Okay so I am so glad that some of you orgers are also Michael followers because if I brought up the following topic at a Michael board..they would all act like drones and get pissed..so please just read my questions..think about my thoughts and stick it out with me..

First question is..When did Michael really get a true to form addiction to painkillers? In the Man In The Mirror (biopic) it made it seem like it was right after his pepsi burn incedent. However, in other Michael biographies (books) it made it seem like he really got it started when he was hooked on painkillers big time in 93 for the first round of bs kiddie scandals. Is this the truth?

Second of all..it would seem..judging by his apperances he had the bad habit kicked for 95 and 97..and even in 99. However it seemed when he came back on the scene with 2001's "Invincible" he acted out of it, SURE..It could be his sleeping habbits had a lot to do with this. However..I don't know. I'm not passing judgement just saying..And then on the whole Bashir thing..he looked REALLY drugged in certain scenes of that interview.

Then for his whole trial (I was actually in the Santa Maria courtroom for some of the days and saw the man with my own 2 eyes, he looked REALLY out of it.) A friend of mine who attended every single hearing and session of the trial, (he couldn't miss a single one - he was doing his job each day. He was even there the days Michael wasn't for hearings and stuff) he said that Michael started out very alive, but by the end of it, he was like sleep-walking and had lost the "umph!" in his step. Now given, that trial would have been A LOT to suffer through, I just wonder what was going on behind the scenes. I also remember reading a Vannity Fair article in which it stated basically that Michael had doctors around him, who would write him perscriptions for whatever he wanted. That is kind of scary and sad IF TRUE

Also I was curious..if Michael was addicted to pain-killers..would that perhaps be a reason for all the lip synching at recent concerts and stuff? Or is it more with age?

I worry about Michael..(seeing as I'm a big fan) and I'd hate to see him end up like Elvis and ODing on perscription stuff.

Thoughts..?
[Edited 12/19/05 0:37am]

jasonstar said:

I love Michael, but I've come to realize that as a liveartist he is done, kaputt, finito, over. I don't know if it is due to painkillers or just that he has lost his voice and energy but he can't do it anymore. During MSG he it showed so much...I mean at least he sang live with his brothers but even Jermaine that should have been rosty sounded a lot better than Mike IMO. They had lowered the songs but Michael still had problems hitting the notes. Listen to the ad libs in YRMW and listen to Dancing Mashine. And what about I'll be there. Jermaine sounded good and Michael sounded good occasionally, but what about his vibrato. It was even more intense than R Kelly's. Now you may not think I'm a fan which of course is not true. I love Michael. Still think he sounds good on record and I think he used to be the baddest liveartist ever...But not since Dangerous tour....

jasonstar said:

I think he is just afraid to do it anymore. Mostly probably because of all the dancing steps he is also performing - so I guess age also has a lot to do with it. Of course, Michael has always done both, sang live and lip-syncing. Ever since being a kid, so I guess he feels quite familiar with both.

When he gave that statement at Neverland back in '93, he stated he became dependant on them after reconstructive surgery on his scalp. why he had that i don't know. the Pepsi incident was 9 years before then so you'd think that'd have been sorted by then.

songs like morphine where he sings about demorol, seem sadly autobiographical to me. BOTDF only sold a few mil worldwide so this wasn't picked up on by the press.

I don't think it's anything to do with his lip-synching though. Mike still puts on an energetic show, but he's not 25-30 anymore, he can't do a Victory or a Bad tour these days. He should have been more adventurous with his later tours. Dangerous and HIStory really should have signalled for a change of pace, something different, sit down and sing maybe instead of repeating himself (still put on a couple of fast numbers with dancing but for crying out loud SING!).

The HIStory tour was difficult to watch for those reasons having seen the Bad tour only 9yrs prior. he truly was astounding back then.

I think he should take a leaf out of Madonna's book, get fit, do some yoga or something, that way he could possibly hit the road again. Though i have my doubts. His performance at MSG with his brothers was pretty hot and that wasn't a million years ago, i didn't care for his solo segment particularly, the only thing he sang live then was his ad-libs.

I hope he can pull himself together.

jasonstar said:

First, let me say you're my fave MJ fan around these parts! You take a refreshingly objective view of him, and your posts are always very thoughtful. Just my .



I, too, have read that he was first introduced to them after the Pepsi ad accident. He may have been abusing them somewhat after that, but then the stress of the '93 accusations may have pushed him over the edge to really go overboard on them.



Seems to me other celebs have got into trouble that way: they'll "doctor shop" to find one who will freely write prescriptions for the goodies they want. Heck, its not just celebs, a former coworker of mine seemed to be addicted to pain killers, she went to different doctors and played all kinds of games to get those pills (and she sure didn't have the kind of money MJ has...)



You're right to be concerned, I'm afraid it's a real possibility...he seems to be very isolated, in a total creative doldrum, and to have no goals or ambitions right now that we can see..he's just wandering around, showing up here and there.

I've had many of the same questions too. I noticed the way he acted in the Bashir Interview and I could tell he had "something"? I'm not sure what it has to do with lip synching though. As a huge Michael J. fan I would hate to see him go down like Elvis. Many MJ fans live in this fairytale, where Michael Jackson is nothing less then perfect...but he is a human being with real problems and he needs help. I pray that he gets it, not for continuation of entertainment purposes but for his health and well being.

agreed. He´s too much of a perfectionist no to do it 100% and he probably feels he´s not pra ctising enough these days to be perfect.

As for painkillers it´s hard to tell. He seemed drugged up to me during the NY concerts, but at the same time I didn´t understand that he managed the dancing routines the way he did, if he was drugged up. He did look like it though - his eyes.

As for the trial, he might have taken pain killers to releive his back pain, but I think he´s smart enough to be careful after having a treatment back in 93 not to "overdo" it. I think he looked terrrible during the trial simply because it was too much for him to take. I personally would not have handled it as well as he did. I thought he was doing fine. Don´t forget he was facing 20 years in prison and you never know. I think he couldn´t stand it simply just worriing about his kids and what would happen if he got convicted.

As for Bashir documentary he didn´t seem drugged up. Mike always seemed a bit "sleepy". Bashit´s editing jüst made him look worse than he actually does. Have some of you seen Fahrenheit? Moore did the same with Bush - not that I am a fan of his.

dag said:

He was shaking like a damn leaf in the infamous and somewhat sad trying-to-feed-Blanket scene-- something wasn't right.

oh yeah, that scene - the worst scene EVER!! Yeah something WAS wrong, but he didn´t seemed drug. I think what was wrong was him REALIZING WHAT he had DONE and you all know what I am talking about.I heard he couldn´t get over that stupid thing for a while and felt really bad. I guess he felt ashamed to have to be in the public - he looked "disturbed" even at the Bambi´ s and I think he didn´t like the idea that Bashir was around and that he couldn´t just hide fron everybody.

I remember myself after doing the worst thing that I ever did. I acted VERY strange as well. I couldn´ t believe what a stupid mistake I had done and I can´t even imagine how I´d feel if there was a journalist taping me at that time.

rather than start another MJ thread....

about his finances.

The singer's $330m debts could result in the forced sale of Neverland and his half of the Beatles catalogue
By Nicholas Wapshott in New York
Published: 18 December 2005
Michael Jackson faces the forced sale of the Neverland Ranch and his half of the Beatles song catalogue unless he can come up with a repayment of some of the money he owes to a hedge fund by Tuesday.

Jackson, 47, who has debts of $339m (£191m), must repay the New York-based Fortress Investments, the firm of "distressed debt" specialists that acquired Jackson's $270m loan from Bank of America in May after the singer reportedly failed to make a $350,000 repayment the previous month.

Jackson also missed a payment to Fortress in October, prompting a rescheduling of the debt until Tuesday.

Unless he finds the cash, Fortress may move against the assets, which secure the loan. At stake is Jackson's half of the Sony/ATV Music Publishing catalogue of 300,000 songs - including more than 200 Beatles songs - bought in its entirety in 1985 for $47.5m, which earns him $75m a year.

Also at risk is Jackson's publishing company Mijac, which owns the rights to his own songs and to music by Elvis Presley, Sly and the Family Stone and others, against which the singer has borrowed $69m.

