Stymie said:

I was gonna come back and edit my post about Jermaine's appearance this AM coz I left-out something VERY, VERY important, but since you responded, I'll just add on to your comment.

Jermaine also said that Michael would NOT be seeking any counseling. He said that his family's love is the only counseling Michael needs. That statement also troubled me,too, coz I would think he would seek some sort of "outside" help just to help him deal with the stress and probably depression that resulted from the trial and media ALONE. In addition, whether or not Michael is a child molester is a moot point coz at this stage, nothing has been proven. However, he and his FAMILY keep implying that Michael has deep-rooted resentment, pain, or whatever about not being able to have been a child that has somehow arrested Michael's development, so why don't they do something about it?

If Michael were my brother, I'd encourage him to seek professional help in dealing with this "void." What is so WRONG with being an adult? Why can't Micahel also find some fulfillment in being a 46-year old MAN ??? Jermaine said that Michael didn't want to discuss "adult" topics because the world is in such a dark place. Well "not talking" about problems is not gonna make them go away. Also it's by communication that we learn how to better deal with issues by at least ATTEMPTING to understand where they are coming from. To me, it's sad that the family just seem to accept that Michael is just too "fragile" (???) to confront even world issues from an adult's perspective while at the same time assuring the world via the media that Michael is incredibly strong. Well, "actions speak louder than words."

It's a shame that Michael would prefer to "deal" with this problem with the same people who have contributed to it. There has got to be an ethical, professional "outsider" that WOULD have Michael's best interest at heart. Hey, they found Mesereau, didn't they?? I'm starting to think that the FAMILY doesn't want Michael to seek REAL counseling coz maybe there IS something to hide in his past. (I'm NOT necessarily referring to molestation OR ANYTHING ILLEGAL.) Jermaine's comments in a way reminded me a little of Michael Corleone's in the Godfather when "Kate" his wife was about to leave him. The Jackson's just want to keep it in the family as far as Michael's own assertions of child abuse are concerned, but at the same time they will allow a slew of unqualified people to take to surround him to tell him that he's OK. Well it's HIS life and choice, but this "Michael lost his childhood" explanation or excuse is becoming old coz they refuse to acknowledge and therefore address the "problem" coz that's EXACTLY what it is, all SPIN aside.

***And to respond to another post without starting a whole new thread. The more I think about it, maybe a malicious prosecution suit WOULD be the BEST thing for the family to do. If they are gonna continue this "vendetta" business, then they should expose Sneddon, et al. As a result, the ENTIRE COUNTRY might finally learn the TRUTH coz at this point it's just ALL speculation. If they want to risk opening the can of worms again, well, do it. Some things are WORTH the risk.
[Edited 6/16/05 5:18am]

It will be a shame if MJ doesn't get some professional help.This trial should have been a wake-up call for him and his family.He's been given a second chance,so he should seize the opportunity to get his life back together.He needs to deal with his various issues,such as his inability to grow up and develop normal,healthy relationships with people his own age.He needs to let go of his childhood and concentrate on being an adult.Without counseling,I'm afraid he will become a lonely,eccentric old man who can't let go of his pain and misery.

DavidEye said:

You mean he already isn't?

I was waiting for you to comment on MJ's acqittal

Why have you been so silent these last few days?

Cloudbuster said:

well yeah,but that's why he needs counseling

DavidEye said:

I don't think he needs to completely lose his childlike ways, as long as he's having fun and not hurting anyone then there's no harm in it. But he really does need a better balance in his life. I don't blame him for wanting to stay away from the world as it can indeed be a horrid place. But the unfortunate thing is that the real world keeps intruding on him regardless of his attempts to remain as secluded as possible, so he's got to face up to it at some point and at least get some sort of guidance to help put his past behind him. He'll never move on otherwise. It's very sad.

DavidEye said:

You really think I could be arsed to trawl thru a ton of posts by media fed muppets who think he's guilty anyway?

Cloudbuster said:

Yes, the world can be a horrid place, but in order to make it better, we have to understand the source of its dysfunction. Michael has said that he wants to make the world a better place through his music and association with children. However, writing music without truly investigating world issues from an adult's perspective is simply shallow. It's like putting a band-aid on a severe burn without really understanding how the burn got there in the first place.

