i don't know anything about the lyrical nature of the record but the title is directly influenced by kabbalah and the kabbalah center. "defying gravity" is the logo on a t shirt at the kabbalah center and its also a catchphrase of sorts within that religious community. kabbalah water supposedly helps in "defying gravity" as does belief, at all, in kabbalism. apparantly the strength of kabbalah is so strong that when, in the midst of a some meditations and practices, people or objects can defy gravity; apparantly levitation can be achieved.

i've read a few things about kabbalah and it really is very intriguing. the kabbalah center, though, seems to be more interested in making money (t shirts, water, cards, hats, etc) and now, with a new fragrance and a new cd called "defying gravity", it seems like madonna is more moved by the monetary benefits of kabbalah rather than the spiritual benefits.

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[Edited 6/19/05 13:53pm]

We'll see if it actually ends up with that title.

SassyBritches said:

Personally, I don't think Madonna was ever interested in whatever scant spiritual benefits the Kaballah might hope to offer.

Why do religious people always want to push their cults on us?

yknow, it's concepts like that and Rainbow Children that turn me right off.

They should at least translate the things they've learned into something less literal.

VoicesCarry said:

Like what kind of monetary benefit??? Im puzzled how you could see that she has made money out of studying the kabbalah. From what i can tell shes been donating a lot of her own personal wealth to various kabbalah organisations.

Im baffled as to why people are so obssessed with madonnas involvement in the kabbalh. She's been studying it for 8 years (that indicates more than a passing fad!), and i can honestly say as a massive madonna fan, ive never ever felt like she was pushing this in my face. That would go against a lot of what she stands for - freedom of thought and expression.

I personally, am sick of hearing about it. Is it a religion, is it a cult.....who cares? Let her get on with it. She feels it has a lot of benefits in her life, and one could hardly accuse her of simply following it as a celebrity fad to benefit her careeer. From what I can tell its done more harm to her career than good.

dreamfactory313 said:

I don't know but they should stop...

CrozzaUK said:

Do I know what her investments are? No. But I do suspect she's been smart enough to trade those donations for investments in the $40 Kaballah water bottles and the $50 red thread bracelets, and so on.

I was listening to a radio talk show host on the way to work the other day who was commenting on how the teachings of Kabbalah were being co-opted by certain "crackpot celebrities". Since this gentleman is Jewish I decided to check up on some of the comments he made. Especially the one where he said that Kabbalah is not just walked in to. For serious students of the religion, it is not approached until a thorough study of the Torah and Talmud have been completed.

This text is from a source other than The Kabbalah Centre...

Mysticism in Judaism

When non-Jews ask about Judaism, they commonly ask questions like: Do you believe in heaven and hell? In angels or the devil? What happens to the soul after death? What is the nature of G-d and the universe? The answers to questions like these define most religions; in fact, I have heard some people say that the purpose of religion is to answer these kinds of questions. Yet in Judaism, most of these cosmological issues are wide open to personal opinion. The areas of Jewish thought that most extensively discuss these issues, Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism, were traditionally not even taught to people until the age of 40, when they had completed their education in Torah and Talmud.


Kabbalah: The Misunderstood Doctrine

Kabbalah is one of the most grossly misunderstood parts of Judaism. I have received several messages from non-Jews describing Kabbalah as "the dark side of Judaism," describing it as evil or black magic. On the other end of the spectrum, I receive many messages wanting to learn more about the trendy doctrine popularized by various Jewish and non-Jewish celebrities.

These misunderstandings stem largely from the fact that the teachings of Kabbalah have been so badly distorted by mystics and occultists. Kabbalah was popular among Christian intellectuals during the Renaissance and Enlightenment periods, who reinterpreted its doctrines to fit into their Christian dogma. In more recent times, many have wrenched kabbalistic symbolism out of context for use in tarot card readings and other forms of divination and magic that were never a part of the original Jewish teachings. Today, many well-known celebrities have popularized a new age pop-psychology distortion of kabbalah (I have heard it derisively referred to as "crap-balah") that has more in common with the writings of Deepak Chopra than with any authentic Jewish source.

http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


As with anything being sold...Caveat emptor


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

CrozzaUK said:

i could not tell you for sure what madonna's financial involvement with the kabbalah center is. what i can tell you is that every penny she donates is tax refundable. i also know that she has helped to build several kabbalah centers with this tax refundable money and i would be surprised if she wasn't receiving some sort of financial benefits from the sales of kabbalah water and 26 dollar a piece sales of red kabbalah string.

as for the sincerity of kabbalah...i think this kabbalah center version of the religion is a hoax. i've been reading several books on kabbalah (Rabbi David A. Cooper's God is a Verb, Gershom Scholem's Kabbalah, and Joseph Leon Blau's The Christian Interpretation of the Cabala) and so much of what they speak and write of is not represented through the Kabbalah center. its my own personal opinion - based on the philosophies taught in these books - that someone truly practicing Kabbalah would not feel the need to push it on the general public (which, in my opinion, is what madonna does when she mentions it in every interview, record, and concert).

Madonna's involvement in Kabbalah doesn't bother me one bit.Likewise,I'm not bothered by Prince's involvement in JW.It's their personal lives.I can't see why so many fans trip over this stuff.Most pop stars and musicians always become "enlightened" after many years in the music biz anyway.They need something to believe in,something besides fame and fortune to give them hope.There was a time when Donna Summer used to have orgasms on her records (lol) and now she is a Born Again Christian.If Kabbalah makes Madonna a happy,fulfilled person,then good for her.


