I ran across an interesting essay in Time magazine a few weeks back, entitled "Black Guy, White Music". The author, Ta-Neshi Coates, desribes himself as a former hip-hop fanatic who tired of the music with all it's macho bluster, and looking for something new, tried "White" music. He says Rock never interested him before, but now he's traded Lil Kim and 50 Cent for Bjork and Jack White. One intersting thing that he says in the article is that when he was a rap fan, it's was partly as a way to express his "Black" identity, and his connection to the cause. Now that he listens to "White" music, he can enjoy it strictly as music, without worrying about how it reflects on his identity, or the sociological impact it will have on the Black community.

One thing that I was thinking after reading the article is that Hip-hop seems to me to be in many respects a "juvenile" art form. In that it's ways of viewing a lot of issues are immature and lack nuance and subtlety. Once you get to be a certain age, it really does seem like kid's stuff (and I think the same of a lot of Heavy metal as well. These types of music really seemed to be aimed squarely at teenage boys)

Now if only more folks would step outside the box.

jjhunsecker said:

How many overgrown-boys-with-too-much-money-and-bling masquerading as men do I have to witness?

Being all 'hard' and ig'nit is not masculine or adult. It's sophomoric and childish.

Now, not all hip-hop fits this bill, but the genre has been hijacked by the more juvenile performers.


I turn the channel every time some loud-mouthed, gold-teeth-wearing, vulgar-grunting, little-boy-jersey-shirt-and-gym-shoes-wearing muthafucka comes on.

How these "men" get women is beyond me.
[Edited 10/8/05 13:45pm]

SynthiaRose said:

They don't. They get girls that are just as trifling. I guess the above criticism applies to mainstream rap, but there is plenty of hip-hop that an adult can relate to.

whodknee said:

True.

whodknee sayd:

hey, I had a disclaimer... I know there's some rarified artists in the genre.

Not enough of them, though.

SynthiaRose said:

This is what rap has become to a large extent, but it's not all it is (I know you have a disclaimer)

I'm all for folks stepping out of the box and all that, but why put down one form of music when you "find" something else?

All music genres/cultures have their good and bad points.

Terilicious said:

I think his point in the article was that a lot of things in Hip-Hop bothered him (he specified that it was hard to reconcile a love of a lot of the music with being a parent). It's almost as if he felt "too connected" to the music to continue, like a relationship gone sour. With Rock, he was saying he could now listen more objectively, purely to the words and music without worrying about it's sociological meanings.

It's like several months back there was a thread here on Elvis Presley . I wrote that I thought Elvis was an enormously talented singer. Several orgers
posted about the racist society that elevated Elvis over Black singers, and about his own alleged racism, etc etc. My feeling was : a lot of that may be true, but what does that have to do with the quality of his singing ?

SynthiaRose said:

Co-sign to both of you !
I used to be so deeply into HipHop from 1983-2000 that sometimes I kinda regret on how much music I missed out because that was my lifestyle, not just music, including everything that comes with it.Nowadays it´s a bit embarrassing to even admit that I dig HipHop cause people automatically pigeonhole you because of 50 Cents, Eminem, Lloyd Banks and so on.
The lyrics are immature,the whole posing is immature, their problems are immature, and it makes me sick to see that some women really like this shit but would ridicule real HipHop heads back in the 80´s , when the whole culture was still underground and it was still a bold move to be part of it, especially when it comes to the visual aspect.

It´s interesting to see that the whole music sort of took a 180 degree turn from being very positive, strictly anti-drug, anti-alcohol, anti-violence to totally violent, drug glorifying and ignorant.

Even the language of expression has deteriorated drastically.

People in the early 80´s like Melle Mel and IceT and KRS1 were VERY articulate people and still ghetto and had street credibility.
Today, they all just mumble their way through interviews and think it´s cool to say "N´ah mean ?" after EVERY sentence, as if the listener was retarded.

You could even learn a lot from old school rap, it was one of many ways for me to improve my English but these days I wouldn´t recommend it anymore.

I still dig a lot of rappers though, see my profile. Nas, Master Ace, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Kool Keith, Common, Little Brother are all cool and enjoyable.


I feel the same way about other genres even though I´m not that familiar with them, but I guess Metal, Skinhead music, Ska etc and to some extent even Reaggae all seem a bit immature as you get older.
[Edited 10/9/05 7:52am]

KoolEaze said: to some extent even Reaggae all seem a bit immature as you get older.
[Edited 10/9/05 7:52am]
[/quote]


HUH? How's that?
You talking about the music or the blonde rasta frat boys?

