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PrintableI was glad to read what Isel said because everything he said is what I think . Unfortunately I don't have the patience to type out such eloquent posts myself.The reason Madonna bothers me is because I'm a music lover and there are so many better people who don't get the recognition. I wouldn't expect you guys to understand, but it's very unjust.
Also, she seems to be immune from serious criticism. When she does get criticised it's usually on the wrong terms. This reflects the state of the media in general. Bob Dylan said that by the 80s, "Music journalists had become nothing more than public relations staff." This still applies to the whole entertainment media. No one ever says that 50 Cent is a pedestrian rapper or that Alicia Keys is a pale imitation of past soul greats. This is why the internet is valuable. But I guess if you want serious discussion/criticism this probably isn't the place to go looking for it. By the way badujunkie I think you're a cool chick even if I disagree with you on most things . You and vainandy write the most entertaining posts. | |
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whoknows said: I was glad to read what Isel said because everything he said is what I think . Unfortunately I don't have the patience to type out such eloquent posts myself.The reason Madonna bothers me is because I'm a music lover and there are so many better people who don't get the recognition. I wouldn't expect you guys to understand, but it's very unjust.
Also, she seems to be immune from serious criticism. When she does get criticised it's usually on the wrong terms. This reflects the state of the media in general. Bob Dylan said that by the 80s, "Music journalists had become nothing more than public relations staff." This still applies to the whole entertainment media. No one ever says that 50 Cent is a pedestrian rapper or that Alicia Keys is a pale imitation of past soul greats. This is why the internet is valuable. But I guess if you want serious discussion/criticism this probably isn't the place to go looking for it. By the way badujunkie I think you're a cool chick even if I disagree with you on most things . You and vainandy write the most entertaining posts. Some clarifications: 1. Isel is a chick 
2. badujunkie is a dude
3. If you think Madonna is immune to criticism, you simply haven't been following her career closely. | |
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whoknows said: I was glad to read what Isel said because everything he said is what I think . Unfortunately I don't have the patience to type out such eloquent posts myself.The reason Madonna bothers me is because I'm a music lover and there are so many better people who don't get the recognition. I wouldn't expect you guys to understand, but it's very unjust.
Also, she seems to be immune from serious criticism. When she does get criticised it's usually on the wrong terms. This reflects the state of the media in general. Bob Dylan said that by the 80s, "Music journalists had become nothing more than public relations staff." This still applies to the whole entertainment media. No one ever says that 50 Cent is a pedestrian rapper or that Alicia Keys is a pale imitation of past soul greats. This is why the internet is valuable. But I guess if you want serious discussion/criticism this probably isn't the place to go looking for it. By the way badujunkie I think you're a cool chick even if I disagree with you on most things . You and vainandy write the most entertaining posts. Thank ya. And hopefully you think I'm just as cool now that you know I have balls. I'll leave it alone babe...just be me | |
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homophobia alive and well You CANNOT use the name of God, or religion, to justify acts of violence, to hurt, to hate, to discriminate- Madonna
authentic power is service- Pope Francis | |
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jayaredee said: Isel said: I edited my earlier post about Janet. I could ATTEMPT to prove my point further, but I would rather just agree to disagree. For me, it's just more complex than calling her a "fake." It's more about being opportunistic. Any person in business is an opportunist, how does a business thrive? Madonna is one of the few pop stars that has control over her career and all aspects of it in terms of marketing, promotion etc. People have such issues with success. Because someone is successful, they are called "opportunistic". Like success is something to be ashamed of, something evil, something baaaaad. Why don't we worry about hypocritical politicians dropping bombs on innocent people being opportunistic? Or any number of real evils on the planet. Madonna is so successful, she's scary. I think a lot of people are simply downright jealous. | |
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ehuffnsd said: homophobia alive and well
huh? I'll leave it alone babe...just be me | |
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Isel said: Sounds like she's a workaholic and a control freak.
