I have a question. I hope I articulate this well. But I really cant see what the "skill" is in rap. For instance, in comparing it to a musician, a musician picks up a foreign instrument that they know not the inner workings and components of it is and then learns it and studies it and manipulates it and plays with it to produce a sound that the musician wants. I just cant see how musically, a person who simply raps(and even may write a song) is in the same "class" as a musician or a band. Now, I'm not bashing rap at all. I have a few rap albums(the GOOD ones) but I have heard none that could compare to say "Purple Rain" or "1999". Prince was using INSTRUMENTS and creating ARRANGEMENTS. All the rappers are doing is "talking/phrasing" and 95% of what they are writing/rapping is elementary raps about a bunch of nothing. I dont want this to turn into a bashing rap post but I want some intelligent feedback. How did rap become a legitimate art form(not speaking in terms of anything commercial). Keyword: "ART." Again, there are some exceptional elements of the genre but I think they are FEW and FAR BETWEEN in the totality of the genre.

I guess what Im saying is that it dont seem hard to be a rapper whereas it would be fairly difficult for me(a regular Joe) to pick up a guitar and play it properly so why would a rapper get the SAME credibility as a musician when the compositions of the musician are MUCH MUCH more involved than that of a rapper.

Well, you are correct in one sense, that there is a huge difference between the 2. But Hip-Hop/Rap, back in the day, was an art form all to itself. The shit you hear now is the reason why Hip-Hop has fallen completely the fuck off so people tend to treat ALL of Hip-Hop as shit.

A musicisn plays and instrument; a rapper raps. 2 different things altogether.

Did The Sugarhill Gang & Grandmaster Flash/The Furious Five share THE same house band at Sugarhill Records?

To my knowledge, they did use REAL instruments in rap/hip-hop golden years.

I also remember (from researching) that Afrika Bambaadaa and producer Arthur Baker created Planet Rock from the ground up with Roland Synths & Drum Machine (TR-808).

And lets not forget about Electro, an electronic genre that not only predates House & Techno, but also was THE original hip-hop sound!

TonyVanDam said:

Im not talking about that part of hip hop..Im talkin in Todays terms....the T.I.'s, Lil Jon's, the MAINSTREAM artists that u see inundating MTV and radio...

Do you think you could rap is fast as Bone Thugs N Harmony or Twista. You have to admit they got plenty of skill. It's not easy to rap.

LoveAlive said:

Wasn't Reggaeton suppose to destory Crunk already?

Damn, I hate it when I'm wrong!

SEXYMOFO said:

LOL! u gotta b kidding...

SEXYMOFO said:

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Was Bone Thugs N Harmony rapping or mumbling? I think they were mumbling and it is a very good example of why starting in the late 90's rap lost any chance of becoming a legitmate art form.


It is treated like legitimate art form because we are obsessed with mediocrity and stupidity in the good old USA. The more we can dumb something down the better. Look at who was elected president last year.

It is really sad what rap did to RnB music. People lump RnB in with now a days and it is pathetic.
[Edited 8/27/05 14:49pm]

LoveAlive said:

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No SexyMofo is not kidding. Lot's of people think rapping is a hard skill.
When you can see the record industry grabbing anyone off the street corner now a days.

laurarichardson said:

Well if any of you think that being an rap artist...a MC/emcee is easy, then why the hell none of us are making money like the G-Unit or Cash Money Records right now?

I can write some good poets, but I can't rap to save my own life!!!

That's why I rather learn to be a DJ, Producer, and a beatmaker! I'll will not sample. I will try hard to build my tracks from the ground up.

SEXYMOFO said:

i was gonna say that.....


I think this is why prince thought he could start rappin'....he thought it was easy and obiviously some of ya'll do too but I would dare to say, ya'll would suck with a mic in ya hand.



I'll say this about rappers...most of them anyway.....Most do write their own lyrics....stupid or not. I know there are ghost writers but I'll give them props for being able to write some of that nonsense....

So you think rapping is easy? You people are just like the people who think techno/trance/house music is easy to make. If it's so easy why don't you get out there, Rap a bit, sell some records and make a few million in the process. If it's so easy why can't Prince rap to save his life? Ok Twista might be part of mainstream MTV trash but he has got an undeniable talent. I'm not even a big rap fan. I think some of you are obsessed with the whole 'someone is only talented if they play an instrument' due to the fact Prince plays 30 or whatever it is.

THE ART OF RAP IS SAYING SOMETHING OF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD THAT MAKE SENSE
AND FLOWS OUT OF YOUR MOUTH EFFORTLESSLY, THAT TAKES MAJOR SKILLS TO PULL OFF.

SEXYMOFO said:

The only thing easy about House, Techno, & Trance is the drum programming.

The hard part is good songwriting!

House is still alive because of this (all thanks to Daft Punk).

But you really can't write any lyrics for Techno or Trance because of their shitty rules. Everything is so over the 136 BPM mark (and thats before you bring the drugs in the picture).
[Edited 8/27/05 15:51pm]

Well, SOME rappers are dope and the rest are pretty average to garbage, THAT'S the problem. It's easy to rap, but can you be good at it? Also, equating "making money" as an example of being a great rapper is ridiculous. Vanilla Ice made a ton of money. Case closed.

