jayaredee said:

The problem is that the girl who have the same drive has jan and madge don't get the chance to get a recording deal. Few are the ones who get a sucessful indie recording contract

MikeMatronik said:

People like to piss on women like Madge and Jan because they're women who speak up and have opinions and society is generally afraid of that.

So instead the media pumps up stars like Britney, Paris and Lindsay Lohan, who all are airheads, have no views on anything and generally don't give a shit.

Look at Pink.... She released a very decent pop album but it's hardly getting the attention it deserves because she's outspoken.

Nobody likes outspoken women, yet when Bono speaks his views, he's a saint. Go figure.

But honestly, if there's one thing i wish Madonna would keep hush about, it's Kaballah. Nobody appreciates it and she should know it. I don't care what people's personal beliefs are but there's a time and a place for that sort of discussion and it's not on MTV when promoting an album. I much preferred when she was openly questioning Catholicism and drawing good points towards it.
[Edited 5/7/06 14:41pm]

MikeMatronik said:

And people will tear you apart on the org

But honestly, it's gotten to where i don't post certain articles and news regarding Madonna because i know the kind of reaction the board will give to them.
I haven't posted a Madge topic since last year, honestly. Every time i enter a Madge thread i hold my breath. Either there will be some sort of cult worship going on or a war.

VoicesCarry said:

Rebbie and Jackie seem fairly normal, too. I'm honestly not trying to start anything (I don't think Janet is insane at all), but I've always wondered why she's dubbed "the normal one" of the family when those two aforementioned siblings (plus maybe Tito and Marlon as well?) haven't done anything psychotic, either (at least not that I know of).

Honestly i think the only screwed up ones in the family are Micheal and Latoya.

squiddyren said:

Yes, they are; my statement was really meant to encompass the ones who have had to deal with fame for a long period of time. Janet is seen as "the normal one" since most people have forgotten that Tito, Jermaine, Rebbie etc. exist

VoicesCarry said:

Point taken.

:::wonders how the FUCK this got to the Jacksons, but can't be bothered to read through it:::

CalhounSq said:

This is the very first Madonna thread to morph into a Janet thread

jayaredee said:

thank god since Confessions has come out she hasn't mentioned Kabbalah alot

CalhounSq said:

the jackson family drama AND madonna's marriage drama in the same thread? what's not to love?

Whoknows, you need to stop being such a snob and realize everyone doesn't have the same taste as you. To me you have the same pretentious attitude you're claiming Madonna does. Why do you have such resentment for Madonna and homosexuals ? If you don't like Madonna why must you always enter her post ? Too many people here feel as though their opinion is the greatest and anyone who doesn't like what they like are idiots with bad taste. Get over yourselves.

Isel, I can see where you're coming from ... even as a Madonna fan.

Yeah, war is horrible, racism is not good, aids is a bad disease.. strong opinions indeed .
*
[Edited 5/7/06 16:11pm]

badujunkie said:

I'm back ooooo Well, yeah... I have this respect/hate thing going with Madonna. Did you not read the part where I said that I admired her for a music/video artist and performer? Plus, I'm a former professional dancer(ballet and musical theatre), so I sort of understand that side, if ya know what I mean.
I could go on about Madonna and site further examples of hypocrisy, but I do respect her in a way, and her fans. She's complex as we all are. So I'll give her a break. I'm just not in awe of her.

And why does a discussion about Madonna always have to include Janet? The deal is this: Janet just goes out and does what she does. She doesn't make comments about her spiritual "evolution." She's not trying to save the world. I understand the comparison obviously, but Madonna always has this self-important air about her. Janet isn't like that... maybe a little but not like Madonna.

Madonna is quite different from Janet as a person and artist. Janet doesn't seem to take herself quite as seriously as Madonna, but that's just my opinion. Plus people (critics and fans) let Madonna get away with stuff. I've never understood that. Maybe that's what annoys me the most.

Like I said, I could go on, but I'll refrain. I've been reading this forum for a long time. I probably shouldn't have voiced my opinion because I know that Madonna has quite a bit of support here. I guess, I just get sick of her sometimes. I understand why her fans love her though.

Isel said:

maybe people let her get away with it because people have been counting down the days until her carear is over since Seymour Stein signed her to Sire in 1981.

jayaredee said:

Jermaine and Randy sharing a wife is normal to you

I think Madonna and Janet are probably the last truly great pop stars who were also artistic. Sure, artists like Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston were better singers, but both Madonna and Janet put more effort in making excellent records and bringing underground sounds to the mainstream(such as house music and electronica). Take "Ray of Light" or "The Velvet Rope" and they'll shit all over Mariah's and Whitney's albums(for the record, I happen to like Mariah Carey, so Im not hating).

