I only notice that Madonna’s "artistic evolution" and her bank account fit well together & that’s quite rare for true artists… we certainly all be agree to say that her music is maybe one the best mainstream pop ever & success hasn’t alienated her ( like for mj...) but please Madonna’s fans don’t use the words “risky” “provocative” or “diva” about her/ her songs, thanks.

jnoel said:

I think 'Ray Of Light' is a RISKY album for any mainstream artist to have done.

Any artist who makes a video where they're dancing in front of burning crosses is certainly "PROVOCATIVE",wouldn't you say?

Admittedly,the term "DIVA" is over-used these days,but if J-Lo can be called that,then certainly Madonna deserves that title too

In reality DavidEye & I know that’s another discussion, I don’t even understand how can someone who is a “music lover”, unless you’re a teenager, can be fan of Madonna’s music or of any so mainstream pop act in general.
I don’t see the deepness , the mystery the “real” feelings in this music it’s safe, pleasant, even very pleasant but Madonna could sing about her children or the color of her socks I wouldn’t see the difference ….
I’ve just heard Sarah Vaughan singing “April in Paris”, (& I’m not a jazz addict) it’s so beautiful, it left me speechless ( so don’t bring me “Live to tell” after this one

yeah, davideye..i just see the strenght in maddy's current music..when i hear it, I think of Beth Orton who as doing *that* kinda acustic/tec beat music *way* before maddy..and much better...imho..

and as far as sampling goes..i think there is a huge difference between a song like No More Drama or Someone to Call My Lover and a Puff Daddy...Yes I agree that the songs use hooks or choruses from other songs (or in the case of No MOre Drama a piano riff from a soap oprea theme) but thats not the whole of the song...And this is why I think your bias (or dislike of samples) is coming to play...

You pointed out Janet's All For You, if you listen to the song you will hear that its got its own melody, its own verse structure and two samples that decorate the song...you remove those two samples and you have the same song called All For You...A Puff song on the other hand is complely structured behind a sample...there is no additional arrangments and there is only *rapping* over it...

And like I mentioned before, one could easily say Maddy is *sampling* music herself..Listen to Beth Orton, listen to Staring at the Sun, and dont tell me they dont sound identical to whats on Ray of Light..and this stuff was out years before...but, since Madonna has the marketing push and the public is lazy, they think its a Madonna sounds...Thats why I cant call it Maddy's growth...its just a different producers style...Surely you know that Madonna asked Bjork to produce the entire Bedtimes Story album...Bjork laughed her off...It was only till Bjork's bestfriend begged her to do something so Bjork gave her the one song...Im sure if Maddy would have done a whole album of Bjork tunes, people would have been talking about this new direction and new found style of music Madonna had *created*...completly ignoring the fact that Bjork had been doing it for a whole decade prior...

Speaking of Bjork, that chick is who Madonna fans wish she were..(artistically)...Bjork went from working with producers (Nelle Hooper/Tricky/Neptunes) to producing her own stuff...She has always written her own music...She was able to *write* her own musical overture for her film (Dancer In The Dark)...She recieved a Cannes Award *and* a Golden Globe nomination for her acting (as well as an Oscar Nomination for her *own* song writting)...She writes classical music *and* jazz music..and her music has evolved to including these elimates into them...She has grown artistically...and before you mention Maddy's Golden Globe win, please keep in mind that that performance was widely panned and that she won in the musical/comedy category up against light comedy performances...Bjork gets nominated for a Drama performance even though she was in a musical..why? because Hollywood takes the Drama category seriously..*and* dont forget these are the same people who gave a win to Pia Zadora..

and finally, I think its hypocritical for people to complain that Janet needs to stop working with Jam & Lewis when people keep screaming that Michael should get *back* with Quincy Jones...i hear differences from each of Janet's albums...but, like i mentioned earlier...many people think all of prince's albums sound the same..so its all subjective...

and in closing , thanks all for the fun debate..expecially Davideye for sticking to his guns and insisting that Maddy has grown...even though your wrong...hehehehe, j/k. at anyrate, im having/had fun...oh oh oh, AND MADDONNA *CANT* ACT!!! She was horrid in Evita and everything else put DickTracy and A League of her Own...Please tell her to stop making movies...(and david, how you gonna act stealing my *style*...hehhehhe)

Actually,I don't think ANYONE would say that all Prince's albums sound alike:)

And yes,I'm sure Maddy is just sooo jealous of Bjork (snicker,snicker).

This has been a great conversation though.I'm honored to defend the Queen,Madonna

I have nothing to add to this debate of Madonna's or Janet's growth but I just have to say that "Music" is one of the worst albums from a major pop artist that I like in years. Other than Impressive Instant and Gone (and she has done other ballads in this style much better in the past) there is nothing on this CD worth listening to. Compared to Ray of Light it is simply a mess. Don't Tell Me sucked beyond belief, as did the title track. The whole album reeks of this "plastic-y" production which people here often complain about in other folks' music (but not Madonna's). No, for Madonna, it becomes "ingenious growth" on her part. This CD has some of the most boring songs of her career.

And that's my rant on "Music".

Almost all of her other albums are cool, tho...

SkletonKee said:

I have nothing to add to that really, I just wanted to sneak in and say that I liked Bjork's original group The Sugarcubes too. They swung! Who would think that an Icelandic group could have SOUL?


I have nothing to that either really, except to say that Hollywood's acceptance of dramas at the expense of comedies is SOMETIMES dubious. Comedy is NOT an inferior genre - in fact it's harder to successfully pull off than drama.


OK, see, this has turned out to be a darned good thread, better than Madonna deserves, and it probably should have been an entirely different thread, but ...aren't you comparing apples and oranges in this case?

Michael Jackson last worked with Quincy Jones 15 YEARS ago, and only on 3 solo albums within an 8 year span. Since then he's worked with a lot of different producers on his subsequent albums. For him to go back to Q and work with him wouldn't be stagnation after all these years, as DavidEye seems to be saying Jam & Lewis' ideas for Janet's albums are.

Janet hasn't worked with a different production team in 16 years, and I don't know how many albums. DavidEye isn't the only person to think Jam & Lewis production style has become stale, many people have said so. But that doesn't matter in the pop/r&b marketplace when talking about "hits."

Lord, first a unintentional defense of Madonna, now this ... at least Mike has worked with different producers over the years since his heyday with Q - mind you, this doesn't always make the music "better", but most times it brings a different sound at the least.

DavidEye said:

Certainly not musicians who actually listen to him. I'd also doubt serious music fans would after listening to more than a couple of albums.

Sometimes people confuse an artist or group having a distinctive sound with their music sounding the same. There is a big difference.

jtgillia said:

---

Thank God a sane voice!!! I think Music was horrible
and I am not that wild about Ray of Light. I think we all are in a lot trouble when Madonna is being refered to as a artist. Madonna is a performer and great at marketing herself. I do not think she has a orignal musical idea in her head.

Supernova said:

girrr...dont you know thats the truth...do u have their first disc on cd? With the added remixes? "Come on...lets play monkey?"..."I wont start acting like a monkey until you treat me like a monkey!!"..what the @%!?



oye...to my surpise, look at the winners


Winner:
Evita (1996) - Madonna

Other Nominees:
101 Dalmatians (1996) - Glenn Close
Fargo (1996) - Frances McDormand
Mirror Has Two Faces, The (1996) - Barbra Streisand
Mother (1996/II) - Debbie Reynolds

Now, France went on to win the Oscar...so, i guess thats telling how close to a Pia Zadora award this was that year...and i completly agree with Hollywood's lack of respect for comedy performances...damn them to hell for not ever awarding Madeline Khan with a win..rip...




ohh..i soo agree with this statement too...I was just making a point though that many casual prince listeners have complained (to me at least) that all of prince's music was the same...just like Davideye stated about Janet's music...and in all cases, I, to an extent can understand where its coming from...

okay, and since i agree that maddy isnt worth this great thread, hopefully these will be my final words...maybe...hehehe





lube the edit all over.....
[This message was edited Sat Sep 14 21:31:34 PDT 2002 by SkletonKee]

A discussion about Madonna, Janet AND Bjork? This is great! Throw in Annie Lennox and you've got my 4 favorite women in music history!

DavidEye said:

That's my bro! He was indeed the one with me at the Drowned World Tour!

I think that at least Janets knows her limits & doesn't pretend to be better/ more important than she is, Madonna makes me think about some best-seller makers ,like John Grisham, who try pathetically to be considered as a great writer in the same level than Hemingway, for instance

I loved all of your comments on this thread. It went from a mainly serious Madonna thread (finally) to a Janet vs. Madonna one.It has always been a Madonna vs. Janet competition and Madonna had always had the somewhat upper hand because she didnt grow up rich.She struggled and lived some shit.One day All For You will be seen for how great it is though. And to add to Janets' catalogue, each release has been a theme and has included Like A Prayer -type personal reflection songs interspread as Moonbeam pointed out about Velvet Rope. All For You was her culmination of everything personal, breakups with a husband AND longitme friend Tina Landon (choreopgrapher) and new outlook.I admit I am biased with All For You because Ive seen the tour and gained a newfound respect for Janets' work ethic and catalogue. I love Madonna but I find Janets material more easily to listen to straight through without having to skip any songs. Janet has only worked with Jam and Lewis since 1987 but hey--their production has changed sounds with her several times as if she has had different producers. It WOULD be great to hear her on a few songs with another production staff just to see what happens, but for the most part she is doing alright, which is to their credit for having such longevity and hits with the same crew. No flavor of the month stuff ya know? And hell yeah Madonna has grown..with her audience as well. I love both of these women for their own reasons.

listening to "into the groove" right now

SkletonKee said:

I had their debut, Life's Too Good and I had their last one, Stick Around For Joy. I don't know what happened to either of them.

Supernova said:

"Here Today, Tomorrow, Next Week!" is their best one! I suggest checking it out if you liked the other two!

""Here Today, Tomorrow, Next Week!" is their best one! " Not agree, "Deus" rules!

jtgillia said:

I felt that 'Music' was a very unorthodox album.In just 10 songs,Madonna covers alot of ground.There are only two songs that I don't like,"Runaway Lover" because it sounds like a typical dance song with nothing special or distinctive about it,and "It's Amazing" because it sounds a little too much like "Beautiful Stranger".But the other tracks are superb,imo.The title track sounded sooo good in the clubs."Impressive Instant" should have been a single,and "I Deserve It" sounds heartfelt and honest."What It Feels Like For A Girl" is one of Madonna's most powerful songs (I love the lyrics "when you're trying hard to be your best,could you be a little less?" and "when you open up your mouth to speak,could you be a little weak?").

Initially,I felt that 'Music' was meant to be a fun,celebratory-type album,the complete opposite of the more intropective and soul-baring 'Ray Of Light'CD.But upon closer inspection of the lyrics,it's evident that Madonna still had alot of important issues on her mind and the album is deeper than most people realized.One can only wonder what her next CD will be next.

rdhull said:

Please you just like that soft porn part of the act where she's dry humping the guy on stage.




Control came out in 1986. If you would quit to that Janet DVD you just got, your memmory wouldn't be so cloudy. :p

Ifsixwuz9 said:

damn I love you Six

lol:

rdhull said:

smooches

DavidEye said:

I agree 100% with your assessment of this album! "Runaway Lover" and "Amazing" are my least favorites too. Dead on again, DavidEye!

Moonbeam said:

I'm not going to look through much of the rest of this thread right now, so excuse me if this has already been said.

Yes, Janet is to be commended for revealing her innermost throughts and feelings. It's a big step for any artist. My only problem with this is that her innermost thoughts and feelings are rather shallow and not very well-articulated. Yeah, poor her. Rich little girl, rich grown woman. When pressed by Oprah to tell her why she was depressed, Janet straight-faced said that she remembered being yelled at by a teacher when she was little. Even the ever-compassionate Oprah was skeptical about this one. And the look on her face said "oh for fucks sake!"

my computer's broken. so i need to have this up to read it and learn.

subyduby said:

The Sugarcubes were wrong, God's exists!!!

Madonna's growth?? she looks pretty short to me!!!