He may also be obliged to sell the 2,700-acre Neverland Ranch outside Santa Barbara, California, complete with zoo animals, a funfair and annual running costs of $5m.

Already put on the market by Jackson is the Hayvenhurst mansion in Encino, California, which he bought in the 1970s for his mother Katherine.

The singer has failed to keep up mortgage repayments on a $2.2m loan he took out against the Encino property, and his mother, and brothers Randy and Jermaine, have reportedly been told they must leave by next month.

Jackson and his children have been staying in Bahrain as a guest of Crown Prince Salman bin Hamad Khalifa since the singer was acquitted of child sex charges in June. The singer has no intention of returning to America and is described by his lawyer, Thomas Mesereau, as "permanently living outside of the United States".

According to court testimony, Jackson is outspending income by up to $30m a year, and Myong-Ho Lee, his former financial adviser, described his finances as "a ticking time bomb".

His half of the Sony/ATV Music Publishing catalogue, which he shares with Sony/BMG Music Entertainment, is worth at least $500m, and Mijac, which he wholly owns, is valued at $150m.

Estate agents say Jackson's Neverland ranch, bought for $17m in 1988, would fetch $55m.

But Jackson's financial woes are complicated by the terms of the Beatles catalogue deal with Sony, which ends this month. Sony has the right to buy Jackson's half of the catalogue from him for $200m unless he repays the loan or finds another buyer.

Fortress is certain to step in if Jackson's ownership of the lucrative Beatles library is put at risk, and may demand that the catalogue be transferred to it.

Nor do Jackson's financial woes stop there. On top of the $10m in legal bills from his child sex trial, his former manager, Dieter Wiesner, claims Jackson owes him $64m for selling merchandising rights that he wasn't entitled to.

Meanwhile, in Los Angeles County Superior Court, Jackson's former business partner, Frederic Marc Schaffel, claims he is owed $2m for loans made to Jackson, as well as $800,000 for producing two Jackson television shows in 2003. The singer is countersuing.

Jackson is also suing Marcel Avram, a former manager who won compensation from the singer for not performing at two concerts on New Year's Eve 2001, and he must defend himself against a further breach-of-contract suit brought by a refinancing firm.

In an effort to drum up cash quickly, Jackson is reissuing 20 of his singles in the UK, with the releases coming one week apart. The first, "Thriller", hits the shops on 23 January.

Over his career, the pop star has earnt around $500m, including $100m from concerts, $30m from endorsements, $20m from video sales and $25m from merchandise. At the peak of his popularity, he took home $50m a year.

His latest album, Invincible, cost him $25m to produce, on top of $5m provided by Sony, but the record failed to take off. In eight months, it sold just six million worldwide, returning him only $15m.

This compares with his mega-hit album Thriller, which made him a massive $115m. Bad and Dangerous both earnt him $47.5m, and HIStory made $35m.

Michael Jackson faces the forced sale of the Neverland Ranch and his half of the Beatles song catalogue unless he can come up with a repayment of some of the money he owes to a hedge fund by Tuesday.

Jackson, 47, who has debts of $339m (£191m), must repay the New York-based Fortress Investments, the firm of "distressed debt" specialists that acquired Jackson's $270m loan from Bank of America in May after the singer reportedly failed to make a $350,000 repayment the previous month.

Jackson also missed a payment to Fortress in October, prompting a rescheduling of the debt until Tuesday.

Unless he finds the cash, Fortress may move against the assets, which secure the loan. At stake is Jackson's half of the Sony/ATV Music Publishing catalogue of 300,000 songs - including more than 200 Beatles songs - bought in its entirety in 1985 for $47.5m, which earns him $75m a year.

Also at risk is Jackson's publishing company Mijac, which owns the rights to his own songs and to music by Elvis Presley, Sly and the Family Stone and others, against which the singer has borrowed $69m.

He may also be obliged to sell the 2,700-acre Neverland Ranch outside Santa Barbara, California, complete with zoo animals, a funfair and annual running costs of $5m.

Already put on the market by Jackson is the Hayvenhurst mansion in Encino, California, which he bought in the 1970s for his mother Katherine.