I admire her as a music-video artist and theatrical performer. However, she annoys me mainly because very rarely does anyone ever challenge her hypocrisy or take her to task. Yeah, yeah... some may have tried, but no one ever really takes those challenges seriously. Madonna always seems to come-out unscathed. I dunno. There is just something about Madonna that I don't find genuine, and that goes for this spiritual evolvement as well as her music. Madonna is a marketing machine. She doesn't really stand for anything while professing that she stands for something. She's an opportunist, period. She stands for whatever is going to best promote her. She gives the public what they want to hear and see, but somehow people view it as risk-taking or original when the truth is she is playing it safe. She's really a genuis at self-promotion. Nonetheless, I think she is way over-rated as an artist with any sort of depth. She just morphs into what will keep her in the game. Yeah, I have Confessions, but haven't played it for a couple a months. It's ok. I just don't think it's this amazing cd either. It's sort of middle of the road, trying to appeal to the broadest market. Agreed. I can´t understand how you can be "sex machine, geisha, soldier, Evita, and dance-floor queen" and be geniune in all those roles. Ane even if some of those "parts" might not be shocking themselves they are shocking because of what or who she was prior to that. And it´s true that I hardly ever come across a negative article about her that would question her, which is weird. Maybe I feel this way, cause my two favoute artists are Mj, who has been ridiculed beyond the acceptable as his contribution to the world was zero and Prince who is basically ignored as if he didn´t exist - at least in my coutry, while Madonna has always been presented as the number one in everything! BTW, as for her last album. I couldn not even tell the difference between the fourth and the fifth song on the album. [Edited 5/9/06 1:04am] "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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heartbeatocean said: jayaredee said: Any person in business is an opportunist, how does a business thrive? Madonna is one of the few pop stars that has control over her career and all aspects of it in terms of marketing, promotion etc. People have such issues with success. Because someone is successful, they are called "opportunistic". Like success is something to be ashamed of, something evil, something baaaaad. Why don't we worry about hypocritical politicians dropping bombs on innocent people being opportunistic? Or any number of real evils on the planet. Madonna is so successful, she's scary. I think a lot of people are simply downright jealous. I agree with this.Many people resent Madonna because she is successful and has been for a long time.They don't think that she's talented and that she doesn't deserve her success.They feel that there are other,more talented artists who deserve the success and recognition that Madonna gets.They expected her to fade away after one or two albums,but it didn't happen. | |
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dag said: Isel said: Sounds like she's a workaholic and a control freak.
I admire her as a music-video artist and theatrical performer. However, she annoys me mainly because very rarely does anyone ever challenge her hypocrisy or take her to task. Yeah, yeah... some may have tried, but no one ever really takes those challenges seriously. Madonna always seems to come-out unscathed. I dunno. There is just something about Madonna that I don't find genuine, and that goes for this spiritual evolvement as well as her music. Madonna is a marketing machine. She doesn't really stand for anything while professing that she stands for something. She's an opportunist, period. She stands for whatever is going to best promote her. She gives the public what they want to hear and see, but somehow people view it as risk-taking or original when the truth is she is playing it safe. She's really a genuis at self-promotion. Nonetheless, I think she is way over-rated as an artist with any sort of depth. She just morphs into what will keep her in the game. Yeah, I have Confessions, but haven't played it for a couple a months. It's ok. I just don't think it's this amazing cd either. It's sort of middle of the road, trying to appeal to the broadest market. Agreed. I can´t understand how you can be "sex machine, geisha, soldier, Evita, and dance-floor queen" and be geniune in all those roles. Ane even if some of those "parts" might not be shocking themselves they are shocking because of what or who she was prior to that. And it´s true that I hardly ever come across a negative article about her that would question her, which is weird. Maybe I feel this way, cause my two favoute artists are Mj, who has been ridiculed beyond the acceptable as his contribution to the world was zero and Prince who is basically ignored as if he didn´t exist - at least in my coutry, while Madonna has always been the number one in everything! BTW, as for her last album. I couldn not even tell the difference between the fourth and the fifth song on the album. Dag...MJ is ridiculed because of obvious reasons.When you bleach your skin,have sleepovers with young boys,and dangle a baby over a hotel balcony,the media isn't going to give you a pat on the back.Yes,MJ has made some amazing contributions to pop music,but sadly,none of that matters anymore.The music becomes secondary.This is what happens when you self-destruct.The same thing is happening to Whitney Houston. | |
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dag said: as for her last album. I couldn not even tell the difference between the fourth and the fifth song on the album.
but yet you think 'Invincible' is a classic  | |
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Isel said: Sounds like she's a workaholic and a control freak.
