namepeace said:

Never take it personal, i like this forum, becuz it is dope and spread across on every musical landscape, but the bias to rap music is insane, and sometimes seriously uninformed, i am not a big prince fan, i don't think he is that great of an artist, a great musician but as an artist his work is seriously overrated, that there is so many rap acts that shit on everything Prince is done in his lifetime, but that is my opinion

Well tell that to Kurtis Blow when he did "The Breaks" or even Grandmaster Flash when he did "The Message". Those sound like original tracks to me. Even one of the very first rap records, "King Tim III" was by the funk group, Fatback, and that was original music all the way.



Well, that's a hell of a way to gain new fans.




I haven't seen any change. Maybe they changed the way they rapped or something, hell, I don't know. However, from the mess I've heard, the music has still remained a stripped down weak, cheap sounding midtempo beat with maybe a sample on top of it. As far as the spoken rapping style or technique changing....whoopie.....big thrill. That don't change the music and if it's more about the lyrics which tell a story rather than the music, it doesn't belong on record. It belongs on a thugged out soap opera.

Well, I guess so. When you have radio shoveling nothing but bullshit to people for years, eventually they become raised on it and know nothing but bullshit and actually think what they are listening to is great. Yeah, they will go out and buy the hell out of someone like 50 Cent and not even look Prince's way.

vainandy said:

You miss the point. Hip hop was not born when someone performed a rap while Fatback was on stage. While these were the first records commercially available, it actually did not represent actual hip hop shows.

CinisterCee said:

that is the main point, he will never get in his head, just cuz these records weren't sampled, most of the street rap records weren't like that, what they performed in the clubs weren't those types of records, those records were Sylvia Robinson trying to make rap music her way.

No, it wasn't invented when Fatback made "King Tim III". I remember DJs saying little simple raps over the breaks in songs even after rap was released commercially. But...if you're going to release something commercially, at least give people something original, which is what folks like Kurtis Blow were doing back in those days. If you want to just hear some rapping over someone else's record, the club DJs or MCs can do that for you. When original music dies completely out, what remains becomes old real quick and gets boring. I was entertained by the DJs rapping also but not when it gets to the point that it's the only thing that exists.

These rappers these days are in the wrong business. They need to get their ass in a club and let the musicians take back over the radio. Then, they will have something new and fresh to rap over since they can't seem to create something themselves. Things would be more entertaining all the way around.

I hate it when rappers sample the same song over and over again. How many of them have sampled "More Bounce To The Ounce"? Or James Brown's "Funky Drummer" or "Juicy Fruit" by Mtume? Enough already.

ThePunisher said:

Interesting perspectives. I have amost 0 respect 4 rap as an artform but I really do put all of the BLAME on the folks who buy this CRAP.

No talents have always been around in every entertainment pursuit, but people keep putting $$ behind this mess. That is the REAL culprit.

For the longest, it was the Isley Brothers' "Between The Sheets". They sampled the hell out of that one in every way shape and form. They even slowed it down to do it at it was already somewhat of a ballad anyway.

The best thing about the early rap was, a rap song was never slow. When they did sample, they used uptempo records. Of course, back then, rap was mainly available on 12 Inches and in those days, you never saw slow songs on 12 Inches....because 12 Inches were made for the clubs and dance floors. If I could go back in time, I would slap L.L. Cool J for making "I Need Love".

vainandy said:

But again, hip-hop was breaks and beats, and those who are true to the art form are true to that formula. Taking bits and pieces and weaving into a track.



They shouldn't be asking how legit dollars get into their pocket. Why would they complain about that.



All I'm saying is that dozens of hip-hop acts have been making great records since the early 90s (undoubtedly the golden age of hip-hop).

ThePunisher said:

Honestly, this holds about as much criticism as:

KingKrazy said:

Duly noted. I think parts of Prince's work are overestimated by Prince fans, but that his 80's work and some of his 90's and 00's work (released and unreleased) stands the test of time.