The singer has failed to keep up mortgage repayments on a $2.2m loan he took out against the Encino property, and his mother, and brothers Randy and Jermaine, have reportedly been told they must leave by next month.

Jackson and his children have been staying in Bahrain as a guest of Crown Prince Salman bin Hamad Khalifa since the singer was acquitted of child sex charges in June. The singer has no intention of returning to America and is described by his lawyer, Thomas Mesereau, as "permanently living outside of the United States".

According to court testimony, Jackson is outspending income by up to $30m a year, and Myong-Ho Lee, his former financial adviser, described his finances as "a ticking time bomb".

His half of the Sony/ATV Music Publishing catalogue, which he shares with Sony/BMG Music Entertainment, is worth at least $500m, and Mijac, which he wholly owns, is valued at $150m.




i can only assume this journalist has complete access to MJ's bank statements. He's very matter of fact with his numbers. Just think of a figure, any figure. it doesn't matter!
[Edited 12/19/05 7:38am]

When did that "bankrupt in 14 days" story appeared? Haven´t the 14 days passed already? Does anyone know?

dag said:

Well it said the date was December 14th..so we could even assume that the starting date for the clock ticking is December 14th.

Today is the 19th

9 days left...

CandaceS said:

Thank you so much..It really bugs me that Michael's "true" fans want to live in "everything is fine" world, for lack of a better phrase "Neverland" no pun intended. You can't just pretend everything is fine..life does not work that way. I don't know if they took a page out of Michael's own views and are doing it. I am friends with someone VERY close to Michael. And they once said something that I think sums it up, "A compelling image exists with Michael's fans where Michael is this guy who sits at a table during meetings, pounding his fists and bossing his personal assts around to get stuff taken care of whenever a bad story or something is going wrong. However, it isn't true. Michael is VERY removed from that reality. He has people around him take care as best they can his problems, without him having to deal with it. When he is brought in to deal with stuff he is very annoyed by having to be there." I suppose it is whole thinking of, "If I stare at my problems, they multiply." But my problems with this thinking is that..if shit is getting bad..it is getting bad.

I really really really wish Michael could pull a Prince. I wish he could get his shit together and come back alive and kicking. MSG was a great oppertunity for Michael to show his stuff. If you happen to have caught the HIStory tour, you could have seen Michael sing the old Jackson 5 songs with an actual voice. As opposed to the MSG show - When he was doing those old numbers, the songs he wasn't lip synching beyond Dancing Machine, were just unbearable to me. His voice sounded like half of it was singing while the other half was panting out of breath. Michael in the eyes (like someone pointed out above) looked zonked. And the whole hand to his mouth thing the entire time...

One of the reasons I'm a Prince fan (beyond Purple Rain and The Batman soundtrack) is because..yeah he has his little ticks (not signing autographs..) but he puts on a good show. He knows he has to be in good health and stay fit to do what he does. When he sings a song..he doesn't need to lip synch. His voice stays in shape. Now I perfer Michael to Prince anyday but I respect Prince for being such a showman that he doesn't let his "addictions" if he has any, get in his way with his dayjob. I hope one day Michael follows Prince's path and gets his shit together. Lots of fans of Michael's want to act like MSG was when it happened..but it wasn't. Sorry I was as excited as everyone else with "Invincible"..The "You Rock My World" was good fun, but when you saw the MSG show..boy..something wasn't right. The decade that is becoming the 2000's wasn't really kind to Michael excluding June 13th. I hope the second half of 2000 (starting on June 13th) can be better to Michael. Prince really shined this decade so far and I hope with his new album and new tour, he does. If for anything else..this Michael fan will have a performer to enjoy until Michael gets his shit together..which hopefully will one day happen. I watch the Bad tour and want to cry. Michael is capable of concert greatness..he really is. I don't care about the dance steps being there. Just sing Michael..please SING. I don't care if you do an unplugged concert..just SING!!!!
[Edited 12/19/05 9:42am]

sad sad story...I have been a michael fan since i was 4 years old...I love him but he has been through so much...i kinda feel like he's done his mission down here on earth (as an artist) where can u go when you have had and seen it all ???

jasonstar said:

Marrk said:

so he has a debt of $340mil

he made 115mi from thriller sold 60mil

47.5mil each from bad and dangerous sold 30mil and 32 worldwide respectively

35mil for history sold 18mil copies worldwide

someone said his oryalty rate is $5/cd which isnt really the case
more like $2/cd which i always suspected!!


but he owns the masters in the mijac catalogue so he might get $5/cd becasue no one else gets paid the rest is markettin and distribution costs!!


