Aaron said:

I like watching the boys who dance with her tho!

endorphin74 said:

yeah, whatever happened to that really hot blonde guy that danced with her when she was out promoting Oops? damn, he was fine!

DavidEye said:

?

All of Janet's albums are distinct. "Control" is her claim of independence. "Rhythm Nation 1814" is her foray into social issues. "janet." is her acceptance of sexual icon status. "The Velvet Rope" details her problematic marriage and her innermost thoughts and fears. "All for You" represents a refreshing new outlook on life. There is nothing on any of her previous albums like "Better Days" or "Truth." There is nothing on her other albums like "Empty" or "Free Xone."

Moonbeam said:

yeah, but ian they all follow the same pattern. start out with the mainstream sure-fire hit-type stuff. then introspection in the middle. and at the end, some moaning over a rainstorm.

now, i'll give her credit... she did shake it up with All For You. the rainstorm/moaning bit came in the middle of the album! ground-breaking...

Aaron said:

"Rhythm Nation" starts with the title track, then moves into "State of the World" and "The Knowledge," neither of which were released as singles. "The Velvet Rope" opens with the title track and "You," neither of which were singles. "All for You" starts with "You Ain't Right," which was not a single.



I will concede that "janet." suffered from too many dreamy interludes toward the end, but "Rhythm Nation" is a perfect album with a perfect sequence. "The Velvet Rope" closes with "Special," (excluding the bonus track) which hardly fits the description of the proverbial sensual ballads that purportedly clog the end of her albums. Granted, before that the tone is much more mellow (anything after "What About" is a ballad). With "All for You," the ballads seem to flow really well in the middle. As my bro noted, they almost sound like one song.

Here we go- arguing about nothing again.

Moonbeam said:

Since 1993,Janet has been making the same albums over and over.She works with the SAME producers (Jam and Lewis) and their sound is stale these days.Musically,her last three albums all feature bass-heavy R&B songs that now rely heavily on samples.Lyrically,she seems stuck in a "Hey,you've got a nice package,can I suck you?" mode,as if she is just discovering sex.Lyrically and musically,she's not doing anything new or inspired.

Btw,Madonna's new single "Die Another Day" has just been sent to radio stations in the U.S.

Have you guys heard it yet?

TRON said:

Oh,it's not an argument,just a friendly discussion

DavidEye said:

Just the fact that she has covered this makes me cringe.

DavidEye said:

Sorry, but "janet," "The Velvet Rope" and "All for You" all have a very unique flavor to me.

Moonbeam said:

i didn't say singles. i said mainstream sure-fire hit-type stuff. RN, SOTW, TK and MYM all fit that bill.

Moonbeam said:

yes, but... then that's like comparing blueberry yogurt with banana yogurt. yes, they have a different flavor. but it's still yogurt.

Ya know, each time I look at the thread title: "madonna's growth", I imagine some cancerous tumour instead of what was intended... yucky!

Aaron said:

Whatever- that's like saying that all 4 Revolution albums are different flavors of the same thing...

Moonbeam said:

that would be more like 2 banana yogurts and 2 bluberry yogurts

moonbeam I agree with you on velet rope janet talked about personal issues. I love that album, and yes all of janets album are different. madonna and janet are two different artist in two different phases in life janet is younger than maddy so don't expect her to be on the same level in life.

Since this thread is about Madonna's growth as an artist,let's examine all of her albums to see just how far she has come as an artist.You'd be surprised!...


***'Madonna'(1983)---With tracks produced by Reggie Lucas and Jellybean Benitez,Madonna's debut album is a vibrant collection of tasty R&B/dance tracks.Nothing here is really innovative or unique,but for a debut album,it's not bad at all.It's also worth noting that,even at this early stage,Madonna was writing most of her own lyrics.She wrote 5 songs: "Lucky Star","Burning Up","I Know It","Think Of Me" and the funky "Everybody".


***'Like A Virgin'(1984)---Determined not to be seen as just another pretty-faced dance music act,Madonna's second album is much more diverse than her debut LP,which seemed primarily aimed at the clubs.With Chic producer Nile Rodgers on board,this album features New Wave-styled tracks alongside more conventional R&B/dance songs.Madonna co-wrote 5 of the albums' nine songs.She even does an inspired remake of the 1978 Rose Royce classic "Love Don't Live Here Anymore".


***'True Blue'(1986)---With this album,the critics were put on notice : Madonna has grown up,and so has her music! Songs like "Papa Don't Preach" and the sublime ballad "Live To Tell" are mature and introspective,and can hardly be considered "bubblegum pop".

***'You Can Dance'(1987)---Nowadays,remix albums are all-too-common but in 1987,Madonna was one of the first mainstream artists to do one.Shortly after 'You Can Dance' came out,we began seeing these types of albums from the likes of Jody Watley,Bobby Brown and Paula Abdul.

