jayaredee said:

Oh... well that makes me feel better in a way... like I might be one of your friends. lol Cool. See we can all get along even though we don't agree!

Oh... by the way, go back and read my post that you quoted, I said "not necessarily you." So I wasn't really addressing you with some of my generalizations.

homophobia alive and well

Isel said:

See we both make mistakes, i didn't see that written.

I've seen posts by you before and you seem like a very pleasant individual. And i don't agree with all my girlfriends, so it's quite a common situation.

Isel tell me, do you have any gay friends?

jayaredee said:

Well yeah!!!! Of course I do. I have a couple of very close gay-couple who have been together longer than I've been married. They're not so much pop-music fans, though. A little, but not much. I also have other gay friends with whom I worked with in theatre. We have lost contact with each other, though except for the occasional update! lol

ehuffnsd said:

Where did this come from hun?

Isel said:

That's cool. How does your husband take to your gay friends? I have a friend and i can tell her husband is a little put off/ scared of me. I think it's natural for straight men to be a little off guarded by gay men, but i enjoy unity among all divisions.
Sorry, my english is failing me right now, lol.

jayaredee said:

Sorry guys for being off-topic, but husband has never had a problem with my friends. We have been to dinner, parties. We have talked about taking trips together... That NEVER happens just due to life and scheduling, but maybe one day.

My husband met me while I was still performing... I did a lot of regional theatre. So he was introduced to the theatre/dance world. He loved it, and the energy. He is an artist of sorts, soooo he understands that creative world.
Plus, his favorite uncle was gay... so he doesn't have an issue with someone's sexual orientation.

jayaredee said:

This started on the Kylie Minogue thread.Another orger ('whoknows') dismissed Madonna and Kylie,saying "Maybe you have to be gay to get it".Apparently,some folks got offended by that comment and see it as a homophobic statement.

DavidEye said:

Well there's no denying these women have huge gay fanbases but they certainly have a lot of straight fans despite the stereotype.

Just as i know a lot of gay people that enjoy death metal and can't stand any sort of pop act.

From an Uk newspaper, posted at http://www.madonnavillage...php?t=8863

jayaredee said:

it's directed more at whoknows than anyone. he just rubbed me the wrong way.

Badujunkie as long as your posts keep putting a smile on my face I don't care what you are. As for Isel being a woman that explains her "argue and reconcile at the same time" approach. Does that make me sexist for saying that? No. For the record, I think women are the superior sex and the world would be a much better, more stable place if they were in charge. This is one of many reasons why the Madges, Beyonces and JJs of this world bother me. They represent a very narrow vision of womanhood. Young girls are told to aspire to this. I'm a heterosexual man, but do you think I appreciate having Beyonce shake her ass at the camera in every video? No, I don't
In the past I've said things like, "People under the age of 14 shouldn't be allowed to buy records 'cos they fuck up the charts for the rest of us". Are you gonna take that dead serious and call me kidaphobic?.

VoicesCarry said:

Thank you. She's always getting criticism. I even posted an article in one of the threads about Coachella.

Since her album has been released there's been a whole slew of nasty articles. I don't know why people think nobody picks her apart.

ehuffnsd said:

Okay, this homopophobe thing. I apologise if my tone offended you guys. It was late at night. I was bored and just typing the first thing that came into my head. I don't apologise for the gist of what I was saying though. When I said "Maybe you have to be gay to get it" I was referring specifically to Kylie's stage show. Her singing hurt my ears and all those dancers running around just struck me as silly. Then I realised I wasn't meant to like it because it wasn't aimed at me. It was aimed at gay men (and maybe little girls who don't notice the gay overtones). I had to wonder what it was about this stuff that so many gay men find appealing. As I was typing I flashed back to a scene with 2 gay musicians I used to know who were bitching about other gay mens' taste in music. At the time I was too young to know what they meant. I always just presumed that, apart from the fact that they're attracted to the same sex, gay people were the same as straight people. I now know this isn't strictly true.
Maybe the reason you misunderstand me is 'cos I say things that decorum and political correctness would stop other people saying. I couldn't care less about decorum and political correctness.

jayaredee said:

It would be nice if you properly read my posts before responding. I said she doesn't get SERIOUS critcicism and when she does get criticised it's always "on the wrong terms". I've read negative articles about Madonna and they always miss the point ie, her shit music, tours, taking credit for other peoples' work, and most importantly, what her success tells us about the machinations of the music industry and our culture in general, but as I said earlier, if you're looking for discussion that doesn't just skim the surface this is the wrong place to come, so I'll leave it there.

whoknows said:

pretty much sexist, and now ageist!

CinisterCee said:

lol, this guy is too much

jayaredee said:

I think CinisterCee was joking!

