This is mainly directed at the musicians(and anyone else who wants to respond)who hang out here.
My ear is not trained enough to know if I'm hearing complex harmony in a particular song or not,but it does seem like R&B/soul/funk music from the 60s/70s/80s is more sophisicated musically or sounds that way even to my untrained ears,than the R&B of the 90s & today.
Am I wrong?

Is R&B/funk from before the 90s more harmonically complex?

Or is it just the fact that back in the day,the music had more guitars,live drums,horn sections,etc., and that is fooling me into thinking that is there more complexity?

When I listen to an album like Rufus & Chaka's Ask Rufus,for instance,I say to myself,this is some sophisicated shit and I feel the same way when I listen to P-FUNK,or Stevie,or Teena.

Well?

gypsyfire said:

Mostly real instruments and better melodies back then. Today we get the Ba Boom Boom Ki of the drum machine with every track these days which makes every song sound exactly the same.

its the matter of Real Musicians playing on these albums like u mentioned Chaka,stevie,Parliament,etc.etc today its all about technology and Computers and u dont have to know a lick of music these days to be called a "Musical Genius" today's music sucks and is basically a product of people running the industry who dont know a damn thing about music.

it's like today I was listening to a Roberta Flack album and was amazed at how many musicians played on her album. Is it that we can't afford to pay a gang of real musicians anymore?

My answer to this question is yes, old R&B is actually more complex.

More interesting chord choices. Actual chord progressions. Counterpoint in the arrangements for accompanying instruments. More thought given to b-sections/bridges, alternate portions composed.

It becomes more obvious once you try learning to play various songs.

It's easier to make a slow jam today. I can make a R&B Jam in a second, all it takes is about 20 minutes 2 come up with a drum track.

Just listen to "Hot Butterfly" by Chaka, "What Dioes It Take.." by Junior Walker, "Midnight Train..." by Gladys hell even Juicy Fruit by Mtume.
Prime examples of good R&B songs which sounded easy back in the day..but I dont know if SOME current producers can do that.

but "I Want You" - Erykah "U Don't Know My Name" - Alecia, and even "Untitled" by D'Angelo have that complex feel to it that came from the 70's and 80's.

paisleypark4 said:

You Don't Know My Name is a sample.

Stymie said:

Yeah, soul music from back in the day was indeed better written. Cinister Cee hit the nail on the head. I dont know if the word I'd use would be "complex;" I mean R&B, soul and it's offshoots aren't jazz. I definitely know that Stevie Wonder and Allen Toussaint, two of my favorite writers from back then, write circles around, say Raphael Saadiq or Scott Storch.

But, that is not to say that there are musicians today who have eschewed the glory day's work aesthetic and actually make really really good contemporary Black music.

I may get flamed for this, but off of the top of my head, the arrangements and musicality of some of Jodeci's songs are pretty tight.

...


Back in the day, people were actually writing out charts with chord changes, arragements for horns, strings, etc.
the Producers were people like Thom Bell, Charles Stepney, Quincy Jones, Skip Scarborough, Isaac Hayes, Stevie Wonder -- producers that were Classically trained, and steeped in Jazz, R&B, Pop, Blues, Gospel, etc. There was a vast musical history, and they learned all of it, and channeled it into the sound.

It wasn't like today, where a producer is anybody who can "Put some Phat beats together"...

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[Edited 9/14/05 10:47am]

paligap said:

Yeah.. people classically trained in orchestration! They knew what the range of notes on each instrument was and transcribed the charts.

CinisterCee said:

Exactly--and there was also structure...you had songs that had tension and release to them, a beginning middle and end---it wasn't just a singer doing a bunch of vocal tricks for no reason...


...

paligap said:

Preach people!




tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

..

Another problem is the Feel... there's a feel of a band that's been playing together for years that can't be replicated with sampling....

For example, Slave's Slide is relatively simple in structure, yet there's a feel there that would elude most of today's artists....


...

Thanks for all the responses.
You guys know your music.

I put this in the otjher thread, and thought I'd repeat it here :

I would have to say "Yes" to that one.

The other day I was listening to some Donny Hathaway CDs from the early 1970s, and I thought "this was popular in it's day". The albums had a variety of moods, and used a variety of instrumentation. Some of the songs mixed classical strings with gospel riffs, while some featured a jazzy beat. I couldn't help but wonder if such complex music, with such variety to it would succeed today. Somehow I doubt it. Most R&B I hear today seems formulaic and rote compared to what Donny, Stevie, Marvin, Curtis, George, Sly, tc, were doing 30 years ago