***'Like A Prayer'(1989)---Critic Stephen Thomas Erlewine wrote "Out of all of Madonna's albums,'Like A Prayer' is her most explicit attempt at a major artistic statement.Even though it is apparent that she is trying to make a "serious" album,the kaleidoscopic variety of pop styles on 'Like A Prayer' is quite dazzling.Madonna displays a commanding sense of songcraft,making this her best and most consistent album".Quite simply,this album is miles ahead of the first three albums.Songs like the haunting "Oh Father",the touching "Promise To Try" and the ecstatic title track are all brilliant,personal songs that make a mockery of her early dance/pop hits.


***'I'm Breathless'(Music From and Inspired by the film 'Dick Tracy')(1990)---Once again,Madonna changes her tune and does something entirely different.This time around,she's tackling big band pop that sounds as if it was recorded in the 40s (to capture the mood of the 'Dick Tracy' movie).On songs like "Sooner Or Later" and "Something To Remember",Madonna's singing shows a surprising amount of range.But she hadn't turned her back on dance music...this is the album that features the irresistible "Vogue",which is the first real "house music" song to reach Number One on the charts.


***'The Immaculate Collection'(1990)---A superb Greatest Hits collection that introduces two new songs,including the steamy,controversial hit "Justify My Love".Co-produced by Lenny Kravitz,it features a hip-hop beat,sexy lyrics that are spoken instead of sung,and haunting synthesizer throughout.It's different than anything she had done previously and proved that,in the 90s,she was determined to try new things while continuing to surprise people.


***'Erotica'(1992)---'Erotica' is Madonna's best album,imo.It's a sexy,intoxicating affair,quite possibly the best "club record" of the early 90s.Lyrically,this album is all over the place."Deeper And Deeper" is about a minor coming to terms with his homosexuality,"Where Life Begins" deals with female-to-female oral sex,"In This Life" is a poignant look at the AIDS crisis,"Why's It So Hard" is about the need for world peace and unity,and "Bad Girl" covers a deeply dysfunctional relationship.And,oh yeah,there's the S&M theatrics of the title track.In his excellent book "Madonna-An Intimate Biography",author J.Randy Taraborrelli writes..."'Erotica' could have been ahead of it's time.The song "Secret Garden",with it's lyrics spoken over a jazz combo,is akin to the cool soul music acts such as The Roots and Erykah Badu would champion almost a decade later,under the banner of "neo-soul"."

***'Bedtime Stories'(1994)---Much of the music on 'Erotica' was intentionally cold,distant and robotic,to perfectly capture the dominant S&M theme Madonna was exploring at that time (displayed even more openly in her 'Sex' book).For 'Bedtime Stories',Madonna tried a new approach.This time,the songs are warm and inviting,"sensual" instead of "sexual".Working with producers like Babyface and Dallas Austin,the music throughout is mostly R&B,but there's also the Bjork-styled title track and the hard-hitting hip-hop of "Human Nature".

***'Something To Remember'(1995)---This is a compilation of Madonna's best ballads,some of which were never released as singles.Songs like "This Used To Be My Playground"(1992) and "Take A Bow"(1994) are emotionally charged performances and as a vocalist,Madonna just gets better and better with each new project.On new songs like "You'll See" and "One More Chance"(produced by David Foster),she moves effortlessly into the adult contemporary arena.Her lite-techno ramake of Marvin Gaye's 1976 hit "I Want You"(recorded with Massive Attack) is nothing short of brilliant.

***'Evita'The Complete Motion Picture Soundtrack(1996)---By the mid-90s,Madonna had already proven several times that she is much more than a one-dimensional dance music act.But she wasn't done yet,she was STILL determined to move ahead and take everybody by surprise.In 1996,she starred in the critically-acclaimed 'Evita' movie,and recorded the stunning 2-CD soundtrack which features possibly the BEST singing of her entire career! On songs like "You Must Love Me","Another Suitcase In Another Hall" and of course,the showstopping "Don't Cry For Me,Argentina",Madonna's vocals are amazing.But,the best was still yet to come...

***'Ray Of Light'(1998)---Once again,Madonna takes the world by surprise with a critically-acclaimed,breathtaking album that,along with Lauryn Hill's 'Miseducation' CD,was one of the best albums of 1998.This is Madonna's bravest work yet.Working with William Orbit,she created songs that are deeply personal and heartfelt.Apparently,the vocal lessons she took during the filming of 'Evita' really paid off because,on this CD,her vocals soar,sounding strong and self-assured throughout.The haunting,intoxicating techno flourishes make this a true masterpiece.When I first heard the opening track "Drowned World/Substitute For Love",I actually got shivers! I KNEW I was in for a real treat.

***'Music'(2000)---Madonna could have easily made 'Ray Of Light 2',but she wisely chose to take a chance and make a completely different album.She worked with Orbit on only three tracks this time,instead choosing the unknown Mirwais as her primary producer for the bulk of the album.When folks heard the kickass title track,they logically assumed that Maddy was returning to her early 80s dance music days,but they were wrong! 'Music' is,quite simply,her most unique-sounding album yet.Guitar-driven songs like "Don't Tell Me" and "Gone" could almost pass for country music mixed with techno! The mesmerizing "Paradise (Not For Me)" combines a slow,techno groove with lush orchestration and whispered vocals.Perhaps the two most distinctive tracks are "Impressive Instant" and "Nobody's Perfect",both of which sound as if they were recorded on another planet.