I think, at this point, you can't try to discredit either artists as far as there role in music history. And if you think about it, what pop singers today can match up to either of there smarts? Britney or Jessica? Yeah right. The only ones that I can probably see matching there level are Justin, Beyonce, Christina and Pink(say what you want about either of these artists, but they have more of a future than any of the other pop tarts out today).

I agree with the lovers and disagree with the haters (some of whom sound like pretty big fans to me)

But I have to say I think stormy marriages are BAD NEWS. This coming from personal experience, of course.

CalhounSq said:

didn't cha know? all roads lead to the jacksons on the org! lol

lilgish said:

lol and wasnt randy also the one that almost got locked up for beatin his wife?

Joshua23 said:

I agree.It amazes me the way some people have to over-analyze things,and try to "explain" why Madonna became a superstar.They constantly try to tear her down and downplay her accomplishments.Madonna is a pop/dance artist who makes music that many people enjoy.End of story.If you don't like her or her music,just act like she doesn't exist.There's no need to buy her music,keep up with her career,or waste your time trying to "analyze" her success.

MikeMatronik said:

Well, Sweetie, GETTING BACK TO THE ACTUAL TOPIC OF YOUR THREAD: I can't imagine how anyone would be surprised these two have hit some bumps in their marriage; it's been five+ years, and many relationship dynamics change over time. The study of psychology and relationship "models" demonstrate this very clearly, like for example in the Masters & Johnson Encyclopedia of Human Sexuality. It's a normal, natural cycle in sexually connected human relationships that you start out red hot and then you cool down a bit through the years. It's just that the question becomes whether or not the two adults in the relationship are knowledgable and mature enough to accept and grow with their changing dynamics. The only thing that makes this story so tittilating is that the average Jane and Joe don't have to live under the scrutiny of the media spotlight when it's happening in THEIR world, that's all.

DavidEye said:

Well, this is a discussion board, right? I'm just basing my opinions about Madonna on some observations that I made over the years based on her music, some "biographies," and interviews that I have seen or read. I don't see it as over-analyzing, but more an opinion due to years of exposure--intentional or not-- to Madonna. It's just the way she comes across to me.

Regarding Janet, her situation is a bit different. She was already from a star family. Yeah, her father pushed her in another direction than she wanted to go. And to me she has made the best of it. I think Janet just wanted to be a success regardless of the path that she took. She appears to be very driven and competitive. She was just seeking success on her own terms, not stardom itself.
Plus, I don't see Janet "morphing" herself as much as Madonna. There is a truth about Janet. I'm not talking about her weight, personal life, etc. Janet doesn't seem to have the need to re-invent herself to the degree that Madonna does.

Also, Madonna sought stardom, and used music as a vehicle. Hey, I agree that for the industry and her fans, it's a win-win situation. But there is something about Madonna that is disingenuous. It's just my opinion based upon some observations. I just don't think that she takes a stand even though people see her as a controversial figure of sorts. I could give you all a GREAT example, but it would start a huge argument, and I don't want to go there. By the way, this same thing reared its ugly head at the Coachella festival from the reports that I read. In short, with all of her re-inventions, is there a core truth? Or does she just go with the flow.

So as far as analyzing and speculating about celebrities, well, sometimes that's what people do. Madonna is a very intriguing figure. I don't really care about her personal life with her husband. I don't care about any celebrity's personal life except for fun. I just responded to this thread because the article illustrated my opinion to a certain degree. My criticism with Madonna is more complex. Like I said, no one ever seems to be able to hold Madonna accountable or challenges her words, or not to the same degree I've seen with other artists. I don't hate Madonna. I don't care about any celebrity enough to hate. I'm just challenging her and holding her accountable.
[Edited 5/8/06 8:35am]

Isel said:[quote]

DavidEye said:

So are you saying Janet never reinvented her image? People always associate that with Madonna but she's not the only one to do so. Whether it's Janet, The Rolling Stones or the Beatles, they've all switched up their direction in terms of image and music. Otherwise you'd get bored quickly. It's the only way to survive long term in the industry.
At the end of the day, Madonna still has the same views and opinions whether she's performing at Coachella, a stadium, wearing crucifixes around her neck or wearing nothing at all.

You're obviously not seeking the "core" of Madonna and seeing everything at face value. As for time itself, people change over a period of time. Her priorities are different today than they were 23 years ago. If that makes her a fake to you than whatever.