As for the rumored album title "Defying Gravity"...so far,the Kabbalah references in Madonna's work has been subtle.She's been studying Kabbalah since 1997,but albums like 'Music' and 'American Life' are not exactly what I would consider "commercials" for the Kabbalah,lol.

SassyBritches said:

I really dont think she does push it on the public. I believe it is the current media obsession with it that simply represents her this way. It is they who ask the questions in interviews, and whilst Madonna may not shy away from answering them, one could hardly accuse her of ramming it down peoples throats. If I feel that way as a madonna fan who follows what she does closely, how can some one with perhaps only a passing interest feel she is pushing her "cult" on them. People should learn to be more accepting of other peoples opinions and lifestyle choices.

As for her mentioning it on record. I dont recall a single song in which she has pushed this "religion", yet another misconception. A bit like the media blurb that her lest record was anti-Bush - it wasn't at all. American Life is talking more about herself than it is making a political statement.

CrozzaUK said:

As Madonna herself once noted....After the "Sex" era,alot of people wanted her to end up lonely,angry and regretful.Thanks in no small part to Kabbalah,the complete opposite has happened.She's happier than she's ever been,and alot of people can't accept that,so they criticize and question her involvement in Kabbalah.

CrozzaUK said:

Exactly.This is what pisses me off about the fans who complain.It's not as if she is preaching,or criticizing folks who are not into Kabbalah.The Kabbalah references in her music and concerts are so subtle that nobody really notices them.Also,many of the Kabbalah ideas are universal themes that are embraced by many other religions.

DavidEye said:

why the denial?

madonna's new "spiritual being" is manifest on songs like american life, hollywood, i'm so stupid, easy road, and many of the other new songs. wearing shirts that say "kabbalists do it better" and videos such the one for dia another day are evidence that madonna is pushing kabbalah into the public eye. let's not even get into all the imagery of the last tour or the photos from the latest ladies home journal (um, you know, the ones where she's reading the Torah in what looks to be an old library). should i even bother mentioning the references to the kabbalah center that come with the children's books?

my "interest" in madonna's involvement with kabbalah is not because i think she's in a cult and needs to get out immediately. i just don't think she's studying true kabbalah. i think she - along with all these other celebrities (except maybe demi moore) who've jumped on the "got spirit" campaign - has found this psuedo-spiritual version of kabbalah and, in error, is presenting herself as a kabbalist. i've never once heard madonna speak of studying the torah. you don't just wake up one day and decide that because you've gone to a religious center you are suddenly that religion. the kabbalah center teaches that you don't even have to know hebrew to read the zorah. just look at the letters and you're connection with God is opened, so they say. this is ridiculous.

anyway, someone mentioned above (cruzza, maybe) that because they are a fan and they don't see anything being pushed, then i must be mistaken. well, i've been a madonna fan since i was about 6 (yep, i was gay since i was a little kid, lol). i've followed her interviews, concerts, cds, public statements, etc. my mother, on the other hand hasn't nor have many of my friends. somehow, though, they all know that madonna is a self proclaimed kabbalist. i wonder how? oh yeah, i guess its all the media. madonna, her music, and her image building have nothing to do with it. c'mon...as madonna fans you guys should know by now that madonna only USES the media to help promote the image she is using at any given time. why would this suddenly change just because she's studying kabbalah?

"except maybe Demi Moore"


hey,why does she get a pass? Do you consider her and Ashton to be true Kabbalists?

SassyBritches said:

Oh, you know you love the tired old bitch!!

GangstaFam said:

Of course he does.He'll be first in line to buy 'Defying Gravity'

Meh, i'll let Madonna do whatever she wants, if she doesn't then the final product will be lackluster.

If kaballah makes Madonna happy i say go for it, and if she wants to push her beliefs into her art, it's fine with me. Most of Ray of Light is composed of kaballah knowledge as well, and that is her most critically accliamed work.

Before kaballah came into her life, Madonna always had religious imagery in her videos, concerts etc. and no one cared. Probably because it was Christian imagery, and christianity is mainstream. Kaballah is not as mainstream and people dismiss it because they don't understand what it is she's doing.

DavidEye said:

i've never heard her talking about it. its a part of her private life that she seems serious about. really, its nothing more than an assumption and, obviously, i could be wrong.

jayaredee said:

An oxymoron if there ever was one.

GangstaFam said:

i do love her...and i don't even think she's tired!

VoicesCarry said:

whatever, just let her do her thing.

jayaredee said:

no. people dismiss things when they are spoken of incorrectly. i remember LOTS of commotion when madonna used christian imagery in her videos. damn, you die hard madonna fans seem to forget about the history of your idol.

jayaredee said:

Uh, who said I wasn't?

SassyBritches said:

Honestly,I agree with some of the things you say.But for me personally,it's just not a problem.I never even really think about Kabbalah.I enjoy Madonna's music and her amazing concerts,but I'm not too concerned with whether or not she is a "real" Kabbalist,or whether or not it's a celebrity cult,lol.It's her life.One thing I will say is....she seems much happier and fulfilled these days.She's at peace with herself.If Kabbalah (or her version of it) has something to do with that,then I am happy for her.

SassyBritches said:

And there is a lot of commotion now when she's studying kaballah.

Anyways, your topic is based on a rumored title, and the rumored fragerance which has already been dismissed

jayaredee said:

Good. Jenny and Britney can handle the branding, let Madonna handle the music.

jayaredee said:

You bring up an interesting point.I wonder what people would be saying if Madonna embraced Christianity instead?

VoicesCarry said:

Indeed, i doubt that Madonna would have dropped a fragerance anyways.
But then again, never say never.