I admire her as a music-video artist and theatrical performer. However, she annoys me mainly because very rarely does anyone ever challenge her hypocrisy or take her to task. Yeah, yeah... some may have tried, but no one ever really takes those challenges seriously. Madonna always seems to come-out unscathed. I dunno.There is just something about Madonna that I don't find genuine, and that goes for this spiritual evolvement as well as her music. Madonna is a marketing machine.She doesn't really stand for anything while professing that she stands for something. She's an opportunist, period. She stands for whatever is going to best promote her. She gives the public what they want to hear and see, but somehow people view it as risk-taking or original when the truth is she is playing it safe. She's really a genuis at self-promotion. Nonetheless, I think she is way over-rated as an artist with any sort of depth. She just morphs into what will keep her in the game.Yeah, I have Confessions, but haven't played it for a couple a months. It's ok. I just don't think it's this amazing cd either. It's sort of middle of the road, trying to appeal to the broadest market. see,this is exactly what I am talking about when I said that some people tend to over-analyze things.It's only pop music,people! As I said before,Madonna is a pop/dance music artist who makes music that many people enjoy.It's not any more complicated than that.I really don't care one bit "what she stands for",what her spiritual beliefs are,or any of that other nonsense.I enjoy her CDs,I have a great time at her concerts,and I collect her remixes.I don't spend my time wondering what she stands for,what she believes in,etc.That's her personal life anyway and it doesn't concern me.I can't see why you even care about this. Another thing: people on this site always say that Madonna is a "marketing genuis",a "great businesswoman",blah blah blah.I agree that she is,but I also think that,in the competitive world of pop music,that's not a bad thing to be at all.If Madonna didn't have the smart businness sense that she has,we wouldn't even be talking about her right now.She would have faded away after "Borderline".She would be on one of those "where are they now"-type shows....a forgotten has-been/one-hit wonder.But look at where she's at: 24 years years after her first hit,she can still take a new CD to Number One.She's getting ready to launch her latest tour,which will no doubt be one of year's most successful. | |
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whoknows said: I was glad to read what Isel said because everything he said is what I think . Unfortunately I don't have the patience to type out such eloquent posts myself.The reason Madonna bothers me is because I'm a music lover and there are so many better people who don't get the recognition. I wouldn't expect you guys to understand, but it's very unjust.
Also, she seems to be immune from serious criticism. When she does get criticised it's usually on the wrong terms. This reflects the state of the media in general. Bob Dylan said that by the 80s, "Music journalists had become nothing more than public relations staff." This still applies to the whole entertainment media. No one ever says that 50 Cent is a pedestrian rapper or that Alicia Keys is a pale imitation of past soul greats. This is why the internet is valuable. But I guess if you want serious discussion/criticism this probably isn't the place to go looking for it. I pointed out in another post that many people resent Madonna because they feel that there are other,more talented artists that deserve the same level of recognition and success.Many people hold a grudge against her because of this,and in a way,I completely understand it.I'm always complaining that Jamiroquai (one of my favorite bands) doesn't get the recognition and attention that they truly deserve. | |
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badujunkie said: Isel said: I'm sure she does love it and the industry because both have taken her to where she wanted to be. She started-out as a dancer. She didn't pursue music from an early age. In fact, didn't she try to get into to acting BEFORE being successful in music? Sure she may have written poetry or written in a journal, but a lot of people do the same thing for peace of mind without going into the music business. I know A LOT of people will disagree with me because to them Madonna can do no wrong. I'm not suggesting that she is not grateful for her music career and her fans... although she has made a couple of comments about Americans being dumb during the Reinvention Tour that I didn't appreciate. Of