As for the Janet thing, do you know she never seeked stardom. And do you know the Madonna's true ambition was to be a star no matter the route? By reading unauthorized biographies and others' biased views. No one knows what Madonna or Janet hoped to become.
And even if it was Madonna's desire to be a star, she not only became a star with that ambition, she became one of the world's biggest stars. No matter what, that's inspirational. We all have dreams but how many of us actually go out after them. Madonna's story is very much an inspiration.
[Edited 5/8/06 8:14am]

jayaredee said:[quote]

Isel said:

I edited my earlier post about Janet. I could ATTEMPT to prove my point further, but I would rather just agree to disagree. For me, it's just more complex than calling her a "fake." It's more about being opportunistic.

Isel said:

Any person in business is an opportunist, how does a business thrive? Madonna is one of the few pop stars that has control over her career and all aspects of it in terms of marketing, promotion etc.

As i said, Madonna isn't the only one whose taken to trends in music and style.
If she was sincerely money hungry she might have gotten a rapper or 2 on her latest album wouldn't she.

jayaredee said:

Oh... it's not about money... not at all. It's not even about fame. It's about perpetuating Madonna as a star and icon. I remember once Cher was quoted as saying something like, "There is nothing worse than be un-cool." I think it's about Madonna still being cool.

Anyway, I'm going to end my participation here. As I said, I probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place. I usually don't. Sorry if I offended any of her fans with my opinions. She is a legend. I definitely can't argue that. Plus she has worked very hard to achieve her success whether I agree with her or not. So she deserves a little regard and respect.

She just rubs me the wrong way.

Isel said:

Nobody is offended, i was just challenging your opinions.

jayaredee said:

I know. I didn't think that you were offended. I was talking about other fans who might view my opinions as hate. But the deal is that in order for me to further present my argument, I'd have to attack Madonna, so to speak. I already have "attacked" her to a certain extent. I already presented a couple of specific examples early in the discussion. I could obviously present more, but why? Sometimes a debate doesn't serve any purpose. And this is one of those times because there is no winning for either side: only Madonna knows her motivation. Suffice to say, Madonna is complex. Suffice to say, she is not one of my favorite artists, but I do respect her accomplishments. And I respect that both she and Janet have stuck around for all of these years. Yes, I think their presentation of "pop" is sort of dying-out. I agree that there is Britney, but she is not even in the same league as Madonna or Janet, in spite of my "issues" with Madonna in particular.

P.S. I just read your response about concerning authorized bios... or my sources for info. Well, I have never read a bio on Madonna. I've seen bios about her on television. So some of my info. about her background and her early ambition comes from those. But my criticisms about her are based her own actions and words. I would think that even you might agree that Madonna has been somewhat contradictory. I'll give you a rather benign example. Yes, Madonna seems to project this image of power... of a person who makes it happen, ya know? But I was sort of shocked when I read in one interview that she stays on the skinny side to please her husband because he likes "carved-out" women. It was odd to me that Madonna appears to allow her husband to dictate that aspect of her life when she seems at odds with him on other issues? Maybe he is just a convenient excuse?

This was when everyone was ridiculing Janet for gaining weight, and people ignored Madonna's comment, focusing more on how great her bod looked compared to Janet's. At least with Janet, she doesn't appear to be trying to fit-in to some image for J.D. She may be FORCED to project a certain image for her career, but she doesn't have to conform in her private life--or so it would appear. By the way, I came across the article because I was reading about Janet's struggle, and this one mentioned Madonna in comparision.

Sooo I dunno about Madonna sometimes based upon this, previously mentioned examples, and other of which I am aware.
[Edited 5/8/06 10:04am]

badujunkie said:

I'll reply to this one post as I don't have time to respond to the rest and then I'm OUTTA HERE! I was a big Madonna fan as a kid. Like A Prayer is still one of my favourite albums. In the 80s she had probably the greatest run of pop singles ever. The videos were great too. Then in 92 she started working with producers who weren't really songwriters and the music became very run of the mill. I was also shocked at how ordinary the videos became. Strip away the shallow controversy and there was nothing there. I should point out that millions of people agreed with me on this as her sales plummeted. Some of you will say that's because she challenged society or some nonsense like that but the fact was, no real people were morally shocked. They just couldn't believe how desparate she seemed.

None of this would matter of course if the music was better. I remember seeing TGS at Wembley in 93(I hadn't given up on her yet). When they did the orgy bit after D&D, half the audience was LAUGHING! When she did that embarrasing speech during In This Life people were looking at each other with bemusement. It was so bad you didn't know if she was being ironic or not. The last M album I bought was ROL, mostly on the back of Frozen, and 'cos I was glad to see Madonna back. I told myself I liked it, but within a year I gave it away.