Another fact the value of mijac started to fall off
he took a loan of $70 agianst it! but was forced to include neverland because of fallin value!!


Someone said prince masters r worth $90mil i doubt that!!

asg said:

I seriously doubt the validity of any of those figures to be honest. Nobody knows squat is the bottom line.

Here is another question along the MJ lines..


If Michael does come back to USA to live (which I realize might not happen..but if it does..)

What will he be up against? Does he have cases pending in USA waiting for him to arrive back? Because I know since he is out of the country I don't think they can force him to return just to give a disposition in a civil case. Last time I checked I don't think he has criminal cases pending. (All though I believe another thing to consider if everyone's favorite DA, Tom Sneddon. HE has some good grounds to be worried about Sneddon. I know that guy is just a slime. Sorry but he is. He'd love to see Michael in jail for probably just about anything. When I went to Santa Maria, I asked some of the people around there and Santa Barabara thoughts on Senddon and they said, "Lots of people in the county really think he is a jerk. They have lots of problems with him"

Figures..

I haven't heard about any pending cases lately, but it was news reports talking about him missing a court case involving another accuser, but I haven't heard about it since the summer.

prettymansson said:

When your at the bottom, you can only go up...

I pray that line is true for Michael

MichaelsLight said:

I wasn't impressed with Michael's vocals in Dancing Machine and I'll be there at MSG. I thought Jermaine sounded if not better than ever at least as good as ever but Michael sounded worse than ever...How can that be? I don't understand what has happen to Michael's voice

manthevan said:

time and drugs, unfortunately...

manthevan said:

I actually meant that on a more personal and emotional level, so I guess it really had nothing to do with your post...my bad

murph said:

I was at the show...IT SUCKED !!! seemed like all his surgeries messed his nasal passage up or something...he kept covering his face also...like he was ashamed for people to see how fucked up he looks...for christ sakes he cant even smile anymore his mouth does not move...



NOW

^^Is that not a smile in your book?

prettymansson said:

Oh, you were there? Can you please tell me a little more about it. What sucked about the performance except what you mentioned above. How did Michael's and Jermaine's vocals sound live?
[Edited 12/19/05 13:50pm]

manthevan said:

Your editing skills are a little crazy dog...Get at Pretty...I didn't say that up top...check again...
[Edited 12/19/05 13:53pm]

murph said:

Haha..sorry! My bad!

manthevan said:

well what sucked was the tickets cost a fortune...it was being billed as the greatest show on earth so i went all out and got tickets for both nights...the first night was horrible...(the show everyone has seen on tv or videos is edited from two nights) between every artist there was an intermission for like
29-30 minutes..it started around 7:30 and ended about 12:00am...people were booing at marlon brando and liza minelli...it was so BORING...at last michael came on and there was no energy...we had seen about 15 terrible performances...and a whole night of michael worship on these big screens...(showing fans fainting all over the world...chasing him...and the big statue of him in europe with the army of synchronized military men...
his singing and performing was ok...but the same as people like usher and N synch trying to COPY him...it was plastic...he sang u rock my world to a tape...covered his face a million times while singing...and did the same shit we have seen since 1983 Red beat it jacket for beat it...slash playing rock lead guitar...black sequined jacket with white socks and a black hat for billie jean...moonwalk after u say HEE !!! Hoo!!! (moonwalk, spin...get on your toes...ect) and we all had seen it done better and fresher....then the morning after the 2nd show...i woke up to the news that airplanes just ran into the world trade center...i looked out my window and yes...it was true...mass hysteria in manhattan it was 9/11
thats all i remember...

prettymansson said:

Thank you very much for taking your time. Do you agree that Jermaine sounded good in I'll be there?