And I'm sorry, House/Techno - there's nothing intricate about using a 4/4 beat and then adding sounds and shit. That's doesn't impress me. As for the lyrics to House/Techno - Let's get real, NONE of those lyricists will EVER be named writer of the year by ASCAP.

TheCrucialExperience said:

Classic!!!

You should register this statement as a copyright.

I try not to color this question with questions about larger context. I try, but I fail every time.

I think this is less about musical legitimacy and musicianship and more about social context.

I'm aware of previous applications of this bias in the classical and jazz genres, so I'm less irked than I probably sound.

Rap just is. You'll find its stamp of legitimacy in the millions of dollars in business, musical and otherwise, it spurs each year.

That said, from a musicianship standpoint, I put jazz and hip-hop in the same family. In their truest forms, you'll find improvisation, creativity and mastery of rhythm.

I predict people one day will marvel at the flows of gifted rappers the way jazz nerds break down Coltrane and Miles. They'll be labeled genius decades from now.

What will the badges of approval and legitimacy be worth then? About as little as they are now.

ThreadBare said:

Good point.

Every genre has its shallow and deep side. Lets not completely diss all the shallow shit. It does what it says on the tin, even if the tin I got, is very out of date.

TonyVanDam said:

The ability to play an instrument seems like a silly way to measure whether someone is a a "legitimate artist". There's alot of great singers who would fail that test.

At the end of the day this is all about people making noises for the entertainment of other people. If somebody can express their art in a way that touches someone else, that's all the legitimacy they need.

thesexofit said:

Ditto....

thank u.

ok first off LoveAlive this really shouldn't even be a discussion. IMO u cant compare a rapper and a instrument player. they're two entirely diff things. rappers usually dont make music, they make rhymes they say stuff.

and just likes its hard to learn an instrument, its hard to yep. yes it is. anyone can TALK. anyone can talk about yadda yadda. but rapping is not entirely talkin. if someones just talkin i'm not gonna feel what they sayin. u gotta flow, u gotta make it sound GOOD. someone can be talkin about something real cool but if i aint feelin their flow then i'm not gonna listen to them. but its like i said this shouldn't even be a discussion, the best thing to compare rappin to is singing. cuz to be a good singer u gotta have good tone, u gotta be able to do things with ur voice. same with rap IMO

TonyVanDam said:

You might be right about the Sugarhill houseband, but Planet Rock relied heavily on Trans Europe Express by Kraftwerk.


Originally coming from a HipHop background, I have to say that I lost a lot of respect for the musical aspect of it the more I discovered just how cheaply most of my favourite songs were produced back in the days or even today. Sampling is alright, but some rap would just collapse without the cool backing instrumentals, and a lot of old raps contained a lot of interpolations or resung lyrics and melodies which even sounded a bit amateurish and childish.

The more I discovered Prince and old school funk, the more I lost respect for what most of these socalled rappers are doing today.Especially after witnessing Prince live in concert, I could never pay for a rap "concert" again. Why should I pay to see a bunch of drunk people high on coke or weed stumble on stage ?

I grew up with Melle Mel, Ice-T, The Soul Sonic Force, Master Ace, KRS 1,PE, Sparky D, Shante, Whodini, UTFO , Westcoast Electro,etc.etc.

It was nice while growing up, still love it today, and there is some classic rap music that will always maintain its classic status, but unfortunately some rappers these days take themselves more seriuosly than their artform, so therefore, rap is going downhill.

The best thing about rap is that it opened my mind for other lifestyles and made me want to find the original music behind the samples, like Curtis MAyfield, Rick James, James Brown etc.
I´ve always liked old school music like Cameo, Zapp, Prince, Midnight Star, SOS Band etc. but HipHop deepened my interest immensely.

That being said, there are still some great, great rappers out there...not necessarily people I would pay money to see on a stage, but great lyricists nonetheless.....Common, Kool Keith, KRS1, Nas, Master Ace, some old JayZ, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, some of Q-Tip´s stuff, The Roots, etc.etc.

Marley Marl was the first to say that HipHop is dead...that was in 1986.
[Edited 8/28/05 4:12am]

ThreadBare said:

omg....i so internet love you

and just likes its hard to learn an instrument, its hard to yep. yes it is. anyone can TALK. anyone can talk about yadda yadda. but rapping is not entirely talkin. if someones just talkin i'm not gonna feel what they sayin. u gotta flow, u gotta make it sound GOOD.


so u'r saying that it takes the same amount of skill to learn to rap well as it does to learn to play an instrument cogently? if thats indeed true, then why is it that more people would prefer to learn to rap than learn to play an instrument

LoveAlive said:

Most rappers are from the ghetto, they are surronded by Hip Hop culture and Rap music, so of course they're gonna want to rap instead of play instruments. Their heroes are people like Tupac and Biggie not Jimi Hendrix. Plus instruments can be expensive.

Most rappers are from the ghetto, they are surronded by Hip Hop culture and Rap music, so of course they're gonna want to rap instead of play instruments. Their heroes are people like Tupac and Biggie not Jimi Hendrix. Plus instruments can be expensive.[/quote]



WHAT A STEREOTYPICAL comment to make....just for ya knowledge...Im 24 and from the ghetto and who was my first musical hero....CHAKA KHAN of all people...then STEVIE WONDER...then at 12 I discovered a Man by the name of PRINCE and it was all over....

It's legitimate. I thought we settled this in the 80's.

Stax said: