DavidEye said:

I know it was based on another song and is more of a "cover" than a new track. Still, I think the sound of "Son Of A Gun" is very fresh and inspired. IMO it's one of the standout moments on a rather uninspired cd...

(And it's just so BITCHY, for a month I'd listen to it every morning on my headphones as I walked from my busstop to work..I loved it and it helped get me to the cool-cruel-bitchy place I had to be in to supervise a phone team in a customer service center)

(the first thing to go is the spelling...)
[This message was edited Fri Sep 13 1:06:19 PDT 2002 by endorphin74]

subyduby said:

Exactly! When I wrote all that,I didn't even mention her groundbreaking videos,her kickass world tours,her successful Maverick record label,her keen fashion sense,her 'Sex' book,etc.I focused primarily on her *MUSIC* and her evolution as an artist.But,when you factor all those other things in,there is no denying that Madonna is incredible!

DavidEye said:

She already did..."The Velvet Rope!" I love Madonna too, as you know David, but I love Janet just as much!

Velvet Rope was extreme for her but I don't think it's anywhere near as bold a step as "Ray of Light". I just don't think Janet is as risky an artist as Madonna. She needs to sell her millions and get played. For Madonna to do an entire album in one style is a very ballsy move on her part. As I read on AMG, she's moved from being a singles act to a full-fledged album artist. That's a big step.

TRON said:

The very fact that Janet revealed her innermost thoughts and feelings is a BIG step for her. All for You just continues in that direction with songs like "Truth" and "Better Days."

TRON said:

TRON,I think you're becoming my favorite Orger

DavidEye said:

He's great, isn't he? 3 cheers for my bro! I think you're fantastic too, David! I simply have an affinity for Janet, that's all. Nobody defends Madonna like you! You make my job easy.

So,is he really your brother?! Is he the one that went with you to the Drowned World Tour?

Ok,let's have a little fun now.Here's a little Madonna trivia and little-known facts that might surprise you...


***Originally,the "Like A Prayer" video was gonna be even MORE controversial! The original storyline (which Madonna wrote) featured her and her Black lover being gunned down by the KKK at the end!!

***After the success of "Take A Bow" with Babyface,Madonna was gonna work with him again.In early 1997,they did a few more songs together,including a lovely ballad called "Don't Talk To Strangers".The song was shelved when Maddy decided to work with William Orbit and go in another whole direction.

***Madonna was good friends with the late rapper Tupac Shakur.In 1994,she recorded a song with him called 'I'd Rather Be Yo'Lover'.The song appeared on her 'Bedtime Stories' CD,but for some reason,the Tupac rap was replaced by a Meshell Ndegeocello rap instead.The original version with Tupac can be found on various bootlegs,including the 'Makaveli 2' Tupac bootleg.

***In 1995,Madonna and her controversial boyfriend Dennis Rodman were all set to appear on the cover of 'Vibe' magazine.She interviewed him for this cover story.However,Vibe founder Quincy Jones chickened out and cancelled this exclusive cover story.

***After the 'Ray Of Light' CD was recorded,Madonna made plans to release a 2-CD Remix album called 'Veronica Electronica'.That project remains unreleased,but it would have been interesting since it was gonna include the original 10-minute version of the track "Ray Of Light".Btw,"Veronica Electronica" was the name of Madonna's alter ego for this album (I guess she's learned alot from Prince...lol).

***Last year,Madonna was offered $3 Million to write and record the theme song for the movie 'A Beautiful Mind'.She turned it down because she wanted to do the James Bond theme instead.

Awesome DavidEye. Some of this I did not know.

Have you checked out those rare tracks on Madonnaweb?

TRON said:

Yes,I have heard some of the rare Madonna tracks.A few months ago,I sent Moonbeam a TON of info on Madonna's unreleased music.Unlike Prince's unreleased songs,it's really hard finding Madonna bootlegs.

Tell me about it. That's why that officially released Pre-Madonna is so great. I love all those old tracks.

TRON said:

I love that CD!!For those of you who don't have it, the 'Pre-Madonna' CD contains early recordings from 1980-81 before Madonna got her first record deal.The CD is also released under the title "Madonna---In The Beginning".It contains the following songs...

"Crimes Of Passion"---this is a nice dance track

"Everybody '97"---basically,they just took the 1981 demo of this song and updated it with 90s instrumentation.

"Ain't No Big Deal 97"---ditto

"Laugh To Keep From Crying"---OH MAN!! Madonna sounds like Chrissie Hyndes of The Pretenders!! This is a kickass rock song in which Madonna plays guitar.She was a member of a punk band called The Breakfast Club,and this is one of their early demo recordings from 1980.If you are a Madonna fan,you MUST hear this song!!

"Burning Up"---this is a 1981 demo of the song that appeared on Madonna's debut album.This version is more "punk rock" than the slicker,polished released version.

"Ain't No Big Deal 81"---A catchy dance track that appeared on the 4-song demo that got Madonna signed to Warners in 1982.Surprisingly,this song was left off her debut album,being replaced by the song "Holiday"!

"Everybody 81"---this is the early version of the song that appeared on Madonna's debut album.I actually prefer the album version though.

"Stay 81"---an average song,nothing special.Madonna changed the lyrics a bit and released it on her 1984 'Like A Virgin' album.

"Don't You Know"---WHY,WHY,WHY wasn't this song released on Madonna's debut album???!! It's better than *ALL* the other songs that made the album!!! I'm tellin' you guys,this is the GREAT LOST MADONNA SONG that should have been released!! This song appeared on the 4-song demo that was presented to Warner Bros,but for some reason,it was never released on any album,or even as a B-side.Sadly,the version that appears on this CD is a poor quality version that's kinda hard to hear.Madonna should find the master tape and put it on her inevitable box set.

DavidEye said:

come on now davideye...dont just look for reinforcement of your own opinion..consider what others are saying...

DavidEye said:

okay, now im on th border of being offended here ...*YES* i know who Carly Simon is...im a huge, massive fan of hers..but, for 1) Carly actually isnt sampled..she re-interpeted the song and 2) I HATE SAMPLING..but if you listen to the song without your own biases you will find that the song has very lil to do with the original song "Your so Vain"... the music is *not* the same..the chorus is the same, but the melody is completly different...but the album as a whole is groundbreaking.....

btw: why is it *not* okay for Janet to use a chorus from an old song but its okay for Madonna to bite other peoples sounds, songs, fashion sense, attitudes for her own? isnt it the same thing? sorta? heheheheehee

and if you think Mariah, Mary and Chante have the same sound, then I guess I shouldnt continue this discussion because there is nothing similiar sounding to these people ...I think your personal biases/dislikes are starting to come into play here...I cant stand Mariah or Chante myself..but I would never say they sound the same..And as much as I love Mary J..I have the balls to admit that Faith Evans and her sound *way* too much alike...

and heck, I even like Madonna..but, im not such an overzelous fan to say she has matured into a good artist...she, just like Janet are great pop performers...read my last post again...i gave them both props...and disses...equally.


sample the edit!!!
[This message was edited Fri Sep 13 7:11:46 PDT 2002 by SkletonKee]

subyduby said:

I'm still astonished of how you will kiss anyone's ass who would go in your direction without even try to think for your own, True Blue was/is a terrible shit,her Babyface album stinks & "Don't cry for me Argentina" is maybe the worst song ever, just for this stupid cover of an awful song Madonna must be in jail, & + Evita Peron was a fascist but once again , it sure shouldn't have been a good business decision for her to tell it.
"AND RISKY STUFF SHE DID SUCH AS HER CLOTHES, DANCING,SEX" stupid than ever, what was "risky" there?

jnoel said:

i never said i agreed with them. i just thanked that person for the review. and other maddy fans from another forum also said something near.

what i meant by the risky stuff, is:
"Madonna added to the slutty, and vulgar image by exposing herself nude and in compromising positions with everyone and everything (including dogs) in that Sex Book! She spouted rude, obnoxious comments at people while sadistically laughing with others! Publicly seducing men and women (whether they were attached or unattached, camera on or off). I've never witnessed Prince performing those acts. If he did, I think he would have been banned from the music industry as a sick pervert. She's receiving passes left and right in everything and you know the answer to that! If that ain't vulgar, I don't know what is! Please!

and also:

"Exactly! When I wrote all that,I didn't even mention her groundbreaking videos,her kickass world tours,her successful Maverick record label,her keen fashion sense,her 'Sex' book,etc.I focused primarily on her *MUSIC* and her evolution as an artist.But,when you factor all those other things in,there is no denying that Madonna is incredible!"

and everything about the "bad" song,etc. is only your opinion.
[This message was edited Fri Sep 13 11:36:32 PDT 2002 by subyduby]

Moonbeam said:

but moonbeam...lyrics are just one thing. does it really matter to you if she reveals her innermost thoughts or the quality and the enrichment of the song as a whole?

there are several songs with tacky lyrics yet the song sounds good or interesting overall. for exapmle...the song where maddy sings: me singy,singy.( or something like that).

should the music ability be considered a big step instead of lyrics?!

jnoel said:

Thought I was the only one who noticed.

+ “Papa don’t preach” is certainly the most hypocrite song ever, a catholic father would NEVER ask her daughter to abort (well, maybe only if her life was in danger) if she wanted to be be cleverly provocative & in touch with reality in the same time she would have sung “I don’t keep the baby” ( that would have helped teenage girls in a dramatic moment of their lifes) but she didn’t have the balls to have the right/ conservatives on her back about this
& it’s funny how after the 15 mn Erotica/ Sex pseudo provocative circus she followed with a safe mainstream record, I guess that if Saddam had won the Gulf War she would have released an irakian songs album …

“. and other maddy fans from another forum also said blah blah.” At 15 it seems that it’s already to late for you to change….

jnoel said:

you know, that is soo true...Erotica was the one and only Maddy album I bought...I was expecting this jarringly sexual album and after the first couple tunes, *that* whole idear seemed to be replaced with standard pop tunes...the same for bedtime stories...I remember all the media touting that album as a more r&b/babyfaced produced album and once again, only a couple tunes and the rest standard pop tunes...i felt the same about Ray of Light and Music...Music was a big dissapointment to me...All the talk was about the lead song "music" being this return to disco/dance...and the bulk of the album was standard madonna fare...i love madonna's singles..but the albums (with the exception of Ray) have never really stood up to a full listen...

It's cool that you're agree with me SkletonKee because I wanted to apologize for a previous attack against you , maybe one day I would tell Suby "I'm sorry my dear"

jnoel said:

God forbid I should defend Madonna, because I'm not a fan. In a round about way I'm going to do that, but my defense is a defense of writers in general (it's something close to my heart and my fiance is one).

I don't think it's hypocritical for someone brought up in a Catholic family to write/sing such a song. She's doing it from the perspective of those who have gone through the experience.

A writer's job isn't only that of conveying one's own experiences, it entails conveying some experiences outside of one's own life - because a writer is generally an in depth observer, and if he/she is a better than average writer (or singer), if you ask me, he/she will have empathy for experiences of others. Sometimes certain writers have limited experiences in life. To me, what matters most is that they feel a passion for it enough to want to express a particular experience. Hopefully, they don't just want to do it to provoke, but because they have empathy for the people inhabiting the story, or because they think the issue is of great importance.

Bruce Springsteen wrote and sang a first person song about living with AIDS. He doesn't have to experience it to create the song.

Neil Young wrote a song about a southern bigot, and it entailed descriptions of a beating of a Black man with a bullwhip. Young is neither an American, an American southern man, nor a Black man. Still, his song has merit, because it was rooted in an era of American history that did indeed exist.

Now, whether or not Madonna comes across as a believable protagonist in the song "Papa Don't Preach" is left up to the interpretation of the listener. Personally, I think her forays into wanting to become a "serious artist" is an ambition beyond her grasp. I liked her earlier, more dance/pop oriented music better because I didn't feel any pretense attached to it.

Jnoel, how do you feel about John Lennon's song "Imagine"? The reason I ask is because I remember someone once said that the line "Imagine no possessions" was hypocritical coming from someone as rich as Lennon...I don't know if I agree or disagree. And maybe my interpretation of the song (which I feel is overrated anyway) is more along the lines of Lennon wanting the world to be less materialistic, and how money sometimes makes people do irrational AND evil things. I don't know if I agree that someone has to be less than rich to hold such an idea. It's more about whether or not that rich person lives like a high on the hog glutton, and has no altruistic values.
[This message was edited Fri Sep 13 13:42:54 PDT 2002 by Supernova]

Supernova, I think that’s it’s hypocrite in the case of this song because like I wrote it’s not the reality (I remember the video she wore a “italians do it better” tshirt so she chose to put ahead her italians (so catholic) roots) if a young girl wants to keep her baby ok , it’s a courageous decision to raise a kid for a teenage girl (more if the “father” is suddenly invisible) but it’s not a problem in this context to decide to keep the baby, it’s even in a certain way romantic (at least she wouldn’t be accused of being a” murderer”)
I can’t stand Imagine because here in France it’s in a tv ad for a bank (thanks to Yoko, as greedy than mj) ,+ I prefer when there is anger (like in Bob Marley’s “get up stand up”) in a political song better that “the world is beautiful let’s be nice” side of Imagine
But I agree with you about the role of a writer, even if I’m for death penalty for the authors of the teletubbies

jnoel said:

really? did i notice it? I hope I didnt bite back...but at anyrate...apology accepted...your a cool guy and I dont even remember the disagreement..so it musnt have been a biggie..

