jtfolden said:

Robert Palmer was hardly some big-name artist in 1983, when his version of "You Are in My System" was released shortly after The System's. Also, The System's song became a hit single while Palmer's barely went noticed as a charted single -- it simply played itself out that The System's version ended up having better success.

Hence, no "controversy."
[Edited 2/3/07 11:45am]

jtfolden said:

So let me get this straight...just because YOU didn't hear it...it's not possible? RIGHT! FYI.... I happened to get the story from two people who were directly involved in the situation...both worked for the label (Mirage/Atlantic) at the time.

I think Sos' post settles this unfounded rumor. Thanks Sos!

sosgemini said:[quote]

panther514 said:

First, you cited information from Wikipedia, which does not always contain substantiated information from credible sources.

Second, David Frank and Mic Murphy are given copyright credit for "You Are in My System," not just Frank. That is the case for both their version and on Robert Palmer's version -- which should be the case since they both registered the song.

Third, only Frank's synthesized bassline is on Palmer's version. Given the copyright situation, that's natural that Frank has to be credited.

jtfolden said:

Read the bottom of any Wiki entry....YOU can post there....and people will think it's law....I'll believe the version I heard years ago from people who were actually there going through it.

panther514 said:

It makes sense to him/her because of any of the following:

1.) he/she likely was not alive during that time;

2.) he/she likely never heard of The System, save for possibly the single "Don't Disturb This Groove;"

3.) he/she likely doesn't listen to soul music unless it's defined in the context of non-soul music;

4.) he/she has a certain identity or image of Robert Palmer and doesn't want to think Palmer did anything of the nature pertaining to swiping a song.

As far as how Robert Palmer got his hands on a copy of "You Are in My System," a logical explanation could be The System sent its demo tape to Island Records (Palmer's record label) and he heard it.
[Edited 2/3/07 11:54am]

Najee said:

I'd say Esquire magazine is a pretty credible source for a start...



No one has argued otherwise, I don't think.



Frank would be credited for performing because he was there with RP/the band and *performed* on the track. This is a separate credit from the copyright.

panther514 said:

Exactly. Wikipedia's information a lot of times comes from people who edit information and those edits are accepted by the administrators there. A lot of what is posted on Wikipedia is not substantiated or approved by credible sources.

jtfolden said:

Save that Wikipedia entries are merely citations taken from a magazine like Esquire. That's different from Esquire submitting the information and/or approving it. Just because the information is lifted from a certain source by the moderator or someone who logged in as a member doesn't mean the source approves or substantiates its use. Most of what Wikipedia takes is unapproved or unsubstantiated information.

jtfolden said:

Really? When acts get their music sampled by other artists, does it mean the originators actually are PERFORMING it again, as well? Artists whose tracks are sampled such as James Brown also are given copyright credits on songs, because they have the copyright and own the rights to it. Any part of the originators' composition -- including parts performed -- have to list the original artists so they can receive credit.

So, are you going to tell us you know for sure that David Frank was playing with Robert Palmer on "You Are in My System?" Keep in mind what limited knowledge you had of the situation before this discussion.

This will be interesting because I would like to hear how two different acts who never met (according to The System) recorded a song together, and why a brand-new act would give its demo song to an established recording act on ABC record label while said new act was shopping that same demo for a deal (and later signed to XYZ record label).
[Edited 2/3/07 11:58am]

Najee said:

Regardless of the fact that Esquire did or did not submit info directly to Wikipedia, regardless to the fact that Sos linked to Wiki, the original recounting is still contained in the magazine for a start. Esquire is a credible source for the data, even if you just want to go back and pull the issue.

Right now, yours and panther514's posts are the epitome of unsubstantiated information. If you feel you have data to back it up, submit it to Wikipedia and see if it sticks.



What does this have to do with sampling in this particular case? I believe official sources recounted more than once in the course of 25 years over unfounded, baseless gossip, yes...



Please provide YOUR sources to this gossip. It's not holding up. According to official sources Frank was right there in the studio when it was recorded and performed on the track.

Unless you can come up with something at least as valid as the official sources, it's baseless. Rather like all those things you posted about me that were quite untrue, as well, yet you're prepared to believe them and post them without one shred of it based in reality.