I had the same experience back in 1989. Before then I listened to mostly hip hop/R&B/funk, but grew so bored that I switched to alternative. From that point on, it was The Cure, Siouxsie And The Banshees, Love And Rockets, Ministry etc. I will pick up the occasional R&B/hip hop record by Alicia Keys, Maxwell, Outkast, Wu Tang and others, but I listen to mostly rock music now.

KoolEaze said:

Indeed.

KoolEaze said:

Great points! And very true. Puts modern day hip-hoppers to shame...

SynthiaRose said:

Old skool hip-hop & R&B >>>>> most of the new stuff(which is nothing but weak-ass vocals over beats I heard in high school & college).

And I wouldn't classify rock & roll as "white music". After all, where did it come from?

What a retarded idea for an article. I mean is that newsworthy? People have been dissing rap since day one. And they will continue to do so. Is the crap out nowadays any different than Jazzy Jeff, Hammer, Vanilla Ice, Kriss Kross, etc. from back in the day? There has always been plenty of juvenile/commercial rap or whatever you want to call it. And I hope the black guy they are talking about hasn't tuned rap out totally. Otherwise he'd be missing some of the most brilliant artists in the game like Common, The Roots, Kanye West, Madlib and De La Soul, just to name a few. In my opinion, music has no color.

pkidwell said:

pkidwell said:

while I agree with you that music has no color, the author of the article, Ta-Neshi Coates, specifically said that one of the main reasons he listened to Hip-Hop was an expression of his Black identity. He obviously felt , when he was younger, that Hip_hop is what a Black man listens to . End of story . It was only later that he realized that he could enjoy otherr types of music without having such a personal connection to it

jjhunsecker said:

Nothing at all.

He may not have deserved the title of "The King", he may have risen to the star status he did because of a racist society, he may even have been racist himself (though I don't believe this to be true) but what can't be denied is Elvis' voice. You can't listen to a song like Suspicious Minds and honestly say he didn't have a beautiful voice.

Just like all genres of music, there are good and bad artists - and how you classify them depends on your individual criteria. I fortunately grew up listenening to various types of music - thanks Pop - and realized that there usually is beauty in it all. I am part of the 1st generation of people who grew up with hip hop on the radio - although in very limited doses - and thus it will never leave me. It is me, as well as other music.

Age has a way of skewing our views, causing us to sometimes be overly judgmental when artists are just expressing what they're feeling at the time. Remember that the majority of hip hop comes from people who are 25 or younger. Remember how you were at the age? And what would you have written about if given a platform to express yourself? I'm sure it would be different than if given that same platform at 35 or 40.

So if you're no longer feeling a lot of artist in hip hop, that's cool. But don't list them as being irrelevant. I think the article was one more attempt, in a long line, to discredit hip hop. Country and western is not written for me but I still feel it. Where is the article talking about how almost every rock and roll artist today under 30 has been influenced by hip hop? If you are going to show one side, then be balanced and show the other side. Media, media, media....

whodknee said:

Co-Sign

MarcusGreen395 said:

I'm 44-years-old and I still love hip-hop. Problem is, much of what I hear today doesn't impress me like it did from the mid-80s to the mid-90s. I don't think I'm "out of it", I want something refreshing.
[Edited 10/10/05 11:25am]

uPtoWnNY said:

you aren't out of it. there is still good hip hop out there. THe masses would have you believe as many on this board also feel that hip hop is juvenile gun toting women bashing noise. And tht my be true for most mainstream hip hop. your g-units, ja rule, ect.. or your corny hip pop tthat should play only in the club ie black eyed peas, nelly, ect. But if you look under the surface and not rely on mass media you will find good hip hop. Some have flirted with mainstream sucess like Common, Slum village, MOs Def , Talib Kweli, The Roots, de la soul, blackalicious. Then there are some dope MCees like MF Doom, Little Brother. you just have to dig. Real hip hop aint dead!

Today's ALTERNATIVE to Hip-Hop

The Stills
Fall Out Boy
Moments In Grace
Queens Of The Stone Age
Juliet and The Licks
Unwritten Law
Motion City Soundtrack
Muse
Strata
Interpol

thanks for that hip hop list....i had forgotten about Mos Def....also, i just listened to Timbaland & Magoo's last album today and forgot how great Timbaland is as well as Missy Elliot.....in my opinion hip hop is stronger than ever and more mature than ever.....but the hip-pop, as i like to call it, will always get the negative press....

meow85 said:

BEAUTIFUL VOICE