There are also many rap acts whose albums are superior to much if not most of Prince's work. It Takes A Nation of Millions To Hold Us Back, Blowout Comb, Madvillainy and The Low End Theory chief among them. I just think the hip-hop heads sell Prince a little short and vice-versa.

I don't mind sampling if it's done well. A Tribe Called Quest's "People's Instinctive Travels and the Paths of Rhythm" used alot of samples, but it was done well. Same goes for De La Soul's albums. DJ Shadows albums are on a whole 'nother level, he uses alot of samples, but the tracks are so complex and layered, he completely reworks them into an entirely new song.

Yeah, those that aren't capable of doing anything else.




I'm sure many of them aren't complaining. However, if I were them, I would be looking at the bigger picture. I would be looking at why my new music was not getting any airplay or selling. It wouldn't take me long to figure out the reason....because their cheap shit is hogging all the airtime. Then I would refuse to let anyone sample my music and sue them into the fires of hell if they did. Personally, I don't think I could be happy living off money that some no talent "talker" made from sampling my music. I would be too pissed because they made money and their so-called art form grew even more.

These older artists need to start looking at the bigger picture and refuse to let these new artists sample them. If it ever gets to the point that no one will let them sample their music, a lot of these so-called artists will be out of work and the doors will be open for actual music again.




That's simply a matter of opinion. There was a lot of great rap and hip hop in the 1980s but I've heard very little that was worth half a damn in the 1990s. 95 percent of it has been a slow weak beat with some talking over it. Yeah, I enjoyed 2 Live Crew, Dis N Dat, 95 South, Quad City DJs, The Dogs, MC Hammer, etc. but after a while, even jams like those get old. A change is long overdue.

vainandy said:

Beyond the fact that you don't like what they're doing, what's the problem?




Now, come on. Some of these artists weren't played on the radio BEFORE hip-hop began its dominance of the charts and the radio. Anyways, the great MC's aren't "talkers." They're storytellers and they're poets. And many times, they're writing more original material than their musician counterparts.

Was Gil Scott-Heron merely "talking" when he did "No Knock" or "Whitey On The Moon?" Were the bards of earlier ages merely "talking" when they performed their pieces?



I agree that most of the hit-pop played on the radio is garbage. But in many cases, the artists sampled appreciate the exposure.



So which statement is more defensible . . . a blanket statement that nothing good ever came from rap for 15 years made by someone who doesn't really know it that well and gets most of what he knows from the radio, or a statement that there are several artists during that time who produced great stuff from someone who actually knows hip-hop?

I don't mind you having an opinion and choosing not to patronize hip-hop, but to make statements like that, well, that's just silly, vain. Don't knock it until you really try it.

We agree that hit-pop is becoming a wasteland of nihilism and neo-minstrel buffoonery, but your opinion is less defensible than mine because I know hip-hop and you don't. If I made a blanket statement like that about the funk, you could and should laugh me out of the room.

[quote]

namepeace said:

The problem is, styles have not been allowed to change. I'm not talking about changing styles in hip hop. I'm talking about a complete style change in R&B with hip hop either going out of style or going back underground. Corporations have played the hell out of it and kept everything else out that might threaten it. A style change is long overdue and I don't care if polka makes a comeback....anything to overthrow this bullshit.

As for artists not being played on the radio before hip hop dominated, that's not true at all. The Barkays, Cameo, War, Diana Ross, and George Clinton had an album in the 1990s that received little or no airplay. These groups received massive airplay in the 1970s and 1980s. Even their weaker stuff got airplay in the 1980s. The Barkays finally sold out to the shit hop sound around the year 2000 and their song got a lot of airplay. Thankfully though, it was not a hit and I'm glad because it serves them right for selling out.

As for the rappers being storytellers or poets, that's fine. Let them tell their little stories in smoke filled cafes or wherever the hell else people go to hear poetry. The radio is for music and if they can't make music, they need to stay the hell off it.

As for you knowing hip hop and me not knowing it, I used to know it and I was very heavy into it in the 1980s. I got out of it when it turned into a bunch of stripped down "nothing". I took all mainstream R&B stations off my dial when I finally got enough of it in 1997 and haven't looked back. I have never heard of most of the new so-called artists and am proud to say that I've never heard of them.