Najee said:

"A logical explanation could be..."? So you're making it up as you go along? This is how baseless gossip gets started.
[Edited 2/3/07 12:07pm]

it's not only Esquire. Palmer's linear notes to his greatest hits also tells the story.

and Wiki actually has a pretty good record. they have experts who vet the stuff...there is a system in place for folks to dispute information. if anything is in dispute it is flagged as much...

Palmer's bio isnt flagged.

sosgemini said:

Oh yeah, but then you get another 6 posts about how liner notes aren't always right and that the sister of the mail mail guy who worked for a delivery company that packed boxes for the attorney of someone who knew someone is somehow a more substituted and believable source.

jtfolden said:

And if the information is not approved or submitted, then it also can be taken out of context or not verfied. For example, the following information as lifted by SOSGemini:

sosgemini said:

"(Palmer) jammed the song onto the Pride album after the other tracks were finished. Hearing the track in a Paris club, Palmer rushed back to his Bahamas hometown, where the reconvened band (co-composer Frank included) put together the number."

That may have been quoted by Esquire, but it's not verified. Also, Palmer's version of "You Are in My System" was released as a single only a matter of WEEKS after The System's was released as a single.

The only way that story makes sense is that Palmer heard the song almost immediately after The System's version was released, recorded it immediately after going from Paris to the Bahamas and Frank received permission from his record company to play on it (and naturally from his partner, Mic Murphy) and to let SOMEONE ELSE ON ANOTHER RECORD LABEL make a cover of their song -- which was just released as the lead single for a new act, mind you -- and have it out on the street.

I guess it's possible, but it still sounds a little odd.
[Edited 2/3/07 14:59pm]

jtfolden said:

And thank you for falling for that line, just like I thought. So predictable -- that line was put there as a set-up.

Mind you, you thought Robert Palmer released his version of "You Are in My System" ONE YEAR after The System did! You didn't know SHIT about the song and now you're an expert!
[Edited 2/3/07 12:52pm]

Najee said:

I think it's fair to call somebody on citing their sources so long as you cite your own as well.

RipHer2Shreds said:

I guess the best source would be to contact a member of The System themselves -- after all, it's not like Panther's account (where he relayed a story from people who worked at Mirage/Atlantic Records during this time) is given credence.

I have a hard time believing that a record company promoting a brand-new act would allow said act take the same single it was promoting to another, already established artist at another label to record the song. Both versions of "You Are in My System" were out at the same time in 1983.
[Edited 2/3/07 13:02pm]

Najee said:

That's his source. What was yours before he gave his account?


So, it's true because you have a hard time believing otherwise? I ask again - where did you get your information?

RipHer2Shreds said:

My knowledge of the issue from "You Are in My System" came from following the soul music scene in 1983, and particularly The System. In all the interviews I saw of the act, Mic Murphy and David Frank never addressed the topic of Robert Palmer covering their initial single as their version was out. I thought it was a little curious, particularly when The System was a new act promoting "You Are in My System" that the group never commented (good or bad) about Palmer's version being out concurrently.

I've looked at various sources over the years about anything the group said about it, and I didn't see anything -- the accounts I've ever heard were Palmer's. I also know a radio station DJ and programmer, respectively, in Atlanta and both said that when The System came on the air to promote their music, they didn't want to address the subject of Palmer's cover -- as in purposely telling people "Let's get off the subject."

I *GUESS* it's possible that Palmer was given permission to cover "You Are in My System," but a lot of the parts seem curious. Why would Mirage/Atlantic -- the record label -- give permission to let someone else at another record label (Palmer was on Island Records at the time) make a cover of the song while it was promoting it as The System's first single, for starters? I think some of you who were not aware of or around during this story are thinking Palmer's version came out considerably later than The System's version, but that wasn't the case -- BOTH VERSIONS PERFORMED BY DIFFERENT ARTISTS WERE RELEASED BY TWO DIFFERENT LABELS WITHIN THE SAME TIMEFRAME.

Keep in mind, The System's version literally just came out as a single when Palmer's version came out -- and when I mean "literally," I mean the difference in the singles releases were weeks apart. Both acts were on different labels, so you're not exactly talking about a planned marketing scheme here. I didn't see any advantage for the record company or the original artists letting someone else cover "You Are in My System," particularly since this was at the start of a new act's career -- then or now. You have to admit, if it was a planned collaboration it doesn't seem to be a venture that makes sense on a lot of levels.
[Edited 2/3/07 15:01pm]

I've got no dog in this fight/discussion, but I do remember reading certain things about The System/David Frank in general and this tune (You Are In My System) in particular.