course, she made those comments while in London, so there ya go. Hey, her dumb American fans just made her Reinvention Tour a success, paying a pretty steep price just to see her. Also she has made these comments about television being full of junk, but at the same time, she has contributed to that junk,sooooo She has no problem with people, particularly kids on MTV, watching her junk, I guess. I would say that's sort of biting the hand that feeds her. Like I said, that pretentious sort of attitude really, really annoys me. For not being a fan of hers you and whoknows both sure spend a lot of time analyzing her. It seems you have animosity toward her as a person or more how YOU PERCEIVE her as a person. I go by music and performance. She makes great pop albums (imo) and puts on great shows (imo). I could give a fuck if she's a kind or pretentious person. Badujunkie,this is exactly how I feel!! It's amazing how so many people who don't even really like Madonna,seem to over-analyze her every move.It's weird to me.When I don't like an artist,I just simply ignore them. And with Madonna,I don't really care whether she is "pretentious" or not.When I listen to her music,I'm not even focusing on things like that.I'm simply enjoying the music.I don't know her personally and I probably never will. | |
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heartbeatocean said: jayaredee said: Any person in business is an opportunist, how does a business thrive? Madonna is one of the few pop stars that has control over her career and all aspects of it in terms of marketing, promotion etc. People have such issues with success. Because someone is successful, they are called "opportunistic". Like success is something to be ashamed of, something evil, something baaaaad. Why don't we worry about hypocritical politicians dropping bombs on innocent people being opportunistic? Or any number of real evils on the planet. Madonna is so successful, she's scary. I think a lot of people are simply downright jealous. Are you implying that I have a problem with a success? You don't even know me. But I assure you I have NO PROBLEM with success. NONE. And I'm not jealous of Madonna. Why should I be jealous of Madonna? I have very good life. Madonna has NOTHING that I would want. I just have a problem with Madonna's hypocrisy. Also, for the record, believe me I'm no homophobe since someone else also made that implication. This is what I don't understand about message boards. Why does a discussion always have to become personal? I cited a couple of examples to support my opinion, but no one takes issue with those. No one tries to explain Madonna's actions, but they try to tell my about myself when they know more about Madonna than they would ever know about me. Why can't a person just have a criticism of an artist? Hey, I didn't say that her fans were stupid for supporting her which she has said--unintentionally I'm sure--about American fans through over-generalization because she didn't think before opening her mouth. As as far as analyzing, I wrote a little essay about that, so I'm not even gonna repeat myself. Suffice to say, this is a non-Prince music message board, and someone posted an article about Madonna to which I responded because it indirectly confirmed some of my observations about her. Isn't this about discussion? Fine, you don't have to agree with my opinions people. No problem. But don't attack me and then jump to conclusions about me or anyone else who dares to criticize Madonna. I'm not attacking success. I'm not attacking gays. I am just not overly-impressed with Madonna. And just for the record, I engage in my share of political discussions as well. I do worry about dropping bombs on people. I worry about the porverty in this country. I worry about the hypocrisy in this country. I do worry about the direction the U.S. has been taking for a while. I've expressed my views on those topics here and elsewhere. But what does my interest in politics and law have to do with Madonna, and the points that I made about her? [Edited 5/9/06 5:17am] | |
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Isel,I don't think anyone is "attacking" you on this thread.I actually think this is one of the more civil discussions we've had on Madonna in a long time,lol.There's no flaming,no arguing...just a bunch of different opinions being voiced and that's fine.Heartbeatocean didn't say that YOU were jealous of Madonna,she said that "some people" are.As for the "homophobe" thing,that whole thing started because of a comment another Orger ('whoknows') made on the Kylie Minogue thread.No one here is indicating that YOU are a homophobe.