*cheers*

SkletonKee said:

Jnoel...Madonna doesn't like to repeat herself.After the 'Erotica/Sex/Body Of Evidence' phase of 1992/93,she wisely chose to move on and do something different.Since her record sales were still impressive,she could have easily "played it safe" and worked with her 'Erotica' producer (Shep Pettibone)and made the same type of record.She wisely chose to move on,and 'Bedtime Stories' is a completely different record than 'Erotica'.It's more mellow,warm and inviting.I consider this to be "artistic evolution".

Skeletonkee...the song "Music" was meant to be a tribute to Madonna's early 80s dance music days,but she *NEVER* promised that the whole CD would be like that! I don't see how you could say the rest of the album was "standard madonna fare".Songs like "Paradise (Not For Me)","Impressive Instant" and "Nobody's Perfect" are unlike ANYTHING she had ever done before.Listen to those songs again,my friend!

Madonna is now working on a new CD,and once again,it promises to be totally different than the two previous albums.MTV News recently commented on a new song called "Unless It's You",saying that it is unlike anything she has ever done before.

DavidEye said:

Very Well Stated&Put Man.Janet Jackson ain't changed Jack&is just doing Madonna's SLoppy 2nd's nearly 10 years later.Madonna dropped "Erotica" back in 92 it took Janet in 98 to find the "Velvet Rope".She is a tired Lucky Trick.Two Important Albums&Some Songs&that's all IMHO.Jam&Lewis have gotten Musically too Fat&Formula Driven.yeah they drop a Jam on her every now&then but too often than not they are on Crusie Control.Madonna does explore&trys a few new things Janet ain't flipping nothing new.except for the Mariah Re-Mix which She will get Missy.Jimmy Jam is still Burying Janet further in the mixes.

DavidEye said:

well, it sounded rather stale and popish to me...you see, i probably have my own biases when i listen to her music..because of all the *great* talent she surrounds herself with..i except more then four songs and a bunch of filler...but, you get all the hype about the latest album *concept* and it never follows through...

im sure you have your own biases against janet's music...but what it all comes down to is subjectivity...

just like the many many many..(did i point out *many*) people who say all of prince's music sounds the same...well, you and I know better then that...but to discredit Janet and then put Maddy on this holy pedestal just seems funny to me...because they seem more like peers and equals then any other two female artists...and they both have great achievements *and* major flaws...but of course diehard fans arent going to admit or even acknowledge that...

i will though..i aint got nothing to loose (or gain).

jnoel said:

Ahh. OK. I think I understand now.


I agree.


Brutal!

SkletonKee said:

The thing is,I don't hate Janet and I don't have any biases against her.I LOVED her 'Rhythm Nation' album,it's her strongest,most accomplished work and there's really not a bad song anywhere on it.In 1993,Janet decided to get "nasty" and explore sexual themes.Nothing wrong with that,but she's not really *evolving* as an artist.Madonna already did her "sexual phase" and now she's moved on to bigger and better things.Prince already did his "sexual phase" and now he's onto something different.But Janet is still faking orgasms on record,singing about some guy's "package" and how she wants to "ride it tonight".

And,even more disappointingly, *EVERY* album she does is produced by Jam and Lewis.It's almost as if she's afraid to work with another producer or two,to broaden her horizons and find some new inspiration.Don't get me wrong,I'm a Jam and Lewis fan and I have many of their early productions.But,their sound is simply stale and uninspired these days.When I mentioned Mary J.Blige,Mariah and Mary J.Blige,I wasn't really saying *THEY* all sound alike,I was saying their *PRODUCTION* all sounds alike because it's done by the same team,Jam and Lewis.Their music relies too heavily on samples (Mary's song "No More Drama" features a prominent sample from a soap opera theme song!!!).This is actually my main problem with today's R&B music in general.There's no originality,artists utilize the same producers,and samples have pretty much taken over.

Sampling is cool when it's done in small doses.Even Madonna uses the occasional sample.The 'Bedtime Stories' CD features samples from Aaliyah,Herbie Hancock and a few others but it's mostly done to enhance the songs.But look at Janet's song "All For You"...that song is basically just the 1980 Change song "The Glow Of Love" with Janet singing new lyrics over the original song.And yet you consider this to be "artistic growth"? 'Ray Of Light' and 'Music' contain all original music,and both albums are distinct and don't sound the same."No offense to Puff Daddy",Madonna said in 1998,"but it's not too inspiring when you're just stealing someone else's music".She could have just as easily been talking about Janet.
[This message was edited Sat Sep 14 4:23:07 PDT 2002 by DavidEye]