The reason why the "Bio" may have any credence is because they are generally cleared by the artist (or their representative) prior to it being made public. The Electronic Musician interview with David Frank speaks for itself.

From David Frank's Artist Bio page on the Yamaha site...

About a year and a half later, Frank got a break when Atlantic Records soul/funk band Kleer enlisted him as their tour keyboardist. The band's road manager, Mic (Mike) Murphy, asked Frank to play on some sessions he was recording with friends. Up to that point, Frank didn't know that Murphy could sing. Collecting on studio time that he had bartered for in exchange for playing on sessions, Frank started on a track called "It's Passion" in which a pre-stardom Madonna was slated to do the vocals, but because of creative differences, she bowed out. Remembering Murphy, Frank invited him to his loft to work on the track. Murphy revamped the lyrics and melody and the two went into the studio, recorded the song in one day, and stayed up all night mixing the record. After their overnight session, Murphy took the master tape to an engineer friend who transferred the tape onto a 12" acetate record and suggested he take it over to Jerry Greenberg's Mirage Records, a subsidiary of Atlantic. The next day, Murphy called to tell Frank that the duo had a record deal; in two days, Murphy came up with the name the System, and within three weeks, "It's Passion" was receiving massive radio airplay in New York.

The next single, "You Are in My System" (November 1982), followed the same pattern by spreading to key markets around the country. Around Christmas, singer Robert Palmer contacted Frank about covering the song on his next album; after discussing the request with Murphy, they agreed to the cover. A cover battle ensued when Palmer released "You Are in My System" as a single at the same time as the original System single, but the System won hands down. In early 1983, the album The System was released; by this time, Murphy and Frank were being stopped on the streets of New York for their autographs.

...http://www.yamaha.com/Art...T,00.html#
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This is an excerpt from an April 2000 Electronic Musician interview with David Frank...

Like many great inventions, the System was born of necessity and serendipitous timing. Frank recalls the events that led to his fortuitous pairing with Murphy: "One day I got a call from Lou Bolognese, who owned a 24-track studio in Long Island. He wanted me to do a session as a favor, and he offered me some studio time in return. I thought I'd just do some demos and sample commercials with the time, but Lou said, 'Why don't you do a song? You know, a dance song, a 12-inch. Just get a singer, you can do it!'"

Frank programmed a song in a few weeks, but he still needed a singer. Why not ask the girl upstairs? he thought. "The girl upstairs was Madonna," Frank explains. "This was in 1981, before she had a record deal. We were in a pickup band together, and she was the singer. We rehearsed in the same building, called the Music Building, on 37th Street and 8th Avenue. I was actually paid to write with her. I made $30 for four hours of work," he laughs.

Frank had only the title for the song, "Crimes of Passion." He brought in the future mogul to write some words and a melody. Then fate intervened. "We were all set to do it. But the night before we were going to cut the song, Madonna called me and asked if Steve Bray, her drummer, could be in on the session as coproducer. "I love Steve, but I knew he would want to put guitars on the track. I had visualized it as a synth-only song, which was still a bit of a novelty at that time."

The conflict meant that Madonna was out. "I called up Mic Murphy, a singer I knew," Frank continues. "He wrote a new melody for the song and changed the words to 'In Times of Passion.' We recorded and mixed all of it in one day. He took it to a friend of his, who cut an acetate, a 12-inch, and we got a record deal with Atlantic the next day."

Within a month, the System, as the two had hastily dubbed themselves, had a hit song. Not long after, their label (Atlantic Records' Mirage imprint) wanted another, and gave the duo a budget of $35,000. "We thought that might be the last amount of money we ever got, so we decided to keep most of it for ourselves and make the record as cheaply as possible. We kept $10,000 each, so we could only spend $15,000 on the album. Of course, we were doing it all by ourselves, so we could get away with that amount." One of the best-known songs from those sessions is 1982's "You Are in My System," a song that would become a hit for both the System and, later, singer Robert Palmer. Suddenly, Frank was in demand.

http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_bottle/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Don't know if this will add any clarity to the discussion or just murky up the waters further.

For the record, I heard the song by The System and purchased the LP...