It's not a matter of "if you don't like it, don't buy it". There's nothing good out there to buy because it exists.
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[Edited 12/17/06 12:27pm]

CinisterCee said:

That's a great analogy, Cee.

I for one enjoy both. I understand where Vainandy and where KingKrazy are coming from.
It takes a degree of skill to be an emcee. For instance (Cee, you seee this coming), I think Chuck D is a better lyricist than Prince BY A LONG SHOT and will back that up with proof if challenged, although they are different animals as writers. While I agree that technically, practically anyone can rap, as with anything not everyone is gonna be good at it much less great. Also, rappers have to write more lyrics even though writers block is less acceptable in that realm. Now, as Andy has said, there's no substitute for good, ORIGINAL music. Lately, many hip hop acts are proving poor in that department, or at least in need of serious help from real® musicians. Because of the dominance of southren rap, there's more original music out there. The downside is that it sucks. Not that rapping over a beat ala NY style was any better. There are good and bad tracks in hip-hop as with any form of music. While I do tend to lean towards the opinion that "shit-hop" (©Vainandy publishing) is the McDonalds of music, I can't deny talent when I hear it. I give respect where its due. Its not due in as many places as the artists themselves try to claim it but it is due with some artists. J Dilla was a master at musical colllages. There are others. Hip-hop can be great in doses.

ThePunisher said:

Exactly.They can't even up come up with some interesting samples that have not been used before.It's tiresome and boring.

Graycap23 said:

I agree.As long as kids keep buying this crap,the record labels are gonna keep selling it.

BlaqueKnight said:

Maybe U should TAKE your own ADVICE.

That's right. If it catches on, I want to get paid.

Well, I can't speak for the others but I'm fully aware of that and welcome change. When funk died, I was totally wrapped up into the house music scene (while it lasted). Yes, the 80s are definately over. However, my question is, when are the 90s going to be over? Next week it will be seven years into the 2000s and the 90s are still going on strong with no change in sight.

BlaqueKnight said:

If we were to judge genres on the substantive content of its output, hip-hop could hold its head level, if not high. For the artists you just mentioned. Common, Talib, Mos, Dead Prez, Paris and others also delve into substantive issues on race, class, politics, religion, etc.

I don't miss the "good old days" of the 80's. I look for those artists who can reinvent and reinterpret forms of music. And many artists out there are doing that.

I join you in wanting hip-hop to go back underground. It's like disco now; a subgenre that went mainstream and was bastardized by the media.



Those artists were all over 40, hell, touching 50, in the 1990's. You know as well as I do that older folks don't get played as much. They weren't gonna get play ANYWAY, vain.



Most of the hip-hop artists I love rock it just like that. And I'd love to see a lot of these neo-minstrels with their coonery, romanticizing jail, and worship of cars and jewelry and broken English, get knocked off the radio and let the true MCs take over again.

But you're getting mad at the artists for taking people's money. Get mad at the labels for not pushing the musicians. Get made at the kids for not giving the music a chance.



Then how you gonna speak on hip-hop for the last 15 years? That's my problem. You can't say something isn't good when you don't give it a chance.



I've got much love for you vain, and respect your music IQ greatly, but that's just your opinion and you couldn't defend it on your best day.
[Edited 12/19/06 9:11am]

Graycap23 said:

or maybe you should take my advice and quit bitching and try to help get music programs back into the schools. We have a whole generation of inner city school kids who are the future of music, arts and culture who don't even know the basics. Music stimulates right brain activity which in turn affects the creation of new ideas. Society is trying to breed intelligent drones and we are just sitting back and letting it happen. Music is a language and it should be taught like any other language and taken just as seriously.

BlaqueKnight said:

I don't disagree with U , but the whole STFU quote was a bit much, especially 4 U. It's not really your style.

Graycap23 said:

Point taken and noted. Peace.

BlaqueKnight said:

I FEEL u though.