I know I've been critical in this thread,but I'm really concerned about Michael and the Jackson family in general. Believe it or not, I've been a fan for two decades. I just see A LOT of denial going on, a lot of blaming outside sources, however justifiable it might be, WITHOUT really coming to terms with their OWN issues. I'm not suggesting that they need to BARE THEIR SOULS to the press. But a simple acknowledgement rather than ALWAYS taking this defiant attitude would at least suggest that they are TRULY trying to grow as a family, as individuals, and as artists. I, for one, would have a lot more sympathy for their situation because frankly, I'm started to lose a certain amount of respect for them, and I NEVER in a MILLION YEARS would have thought I could say that. As a matter of fact, I think that even non-fans would at least "soften" their criticism if the family or Michael himself would just acknowledge that some problems, not necessarily concerning child molestation, exists and are being addressed PROFESSIONALLY.

That's the only way that Michael will truly "mature" coz the family has had its chance for many, many years, and their "counsel" surely hasn't seemed to help matters. Yeah, Michael is this icon but also just a man. And whether or not Michael WANTS to be an adult, well just by virtue of his age, he is. Hey, if Michael were YOUR best friend or brother, wouldn't you want him to become the best ADULT that he can be rather than be locked into childhood due to past problems?? Anything less is like telling a child of an alcoholic that it's OK to be angry all of his life coz his family-life was a mess rather than dealing with that anger, and being a happier, productive, functioning, and WHOLE person. The truth is that being a millionaire super-star really has NOTHING to do with ANY of those things.
[Edited 6/16/05 5:53am]

Isel said:

Yeah, I agree. But still, I think it's best he tries to strike a balance as opposed to just cutting his ties completely with his childlike ways. He's so accustomed to it that having it removed would be like losing a limb. It would probably do an equal amount of damage. Balance is indeed required, me thinks.

Cloudbuster said:

You might have a point there about a complete break coz Michael CAN'T change everything thing that he is. And part of that childlike "nature" as far as optimism and innocence are concerned is endearing. However, I don't really see that, ya know?? I see a guy that is taking on a role in a way without really being "optimistic," and allowing naivete to be an excuse for being misled and justification for NOT wanting to enter the ADULT world, so I wouldn't call that optimistic,but more of a vicious cycle. Look, loss of innocence isn't necessarily a bad thing. After all, "good" children DO eventually become "good" adults. I probably didn't explain that very well. But I guess I'm talking about Michael's underlying issues and emotional responses as far as dealing with even friends, family, associates as well as the media.

Well, it is what it is.

I understand all your points on him getting professional help, but I think you also have to see that he's a burned child (I hope I remember this phrase correctly). He surely has problems to trust others but who coul blame him?
It's a difficult situation.

dorgish said:

Why hello, Dorothy. I'm sure we'll get along swimmingly.



To be honest, I thought the exact same thing. But I also thought MJ might also bring an extortion suit against the Chandlers. He didn't. Instead, he wound up paying a huge settlement on claims that were supposedly bogus. Lookit, this ain't sex assault, this is child molestation. You FIGHT that.






Seriously, I wish you would.



Well, seemingly you recognize the possibility that MJ could be a pedophile, which is altogether distinct from being a child molester.

And let's be clear, Joe is to blame for how MJ turned out. MJ fans and non-fans alike would be stupid not to see that.




But, my dear sweet dorothy, I only met you today!

lil said, and I'm paraphrasing, that one would be a "fool" to think that there was evidence to support allegations of child molestation against Michael. She also spoke in rather absolute terms of MJ's "true" innocence, which I interpreted to mean of past and present allegations. All I did was cite some of the circumstances surrounding past investigations and settlements to question that assertion. I also said the circumstances are such that we'll never really know the truth.

(side note: is it possible that MJ settled because he knew a criminal trial would bring out his sleeping habits with boys, and that he could be convicted because a jury wouldn't understand that "bed" doesn't equal "sex"? if the answer is yes, then he knew the practice was dangerous and continued to do it anyway. one must then ask herself why he continued to do so.)




Well, I love MJ's music as well. And I may not have had the experiences you've had, but the issues to me are really simple, as I explained in my previous post.




I never really said MJ abused the kid. I'm not saying that as a matter of law he should not have been acquitted (in fact, several times I said he probably should be acquitted). All I'm saying is he did everything he could to create the impression of an inappropriate relationship, and he did so in a very public way.

And as for allegations that he is a child molester or a pedophile, I don't know. I can't say. But I do know that they are issues that can't be fully resolved.