You have a right to your opinions.No one is stopping you from voicing your opinion.But folks are allowed to disagree with you,and challenge something that you say.There is no "right and wrong" in this.We just view things differently.As long as we don't start flaming each other and saying "Fuck you!",then everything is fine,lol. | |
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DavidEye said: Isel,I don't think anyone is "attacking" you on this thread.I actually think this is one of the more civil discussions we've had on Madonna in a long time,lol.There's no flaming,no arguing...just a bunch of different opinions being voiced and that's fine.Heartbeatocean didn't say that YOU were jealous of Madonna,she said that "some people" are.As for the "homophobe" thing,that whole thing started because of a comment another Orger ('whoknows') made on the Kylie Minogue thread.No one here is indicating that YOU are a homophobe.
You have a right to your opinions.No one is stopping you from voicing your opinion.But folks are allowed to disagree with you,and challenge something that you say.There is no "right and wrong" in this.We just view things differently.As long as we don't start flaming each other and saying "Fuck you!",then everything is fine,lol. How convenient using the qualifier "some." Well you quoted me in regard to over-analyzing, right? I think the person who made the reference to having a problem with success quoted me as well, correct? I'll have to look again... Yes, heartbeatocean quoted me, soooo I would that his/her criticism was directed at me. But even if that were not the case, none of you have addressed the specific examples which I pointed-out. So whether I've been personally attacked or not, this whole discussion and others as well becomes about the critics having a "problem" themselves, so the issue is not Madonna. Yeah, this discussion has been civil--no one is resorting to name-calling. But then again, the specific criticisms/complaints about Madonna have been completely ignored because are too busy analyzing each other. That's the point I'm trying to make. P.S. I never said that I didn't have the right to my opinions. I know I have the right to my opinions just as you have the right to yours. Hey, I don't have any problem with people disgreeing with me. I very easily can just agree to disagree unless someone makes a very good point that might make me think about my opinion. But that rarely happens because some fans never really argue the issues. My complaint is that more often than not, discussions about artists become personal to a small or maybe large degree. [Edited 5/9/06 5:49am] | |
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VoicesCarry said: 3. If you think Madonna is immune to criticism, you simply haven't been following her career closely. Thank you. She's always getting criticism. I even posted an article in one of the threads about Coachella. Since her album has been released there's been a whole slew of nasty articles. I don't know why people think nobody picks her apart. There have been many threads discussing the same things Isel is claiming we don't pick out. | |
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Isel said: DavidEye said: Isel,I don't think anyone is "attacking" you on this thread.I actually think this is one of the more civil discussions we've had on Madonna in a long time,lol.There's no flaming,no arguing...just a bunch of different opinions being voiced and that's fine.Heartbeatocean didn't say that YOU were jealous of Madonna,she said that "some people" are.As for the "homophobe" thing,that whole thing started because of a comment another Orger ('whoknows') made on the Kylie Minogue thread.No one here is indicating that YOU are a homophobe.
You have a right to your opinions.No one is stopping you from voicing your opinion.But folks are allowed to disagree with you,and challenge something that you say.There is no "right and wrong" in this.We just view things differently.As long as we don't start flaming each other and saying "Fuck you!",then everything is fine,lol. How convenient using the qualifier "some." Well you quoted me right in regard to over-analyzing, right? I think the person who made the reference to having a problem with success quoted me as well, correct? I'll have to look again... Yes, daq quoted me, soooo I would that his/her criticism was directed at me. But even if that were not the case, none of you have addressed the specific examples which I pointed-out. So whether I've been personally attacked or not, this whole discussion and others as well becomes about the critics having a "problem" themselves, so the issue is not Madonna. Yeah, discussion has been civil--no one is resorting to name-calling. But then again, the specific criticisms/complaints about Madonna have been completely ignored because are too busy analyzing each other. That's the point I'm trying to make. I get your point,but actually,Dag was agreeing with you.He wasn't criticizing you at all.Go back and read what he wrote.As for the specific points that you addressed...I made it very clear what I think about it.Although Madonna is one of my favorite artists,I just don't care that deeply about the other things that people/the media obsess over (her spiritual beliefs....her hypocritical statements...etc).I just enjoy her music and her concerts.I have my own life to lead.But honestly,I respect your opinion and for the most part,I think this discussion has been very interesting.Sorry if you don't feel the same way. | |