AND FINALLY! Since I never intend to visit one of these threads for the rest of my life, some good clean Madonna bashing to piss you bitches off some more. HU was No. 1 for 4 weeks here(UK). You couldn't get away from that song if you wanted to. It is an absolutely awful song and I can't help but blaming you guys for the torture. You have a lot of spending power and many of you seem to enjoy being condescended to. Her career was in trouble. She snapped her fingers. You came running. On the plus side, her drunken grandma dancing in the party scene of the video gave me the biggest laugh of the year.
Also, am I the only person who was offended by the way she treated that black dancer in IGTTYAS? Commanding him to perform ("The audition's not over yet!"), then patting him on the back and telling him to "Go braid your fucking hair!" And telling them how to vote. If I was one of them I'd vote Bush just to fuck her up. They probably did. That's probably why he won.
Before you ask why was I watching it, I try to watch anything music related. I can't stand Franz Ferdinand, but I tried to watch a documentary on them this week but it was too boring, just like IGTTYAS. In both cases I started but didn't finish. Goodbye.

Also, am I the only person who was offended by the way she treated that black dancer in IGTTYAS? Commanding him to perform ("The audition's not over yet!"), then patting him on the back and telling him to "Go braid your fucking hair!" And telling them how to vote. If I was one of them I'd vote Bush just to fuck her up. They probably did. That's probably why he won.

whoknows said:

I don't understand why certain individuals persist in posting such mindless shit.
Maybe you have to be straight to understand their motivation.

Badujunkie as long as your posts keep putting a smile on my face I don't care what you are. As for Isel being a woman that explains her "argue and reconcile at the same time" approach. Does that make me sexist for saying that? No. For the record, I think women are the superior sex and the world would be a much better, more stable place if they were in charge. This is one of many reasons why the Madges, Beyonces and JJs of this world bother me. They represent a very narrow vision of womanhood. Young girls are told to aspire to this. I'm a heterosexual man, but do you think I appreciate having Beyonce shake her ass at the camera in every video? No, I don't
In the past I've said things like, "People under the age of 14 shouldn't be allowed to buy records 'cos they fuck up the charts for the rest of us". Are you gonna take that dead serious and call me kidaphobic?.

heartbeatocean said:

Are you implying that I have a problem with a success? You don't even know me. But I assure you I have NO PROBLEM with success. NONE. And I'm not jealous of Madonna. Why should I be jealous of Madonna? I have very good life. Madonna has NOTHING that I would want. I just have a problem with Madonna's hypocrisy.

Also, for the record, believe me I'm no homophobe since someone else also made that implication.

This is what I don't understand about message boards. Why does a discussion always have to become personal? I cited a couple of examples to support my opinion, but no one takes issue with those. No one tries to explain Madonna's actions, but they try to tell my about myself when they know more about Madonna than they would ever know about me. Why can't a person just have a criticism of an artist? Hey, I didn't say that her fans were stupid for supporting her which she has said--unintentionally I'm sure--about American fans through over-generalization because she didn't think before opening her mouth.

As as far as analyzing, I wrote a little essay about that, so I'm not even gonna repeat myself. Suffice to say, this is a non-Prince music message board, and someone posted an article about Madonna to which I responded because it indirectly confirmed some of my observations about her. Isn't this about discussion?

Fine, you don't have to agree with my opinions people. No problem. But don't attack me and then jump to conclusions about me or anyone else who dares to criticize Madonna. I'm not attacking success. I'm not attacking gays. I am just not overly-impressed with Madonna.

And just for the record, I engage in my share of political discussions as well. I do worry about dropping bombs on people. I worry about the porverty in this country. I worry about the hypocrisy in this country. I do worry about the direction the U.S. has been taking for a while. I've expressed my views on those topics here and elsewhere. But what does my interest in politics and law have to do with Madonna, and the points that I made about her?
[Edited 5/9/06 5:17am]

Isel said:

I've seen these arguments again and again, so I am noticing a trend among people on the board and reactions I've seen from my friends and even myself that Madonna provokes. She can be intimidating and many people are uncomfortable with her level of success and antagonistic to it. If you want to wrap yourself up into my response and get defensive, fine.

But it does seem like you have some kind of problem with her taking opportunities. Opportunist? Of course, she's opportunist. How would she have become a big pop star otherwise? That's like saying rain water is wet. Why is that a bad thing?

Also, I have no idea what you are saying when you call her hypocritical. Can you please break this down? I'm not attacking, I'm simply curious what you mean by that.

Isel said:

Okay,I will address one of your criticisms.Madonna has made hypocritical comments in the past.She speaks against materialism and greed,yet she charges $350 to see her in concert.This has always been a problem with me.I've never said she is perfect.But in the end,I don't care about that.Madonna is not a politician.She doesn't owe me anything.If I think she is a shallow,conceited,phony,hypocrital bitch,I have the option of not buying her CDs or going to her concerts.I can just ignore her.That's really the point I was trying to make.

I think Isel means (I could be wrong) that Madonna is full of contradictions in her image and what she preaches. Like "don't be materialistic"...but here I am charging 350 a pop for concert tix so I can spend 100 grand a year on Pilates sessions. She also claims to be always having a message...yet with her "AL" video she pulled it at the last minute when her message was the strongest and most relevant it's probably ever been. She also used to profess safe sex and AIDS awareness...but then was so sexually promiscuous in her image with the "Sex" book. There are a ton of paradoxical and contradicting images/messages in her career history and it can be interpreted that she is a hypocrite in that sense.

Hey Heartbeatocean....you coming out here for the San Jose shows?