I'd echo that. We didn't see eye to eye, but he was a passionate guy who was knowledgeable about this whole MJ issue, as well as music too!

calldapplwondery83 said:

No, I agree with you that it's a difficult situation. And yes, he is a "burned child" so that's all the more reason for him to seek OUTSIDE professional help. As far as trust is concerned, well he HAS trusted people, but unfortunately the WRONG ONES. Like I said, it's like this "self-fulfilling prophecy" in a way. Those are the reasons that I would hope the Michael would take the initiative to find a reputable professional to just help him deal with these and other issues that might be troubling him. And I don't want to imply that Michael needs to be placed on meds., enter into YEARS of psycho-therapy. or anything as severe as that. I'm just suggesting that Michael find a professional to help him develop some strategies to rebuild that trust, confront his apparent emotional pain, then mature just enough to look at the world (life?) as more of a "gray" area, not completely bad or good. In fact, I would like for Michael to be truly "childlike" again, with a renewed, but realistic, optimism about people, accepting their vices and virtues, AS WELL AS HIS OWN. If Michael could form a more healthy outlook, then he might able to accept SOME responsibility for his own actions that contributed to the "negative" situations and not make those same mistakes again. I just don't think that his family's love alone or the even his fan's support will accomplish that on an emotional level because they seem to want to protect him from EVERYTHING, EVEN THE TRUTH, which is completely understandable.

Hey, maybe Mesereau knows a good family counselor??
[Edited 6/16/05 9:16am]

Then again, some will say he DOES trust people too much, the wrong ones apparentaly, and this was what got him into this situation in the first place.

I was afraid MJ wasnt going to seek professional help.

calldapplwondery83 said:

Nope. Here's what got the man into trouble.


+



+



times INFINITY

=

calldapplwondery83 said:

Ya know, there is NOTHING wrong with trust. It's really about making healthy choices, learning WHO to trust for the truth, then cutting loose the ones that will tell you what YOU want to hear for THEIR OWN gain. In a way, Michael's situation is like a cycle of attracting the "wrong" or maybe even abusive people to create a "familiar" but destructive environment. In a way, it's like a victim of domestic violence getting into the same situations repeatly coz that is all he/she knows??? That's a possibility.
[Edited 6/16/05 8:51am]

namepeace said:

C'mon why you gotta show a blonde kid,

Mac is the only blonde kid he hung with, most of them kids were dark or non-white. A lot of Black folks tend to thing Mike has a thing for white kids. Jordy was mixed but looked filipino, two other kids were hispanic. Brett Barnes who spent months sleeping with up mike until 19 years of age. Mike spent more time with this kid than any other. Not that it makes it better if he did something, but let's keep it real.





All the gay guys I know were going crazy over him..
[Edited 6/16/05 8:57am]

Man, Brett Barnes iS FOINE!!!!

Hater. Get your facts straight. Juror number one said that he thought that it was likely that Michael Jackson had molested in the past. He didn't say that he believed that he did. There is a difference between those 2. He also said on Good Morning America that he believed that Michael Jackson did not molest Gavin.

Jurors talk about the choice made
By Quintin Cushner/Staff Writer


Juror Susan Derr Drake said her life changed completely during the four-month Michael Jackson trial, as she balanced working as a horse trainer and riding instructor with hearing evidence in the high-profile case.

The 51-year-old Santa Ynez woman left home each weekday by 7:15 a.m. for the trip to the Santa Maria Court Complex and her role as Juror No. 3.

After a full day of testimony, Drake left the courthouse at 2:30 p.m., only to arrive at 3:30 p.m. at the Santa Ynez Valley barn where she often instructed riders until 8 at night.

During the trial, jurors bonded with each other and often shared potluck lunches, Drake said during an interview Tuesday.

The eight-woman, four-man jury came from a wide variety of ages and backgrounds.

"That made it more interesting," Drake said. "That allowed us to share our life experiences."

Jurors plan to hold a barbecue and reunite once the public interest in their lives diminishes, she said.

Drake expressed admiration for Superior Court Judge Rodney Melville, another avid horseback rider.

"One of my favorite moments was when the energy of the room was intensifying, and he told (prosecutor Ron Zonen) just to relax and drop his head, and lick and chew like a horse. I loved that moment."

She does not believe Jackson ever behaved inappropriately with children, despite prosecutors' claims that the entertainer has molested boys for more than 15 years.