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jayaredee said: VoicesCarry said: 3. If you think Madonna is immune to criticism, you simply haven't been following her career closely. Thank you. She's always getting criticism. I even posted an article in one of the threads about Coachella. Since her album has been released there's been a whole slew of nasty articles. I don't know why people think nobody picks her apart. There have been many threads discussing the same things Isel is claiming we don't pick out. It's absurd that some people think Madonna doesn't get criticized.Critics have been dismissing her from day one and even now,the media still treats her like shit.She doesn't get the "free pass" that so many people assume she gets. | |
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jayaredee said: VoicesCarry said: 3. If you think Madonna is immune to criticism, you simply haven't been following her career closely. Thank you. She's always getting criticism. I even posted an article in one of the threads about Coachella. Since her album has been released there's been a whole slew of nasty articles. I don't know why people think nobody picks her apart. There have been many threads discussing the same things Isel is claiming we don't pick out. Then why don't you fans enlighten me rather than telling me that I have a problem with success or that I'm over analyzing (not you necessarily)? I haven't see those threads. What have her fans said about Madonna's hypocrisy? I read one fan's opinion on this thread that at least acknowledged my point-of-view--at least understood where I was coming from. But everyone else is too busy dismissing those of us who just shared a critical opinion. This thread is relatively long. If there have been past comments that have addressed the my criticism, with examples, then why not share those than making it be about me? I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think that was called for. I didn't have to respond-- I thought very seriously about not responding and just letting it go. But then again, I didn't criticize anyone here except Madonna, and I would appreciate the same consideration. | |
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DavidEye said: Isel said: How convenient using the qualifier "some." Well you quoted me right in regard to over-analyzing, right? I think the person who made the reference to having a problem with success quoted me as well, correct? I'll have to look again... Yes, daq quoted me, soooo I would that his/her criticism was directed at me. But even if that were not the case, none of you have addressed the specific examples which I pointed-out. So whether I've been personally attacked or not, this whole discussion and others as well becomes about the critics having a "problem" themselves, so the issue is not Madonna. Yeah, discussion has been civil--no one is resorting to name-calling. But then again, the specific criticisms/complaints about Madonna have been completely ignored because are too busy analyzing each other. That's the point I'm trying to make. I get your point,but actually,Dag was agreeing with you.He wasn't criticizing you at all.Go back and read what he wrote.As for the specific points that you addressed...I made it very clear what I think about it.Although Madonna is one of my favorite artists,I just don't care that deeply about the other things that people/the media obsess over (her spiritual beliefs....her hypocritical statements...etc).I just enjoy her music and her concerts.I have my own life to lead.But honestly,I respect your opinion and for the most part,I think this discussion has been very interesting.Sorry if you don't feel the same way. Oh yes, it was actually "heartbeatocean," not Daq. So Daq, if you are reading this, I apologize for the incorrect reference. I'll go back and edit. And you don't have to be sorry. I think many of you have missed that I said that I appreciate her as an performer. I understand why she has fans. I was just addressing some concerns that I had with her. This thread didn't seem like an "I love Madonna," thread. The article itself was critical, so I just present my point of view. I didn't ruin any positive vibe in this thread. I and other were just responding to the tone of the article. [Edited 5/9/06 5:52am] | |
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Isel said: jayaredee said: Thank you. She's always getting criticism. I even posted an article in one of the threads about Coachella. Since her album has been released there's been a whole slew of nasty articles. I don't know why people think nobody picks her apart. There have been many threads discussing the same things Isel is claiming we don't pick out. Then why don't you fans enlighten me rather than telling me that I have a problem with success or that I'm over analyzing (not you necessarily)? I haven't see those threads. What have her fans said about Madonna's hypocrisy? I read one fan's opinion on this thread that at least acknowledged my point-of-view--at least understood where I was coming from. But everyone else is too busy dismissing those of us who just shared a critical opinion. This thread is relatively