...Sweat (which I still have) long before I knew that Robert Palmer covered the tune.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

theAudience said:

Interesting ... particularly the latter statement about "a cover battle ensued when Palmer released 'You Are in My System' as a single at the same time as the original System single, but The System won hands down."

I assume the story meant The System's version was much more successful than Robert Palmer's version on their respective genre's charts (the songs weren't marketed in tandem to the same markets), but it never clarified what The System "won hands down."

According to that story, The System let Palmer cover the song. Good deal. I may have to take the "L" on this one, if that's the case.

I bought the "Sweat" album on LP when it was released in 1983, and own it on CD.
[Edited 2/3/07 17:33pm]

Najee said:

That sentence (without any elaboration) certainly didn't help to clear up the situation.

According to allmusic's Charts & Awards data (under Billboard Singles), The System's release reached 64 in the Pop Singles category while Robert Palmer's topped out at 78 in the same category.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

theAudience said:

You have to look at The System as a soul act, and their version of "You Are in My System" reached the Billboard R&B Singles top 10.

Robert Palmer, on the other hand, was a pop/rock/top 40 act and his version fared much worse on the charts of his respective genre. In fact, The System's version did better on the Billboard Hot 100 charts than Palmer's did (which also calls into question some of the words chosen in one of those articles, which referred to Palmer's version as "a hit").
[Edited 2/3/07 16:40pm]

Najee said:

True.

However their inclusion in the Pop charts indicates that they did get some notice in that genre (generally where the $$$ is).
And based on their higher chart position, more than the cover version.

They probably also received notice for that single/album from those looking into their back catalog after the greater Pop success of Don't Disturb This Groove.

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

I'm coming at this as someone who knows nothing about the music industry (I'm sure I'm a better person for that ), but wouldn't the fact that Palmer had access to a demo version of the song suggest that the track was being shopped to performers who might be looking for material?

theAudience said:

I don't know about that one. There seems to be more than a couple of people who thought "You Are in My System" was an original recording by Robert Palmer (including one or so on this thread). I remember when the both versions came out and the white people I know who heard the Palmer version and The System's version thought The System ripped him off.

A song positioned less than No. 60 on the Billboard Hot 100 singles chart shows it wasn't getting a lot of response from white audiences. I'm willing to say the reason The System's version got even that high on the pop charts was mostly because of its success on the Billboard R&B Singles charts and the club scene.
[Edited 2/3/07 17:28pm]

damosuzuki said:

That would be the job of their music publisher.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

damosuzuki said:

That, or The System themselves were shopping for a record deal (which they were doing at that time).

In "The Billboard Book of No. 1 Rhythm & Blues Hits," David Frank said that the song was inspired by the group's name, both of which were created by Mic Murphy. So by the time Murphy and Frank started creating the song, they already were calling themselves The System.

Even if Frank and Murphy did allow Palmer to cover "You Are in My System" according to the story TheAudience posted, there still are some parts of that story that don't add up.
[Edited 2/3/07 18:02pm]

Najee said:

haha A set up for what? Please don't lie. Virtually everything you post contains a line similar to that because a) you often try to present opinion as fact, and b) you've not revealed a single credible, substantiated source to back up this baseless rumour... So instead of attempting to cite any sources you are left with:

"A logical explanation could be..."
"Sometimes, I wonder if..."
"you had this feeling..."
"It's not unreasonable to say..."
"he likely was not..."
"I guess it's possible..."
"I have a hard time believing..."

That's how you talk, so don't front and say it was a setup.

On top of that when you go around talking about how someone was 'stealing' etc, without backing it up that's called 'slander'.

Meanwhile, people keep coming forward with more and more credible sources to indicate that not only did The System approve of the cover but that one of the composers was directly involved in the recording.



You really need to pay attention. The original song was released in 1982 (November, apparently), and RP's version was released in 1983. I never specified a specific time frame other than to give the release dates.
Shorttrini did, however, mention an 'entire year' so perhaps you are attributing his post to me... that's your mistake.

...and unlike you I haven't continued to just post opinions. When the baseless gossip didn't sound right to me, I actually did some reading to see what was up and try to become more informed on the subject rather than just beleive slanderous talk - as did several others here. Information wants to be free, as they say.

Najee said:

If you remove the rumors and gossip that can't be backed up with a credible source then what is left that doesn't make sense?