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Van Gelder vs DuNann Yeah this may be the original East Coast (Blue Note) vs West Coast (Contemporary) thing...in terms of Jazz recording engineers.
Most folks have probably heard of Rudy Van Gelder at least through his association with the great Blue Note/CTI East Coast Jazz recordings. But what about a West Coast (Contemporary/Capitol) fellow named Roy DuNann? During a conversation with my brother, he hipped me to this discussion among audiophile types as to who was the better engineer. It seems that the de facto listening test that comes up is between 2 recordings done approximately 3 months apart with both engineers using the same rhythm section. And a stellar one indeed. 3/5 of the first Great Quintet of Miles Davis (Red Garland, Paul Chambers & Philly Joe Jones). =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Relaxin' With The Miles Davis Quintet... 
...Recorded on October 26, 1956 (except cuts 5&6). Engineered by Rudy Van Gelder RELAXIN' WITH THE MILES DAVIS QUINTET is in every way a masterpiece. When the trumpeter (1926-1991) had formed the band in 1955, his colleagues-tenor saxophonist John Coltrane, pianist Red Garland, bassist Paul Chambers, and drummer Philly Joe Jones-were not considered jazz-world A-listers. And before conquering his narcotics addiction earlier in the Fifties, Davis had seen his once-promising career go into eclipse. By 1956, however, his sound, especially when muted, was an achingly personal counterpart to the vocals of Billie Holiday and Frank Sinatra. Relaxin' (plus its Prestige companions, Miles, Cookin', Workin', and Steamin') reestablished Davis, and elevated his quintet as the gold standard of small groups. With its accent on bright tempos, from medium-bounce to crisply up, Relaxin' menains of of Davis's sunniest outings, a prime example of one of the outstanding ensembles of the 20th century reaching the summit of their artistry. ~ CD back cover notes. This is the recording where the first thing you hear is the classic Miles Davis quote, "I'll play it and tell you what it is later." Art Pepper meets The Rhythm Section... 
...Recorded on January 19, 1957. Engineered by Roy DuNann Album notes don't always tell the whole story. Contemporary president Lester Koenig, who rightly felt that Art had yet to record with musicians who were his equal, wanted to take advantage of Miles Davis's quintet being in L.A. But Pepper hadn't been playing for several months, and his horn was in a state of disrepair. To minimize anxiety, the session was kept secret from Art until the last minute. But Pepper always rose to a challenge: he taped up his dried-out cork, arrived for the date, and proceeded to record an album widely considered the most important of his career. ~ CD back cover notes. Art Pepper sidebar: For those unfamiliar with this artist, I highly suggest the following documentary...
...Art Pepper: Notes From A Jazz Survivor =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= My brother provided me with both recordings so that I could do my own listening test. I checked them out on the way to work this morning. Before I comment, has anyone here heard either or both of these recordings? tA  Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 [Edited 10/31/06 14:36pm] "Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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Relaxin' is one fantastic CD. I never got into Art Pepper. I bought one of his CDs, The Return of Art Pepper, and it didn't grab me. But thanks for the nod to DuNann. Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016
Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder | |
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I don't think I have ever heard any of DuNann's work, but Van Gelder's drum sounds are AWESOME! Mic on the kick and a stereo pair up top! Fantastic!  | |
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namepeace said: Relaxin' is one fantastic CD. I never got into Art Pepper. I bought one of his CDs, The Return of Art Pepper, and it didn't grab me. But thanks for the nod to DuNann.
That's interesting because The Rhythm Section disc is recorded around the same time period and is regarded as one of his best. Might be due to the players he's with. Supposedly after he cleaned up in the 70s he took on a harder sound if that has any bearing. tA Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 "Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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guitarslinger44 said: I don't think I have ever heard any of DuNann's work, but Van Gelder's drum sounds are AWESOME! Mic on the kick and a stereo pair up top! Fantastic!
DuNann is one of these mythical characters within the audiophile crowd. The odd thing is that there is no detailed information on this cat anywhere. Just word of mouth and references to his work amongst the propellor-head set. I keep reading about this one interview that was done with him by Stereophile magazine (April 2002). You should check out the drum sound on The Rhythm Section disc. I believe he was a minimalist-mic man also. tA Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 "Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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Some limited info on Roy DuNann:
Do you have a favorite recording engineer?... http://cgi.stereophile.co...te.cgi?462 ...Stereophile.com (May 2006) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Recording technique continues to amaze... http://www.jsonline.com/s...x?id=63412 ...Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (August 2002) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The Rudy Van Gelder "Sound"... http://www.stevehoffman.t...-3230.html ...Steve Hoffman Forums (April 2002) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Sinatra Captiol 20 & 24-Bit Masters... http://www.stevehoffman.t...5-p-2.html ...Steve Hoffman Forums (March 2002) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Info on Contemporary Records: Cool California Jazz... http://www.npr.org/templa...Id=3622017 ...NPR.org (October 2006) tA Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 "Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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^^Thanks for all of that tA!  | |
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guitarslinger44 said: ^^Thanks for all of that tA!
You're welcome. I just wish there was more info on this guy. Maybe i'll have to run down that Stereophile interview. tA Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 "Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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After listening to both discs, I have to say the Roy DuNann disc (*Art Pepper meets The Rhythm Section) beats the Rudy Van Gelder disc (**Relaxin' With The Miles Davis Quintet) by a knockout.
Keep in mind that i'm talking about the recording and not the performances (although there's something to be said about that also). The DuNann disc sounds more present and is a much more muscular recording. This is all the more amazing as DuNann has a penchant for sending the "leader" to the left channel and the rest of the band to the right channel. Generally, when this is done the recording sounds small and and the musicians isolated. Not so in this case. During these debates someone described the difference in discs as the difference in listening to AM vs FM. To make sure this wasn't a fluke or I was being influenced by what i'd read, I checked out another DuNann engineered recording... 
...For Real! Same stereo imaging (Hampton Hawes in the left channel and the band in the right) but maintained the presence and muscle of the Art Pepper disc. It's really is a shame that there's not more info on Roy DuNann. Another person you won't get detail on until he's dead and gone. * OJCCD-338-2 (re-released in 1991) Remastered in 1988 by Phil De Lancie ** PRCD-8104-2 (re-released in 2006) Remastered in 2005 by Rudy Van Gelder tA Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 "Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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see, ive always been an Van gelder fan, simply because i dig his recording style and it sounds ballsy and clean. | |
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IAintTheOne said: see, ive always been an Van gelder fan, simply because i dig his recording style and it sounds ballsy and clean.
I still dig the Van Gelder recordings but this guy DuNann I was totally unaware of until my brother brought him up. And sure enough, he's giving Rudy a run for his money. tA Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 "Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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