long. If there have been past comments that have addressed the my criticism, with examples, then why not share those than making it be about me? I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think that was called for. I didn't have to respond-- I thought very seriously about not responding and just letting it go. But then again, I didn't criticize anyone here except Madonna, and I would appreciate the same consideration. Okay,I will address one of your criticisms.Madonna has made hypocritical comments in the past.She speaks against materialism and greed,yet she charges $350 to see her in concert.This has always been a problem with me.I've never said she is perfect.But in the end,I don't care about that.Madonna is not a politician.She doesn't owe me anything.If I think she is a shallow,conceited,phony,hypocrital bitch,I have the option of not buying her CDs or going to her concerts.I can just ignore her.That's really the point I was trying to make. | |
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Isel said: DavidEye said: I get your point,but actually,Dag was agreeing with you.He wasn't criticizing you at all.Go back and read what he wrote.As for the specific points that you addressed...I made it very clear what I think about it.Although Madonna is one of my favorite artists,I just don't care that deeply about the other things that people/the media obsess over (her spiritual beliefs....her hypocritical statements...etc).I just enjoy her music and her concerts.I have my own life to lead.But honestly,I respect your opinion and for the most part,I think this discussion has been very interesting.Sorry if you don't feel the same way. Oh yes, it was actually "heartbeatocean," not Daq. So Daq, if you are reading this, I apologize for the incorrect reference. I'll go back and edit. And you don't have to be sorry. I think many of you have missed that I said that I appreciate her as an performer. I understand why she has fans. I was just addressing some concerns that I had with her. This thread didn't seem like an "I love Madonna," thread. The article itself was critical, so I just present my point of view. I didn't ruin any positive vibe in this thread. I and other were just responding to the tone of the article. No problem. | |
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Isel said: jayaredee said: Thank you. She's always getting criticism. I even posted an article in one of the threads about Coachella. Since her album has been released there's been a whole slew of nasty articles. I don't know why people think nobody picks her apart. There have been many threads discussing the same things Isel is claiming we don't pick out. Then why don't you fans enlighten me rather than telling me that I have a problem with success or that I'm over analyzing (not you necessarily)? I haven't see those threads. What have her fans said about Madonna's hypocrisy? I read one fan's opinion on this thread that at least acknowledged my point-of-view--at least understood where I was coming from. But everyone else is too busy dismissing those of us who just shared a critical opinion. This thread is relatively long. If there have been past comments that have addressed the my criticism, with examples, then why not share those than making it be about me? I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think that was called for. I didn't have to respond-- I thought very seriously about not responding and just letting it go. But then again, I didn't criticize anyone here except Madonna, and I would appreciate the same consideration. Because unlike yourself, i don't find her "transformations" to be hypocritcal. And i don't find her to be an opportunist, that's MY opinion darling. And you have yours. Aren't opinions wonderful. Simmer down, it's Madonna we're discussing not religion. | |
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DavidEye said: Isel said: Then why don't you fans enlighten me rather than telling me that I have a problem with success or that I'm over analyzing (not you necessarily)? I haven't see those threads. What have her fans said about Madonna's hypocrisy? I read one fan's opinion on this thread that at least acknowledged my point-of-view--at least understood where I was coming from. But everyone else is too busy dismissing those of us who just shared a critical opinion. This thread is relatively long. If there have been past comments that have addressed the my criticism, with examples, then why not share those than making it be about me? I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think that was called for. I didn't have to respond-- I thought very seriously about not responding and just letting it go. But then again, I didn't criticize anyone here except Madonna, and I would appreciate the same consideration. Okay,I will address one of your criticisms.Madonna has made hypocritical comments in the past.She speaks against materialism and greed,yet she charges $350 to see her in concert.This has always been a problem with me.I've never said she is perfect.But in the end,I don't care about that.Madonna is not a politician.She doesn't owe me anything.If I think she is a shallow,conceited,phony,hypocrital bitch,I have the option of not buying her CDs or going to her concerts.I can just ignore her.That's really the point I was trying to make. Now I that's a good point. So basically it's her music that keeps you coming back. Well, I guess for me, her music isn't enough. I guess I'd have a REAL dilemma if I was a HUGE fan of her music and of her a performer. Thank you. I guess, I,too, became so caught-up in addressing some of the personal criticisms/generalizations/implications about "me," I just didn't "hear" what you were trying to say. | |
