has been in place since 1998 and features about 100,000 titles. With 2,000 deeply discounted CDs and a small but growing number of audio tutorials, the Blowout store is meant to be an introductory service of sorts for those who wish to build classical music collections but are not willing to spend large sums on a genre they know little about.

“It’s an enticing way to try out something you might not otherwise want to take the risk to discover,” said Thomas May, Amazon’s senior music editor.

Mr. May said Amazon’s classical music sales last year grew by more than 22 percent, making it one of the fastest-growing music genres on the site (Amazon does not break out separate revenue figures). The Blowout store will seek to feed that trend by offering most titles at 30 percent of regular prices.

The Blowout store’s tutorials are audio profiles of various artists, with examples from different CDs, of 5 to 10 minutes. The site currently lists five profiles — studies of Handel, Vivaldi, lute music, the Nashville Symphony and the violinist Julia Fischer — and Mr. May said more would appear each month.

Amazon’s initiative comes at a time when classical music sales are either advancing nicely or in a free fall, depending on whom you believe and what you consider classical music.

According to Nielsen SoundScan, which uses industry data to track album sales, classical music sales jumped by 22.5 percent last year, after dropping by 15 percent in 2005.

But SoundScan last year counted albums like Josh Groban’s “Awake,” Andrea Bocelli’s “Amore” and Il Divo’s “Ancora” as classical albums. Combined, these performers’ crossover albums notched eight of the top 10 classical recordings last year, and 91 percent of the top 10’s sales.

Without these titles, the genre’s fortunes look much less rosy. NPD Group’s consumer survey data, which does not include albums like these in its classical music category, shows that classical sales dropped last year by 28 percent, and have dropped by 54 percent in five years. Mr. Crupnick, of NPD, said Amazon’s new initiative “could at least slow down the decline.” He said that the Web site’s merchandising expertise would help it market the genre more effectively than many offline stores. “Amazon knows that you’ve bought Shostakovich in the past, or browsed it,” he said. As a result, Mr. Crupnick said, the site could show customers messages about new releases or discounts or similar artists. (Mr. May, of Amazon, confirmed such an approach.)

“Compared to other industries, the music industry is just starting to get the idea of how to bundle and cross-promote so customers feel like they’re getting something special,” Mr. Crupnick said.

Amazon will also probably suggest more mainstream music — and can do so knowing that these classical fans are much less likely than other groups to go to a file-sharing site for illegal copies.

Amazon declined to speculate on the file-sharing proclivities of its customers, but Paul Foley, general manager of Universal Music’s classical group, which is among the biggest classical producers, said: “This is definitely a demographic that retailers want. It’s just a matter of making it easy for them to shop.”

To that end, Mr. Foley said Amazon’s Blowout store is a “very positive” initiative. “They’ve been one of our top customers for years, so we’re thrilled they’re getting more aggressive,” he said.

Mr. Foley, whose labels produce Mr. Bocelli’s records, among many others, said Amazon is taking advantage of a soft spot in the retail market that may not exist for long. In the wake of the closing of Tower Records last fall, Mr. Foley said, retailers like Barnes & Noble, Borders, J&R and Virgin began ramping up their classical music inventories. Even at the expanded levels, these retailers still carry fewer classical titles than Tower did, but he said the selection is significantly better than what big-box retailers carry.

Universal’s classic group, in turn, is expanding its advertising efforts with these stores to make consumers aware that their offline shopping options did not die with Tower. Until those efforts bear fruit, Amazon is, for many, the only alternative.

Still, the online opportunity is large, said Mr. Underhill, whose companion of 10 years, Sheryl Henze, plays flute and piccolo for orchestras and symphonies throughout the United States. Specifically, he said, Web sites could evolve with on-demand manufacturing capabilities.

“It makes much more sense to store all the music digitally and manufacture it at the point of order than keeping it all in inventory,” Mr. Underhill said. “You could also print whatever supporting material you want, and not be limited by the liner notes of the traditional LP or CD.”

Indeed, Amazon already offers a print-on-demand CD service like this, where music producers and labels allow Amazon to digitally store songs and albums that are not economical to store physically in bulk, and manufacture them whenever an Amazon customer orders the title. Sean Sundwall, an Amazon spokesman, said the service is fairly well known among record labels, but nearly unknown among consumers.

http://www.nytimes.com/20...ei=5087%0A

But if i had to pinpoint a time where it all started to go wrong, i think i would blame the whole soundscan phenom. When i worked at Sam Goody, it used to kill me when sometimes people would come in and ask "Whats selling, i want to buy something thats hot right now", i used to think, doesnt anyone THINK for themselves, why do you have to have what everyone else has. And of course my favorite would be talk amongst younger people that would shop there, "Thats platnum, did that go platnum", It just used to kill me, the ignorance, I mean why would you even care, its not like your getting royalities, or even that the artist is getting paid, if your a new jack, you better have a clothing line or something, because the music contracts they have make them nothing. So to me Soundscan is an issue, debuting at number one as the focus, week 1 sales focus, all of this is crap.