Moonbeam said:

Compare those three albums to the last three Madonna albums.Which artist is TRULY showing more growth with her music?

THANK-YOU SOO MUCH DAVIDEYE! EXELLENT REVIEW OF HER PROGRESS! IT'S AMAZING HOW MADDY CAN PROVE HERSELF AND CHANGLLENGE HERSELF AND THE WORLD WITH JUST HER MUSIC. AND NONE OF THIS INCLUDES ALL THE OTHER EXCITING AND RISKY STUFF SHE DID SUCH AS HER CLOTHES, DANCING,SEX, ETC.

hey Davideye, I don´t agree on Erotica being her best album at all. Her vocals on this album are embarrasingly bad.
Good god, even such a perfect pop song like Bad girl is somewhat ruined by the poor voice...imho

Vogue is *NOT* house music..where did that come from?

DavidEye said:

I think "janet." is better than "Bedtime Stories," "Ray of Light" just beats out the "Velvet Rope" and "All for You" beats "Music." Just my opinion, though! How can a gem like "Better Days" be denied?

Moonbeam said:

I'm with you on the above, except for "Ray of Light" just beating out the "Velvet Rope"... I think they're equally divine.. I don't know how I could separate them.

I happen to think The Velvet Rope will be recognized years from now as one of Janet's greatest triumphs...


The woman grew leaps and bounds artistically (and alienating a huge portion of her fan base)...Songs like Got Til Its Gone, Free Xone, Empty and What About were not very accessible pop tunes...hence Got Til Its Gone flopping on the radio...This is the closest Janet has come to to having a cohesive and *true* LP (her only success at this is Control)...

I think both she and Maddy have major issues with "filler* music in their albums...They tend to carry four solid classic pop tunes, numerous good songs and a couple clunkers per album...*edit* doesnt seem to be apart of either's vocabulary...

but to say that Madonna has grown more as an artist and I have to call foul...Its just not the case... For one, Madonna is recruiting new writers and producers to *mature* her sound while Janet tends to work with only Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis...Its astonishing to me that the same people who created "Nasty" have created a brilliant new sound (and dare I say work of art) in Son Of A Gun...I had never heard anything like that song...they elevated the act of sampling a song into an artform...With that said though, I do happen to think that All For You was a stepback artistically...Upon my first listen I felt as if Janet was trying to regain the pop audience that had made The Velvet Rope a dissapointing selling album...But hey, Maddy seems to do that *all* the time and she isnt knocked for it...

Now, while I normally dont bow down to the Grammy thang I do find it telling that Janet has won more Grammys throughout her career...Not just for *one* album...wait, did Maddy win something for Music? damn in getting sleepy to be rampling on about this...

I love how this has turned as much into a Jante thread as a Madonna thread...

I love The Velvet Rope. I agree with SkletonKee that it'll be someday realized as Janet's triumph. Empty, Free Xone, Got Till It's Gone, What About..all brilliant tracks. Also, having Roni Size throw Go Deep into the drum-n-bass mix was brilliant.

All For You...I love about half of it and can't even be bothered with half..I do think it's a weaker album than Music (sorry, Moonbeam). All For You (the song) is CLASSIC pop, though, as good as it gets. Son Of A Gun rocked my world, too...

What I hope Janet someday does is pull in some new folks ON her cd...instead of relegating Roni Size to remix a (weak selling) single, have him do some tracks on a cd, something to shake it up. Also, I really hope she skips the sex-orgasm fest on her next cd...

Madonna, what can I say that hasn't been said? DavidEye (once again) has summed her up brilliantly. Although, I'd have to argue about "Erotica". I just can't wait to hear what her next cd will be!

SkletonKee said:

SkletonKee said:

So,you think it's cool that they use samples?!...lol...Jam and Lewis are talented producers,but imo,they lost their touch a long time ago.The music they produce for Janet is stale and uninspired,and not really that different from the stuff they produce for the likes of Mariah,Mary J.Blige,Chante Moore and others (why is it that,in the R&B world,everybody has to use the SAME producers?).I would have more respect for Janet IF she worked with another producer who could take her in a more challenging direction.And btw,there was nothing "new" about the song "Son Of A Gun".If you think it's new,I guess you never heard the Carly Simon song that they steal the music and melody from

endorphin74 said:

Janet will *NOT* use any new producers because she seems afraid to branch out and try something new.Could you imagine her doing a bold CD like 'Ray Of Light'? It won't happen!

You know what's funny? On the Madonna message boards we frequently discuss our favorite Madonna albums,and the albums 'Erotica' and 'Ray Of Light' are ALWAYS listed as her two best albums.I always argue the merits of 'Erotica' and why I think it's her best work.