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Isel said: DavidEye said: Okay,I will address one of your criticisms.Madonna has made hypocritical comments in the past.She speaks against materialism and greed,yet she charges $350 to see her in concert.This has always been a problem with me.I've never said she is perfect.But in the end,I don't care about that.Madonna is not a politician.She doesn't owe me anything.If I think she is a shallow,conceited,phony,hypocrital bitch,I have the option of not buying her CDs or going to her concerts.I can just ignore her.That's really the point I was trying to make. Now that's a good point. So basically it's her music that keeps you coming back. Well, I guess for me, her music isn't enough. I guess I'd have a REAL dilemma if I was a HUGE fan of her music and of her a performer. Yes,for me,it's all about the music.I've learned from years of being a Prince fan that you really have to focus on the music and not the personality | |
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DavidEye said: Isel said: Now that's a good point. So basically it's her music that keeps you coming back. Well, I guess for me, her music isn't enough. I guess I'd have a REAL dilemma if I was a HUGE fan of her music and of her a performer. Yes,for me,it's all about the music.I've learned from years of being a Prince fan that you really have to focus on the music and not the personality Yes... I so agree. I've been a Prince fan FOR YEARS, and I have criticisms of him as well--maybe even some of the same criticisms. I think that's some of MY problem. I don't see anything wrong with not agreeing with everything an artists does, says, or tries to project. I'm a fan of Janet's, too, but I don't agree with everything about her either--and I've been called a hater for it. As far as Madonna, even if I were more a fan of her music, I don't think that would necessarily stop me from having and sharing the same criticisms, ya know? As you and others have said, it ain't that serious. It's just discussion. There is no need to make pejorative remarks. If I were a huge fan of Madonna's, my criticisms wouldn't make me any less of a fan. I have criticism about Prince and Janet, but I've have all of their work, so there ya go. See, in the response above, a person just called me darling... as if I called someone sweetheart-- which can be used rather dismissively. The thing is, I could address that, then we would go back and forth or just let it go. Well, I'll let that one go,but I don't understand that mentality. I could understand if if I were doing the same thing, but I'm not. So I've been down this road before. Sometimes I address it, and sometimes I don't. I can only control myself and my responses, sooooo that's just the way it is. | |
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Isel said:[quote] DavidEye said: See, in the response above, a person just called me darling... as if I called someone sweetheart-- which can be used rather dismissively. The thing is, I could address that, then we would go back and forth or just let it go. Well, I'll let that one go,but I don't understand that mentality. I could understand if if I were doing the same thing, but I'm not. I call every female darling, my love, sweetheart etc. It's common fag talk. Yet again you've taken something personally. And also you made referrences to things in your reply that i never said. I think it's important to go back and read the replys to see who said what, that way we don't get confused and write nasty replys back when I didn't say anything that was meant to be offensive. [Edited 5/9/06 6:41am] | |
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Hey Heartbeatocean....you coming out here for the San Jose shows? | |
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jayaredee said:[quote] Isel said: DavidEye said: See, in the response above, a person just called me darling... as if I called someone sweetheart-- which can be used rather dismissively. The thing is, I could address that, then we would go back and forth or just let it go. Well, I'll let that one go,but I don't understand that mentality. I could understand if if I were doing the same thing, but I'm not. I call every female darling, my love, sweetheart etc. It's common fag talk. Yet again you've taken something personally. And also you made referrences to things in your reply that i never said. I think it's important to go back and read the replys to see who said what, that way we don't get confused and write nasty replys back when I didn't say anything that was meant to be offensive. [Edited 5/9/06 6:41am] Oh... well that makes me feel better in a way... like I might be one of your friends. lol Cool. See we can all get along even though we don't agree! Oh... by the way, go back and read my post that you quoted, I said "not necessarily you." So I wasn't really addressing you with some of my generalizations. | |
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