Juror Ray Hultman is more ambivalent about Jackson's relationship with children.

The 62-year-old Santa Maria man said he believes Jackson likely did molest children in the past. However, the civil engineer could not find beyond a reasonable doubt that Jackson molested a 13-year-old Los Angeles boy in 2003.

"The counts were very specific about who Michael Jackson molested and the time frame for which it occurred," Hultman said.

The majority of jurors believed from the onset that Jackson was not guilty, Hultman said. He and others eventually agreed that there was enough reasonable doubt to find the entertainer "not guilty" on 10 felony counts involving conspiracy and child molestation.

"There were possible scenarios that could be shown about Michael Jackson's non-guilt," he said.

Drake said her decision to acquit Jackson was not so difficult. "In my mind, this case was full of problems," Drake said. "Timelines, testimony inconsistencies, motivations of financial gain and revenge. Credibility and reasonable doubt were our focus."
Despite her preference for the defense version of events, Drake had praise for attorneys on both sides.

"I felt prosecutor Ron Zonen was powerful in his delivery," Drake said. "And defense attorney (Tom) Mesereau was brilliant in presenting the results of his investigation."

Drake owns two of Jackson's albums and has nothing bad to say about him. "I wish Michael Jackson a speedy healing from this experience," she said.

Hultman believes Jackson is a musical genius, but said he has mixed feelings about the man. "I have a hard time respecting someone who admits to sleeping with young boys," he said.

http://www.santamariatime...news01.txt


There is a lot of self rightous people on this board. *Cough* Vain Andy. Just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make their opinion wrong. I feel that Michael is innocent of all of this. I feel this because I prayed nearly every single night that Michael would get a fair trial, that the truth would come out and if he was innocent that he be aquitted and if not that justice would prevail. I also prayed for the election that the best one for the presidency would win. It was Bush. Even though, I wanted Kerry to win, I had to accept that it was God's plan to have Bush in the office. God brought the truth out in this case and Michael is innocent.

lilgish said:

MJ is quite the trainspotter for boys that will grow up later to be good looking men.

Chico319 said:

lilgish said:

I was trying to use a cartoon image that would highlight the humor. The color had nothing really to do with it. I wouldn't care if the kid were as light as Brad Pitt or as dark as Wesley Snipes. It's still creepy.

namepeace said:

Like I said, some will say so. I was merely pointing out that trust to outsiders is surely an issue to the family.

With all that has been said, I wish the Jackson family happiness.

calldapplwondery83 said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but MJ's habits are, first and foremost, the issue to deal with. If he doesn't take kids into his bed, there's no way schemers can accuse him of impropriety. He never should have gone near children in that way in the first place, and if he didn't know it was dangerous (and wrong) before 1993, he damn sure should have known afterwards, But he didn't listen to the ones (Quincy, and I'd bet Johnnie Cochran) who warned him about that.

So blame schemers, sure. But blame MJ. First and foremost. The equation doesn't lie.

Remember The Time

The Official Michael Jackson in Court Thread http://www.prince.org/msg/8/131920
The Official Michael Jackson in Court Thread II http://www.prince.org/msg/8/134555
The Official Michael Jackson in Court Thread III http://www.prince.org/msg/8/135852
The Official Michael Jackson in Court Thread IV http://www.prince.org/msg/8/136658
The Official Michael Jackson in Court Thread V http://www.prince.org/msg/8/137428
The Official Michael Jackson in Court Thread VI http://www.prince.org/msg...sg_2456182
The Official Michael Jackson in Court Thread VIII http://www.prince.org/msg/8/141307
The Official Michael Jackson in Court Thread IX http://www.prince.org/msg/8/142246
The Official Michael Jackson in Court Thread VI http://www.prince.org/msg/8/138894
The Official Michael Jackson in Court Thread VII http://www.prince.org/msg/8/139975


Missing a few but here are most of the threads...

Isel said:

June Chandler did not testify that MJ molested her son, some of the other 1108 witnesses did. She testified that MJ spent several nights with her son on different occassions, while she was also there, but she never witnessed anything.

Also, there were 3 jurors who said he may have molested in the past. Jurors #1, #2 and grandma who's allegedly shopping a book deal, I think she's juror #5. Juror #1 has said many conflicting things over the past couple of days. He didn't believe the 1108 witnesses and he didn't believe Culkin, Barnes and Robson. He based his belief in MJ's guilt on 3 boys who say they were never molested, yet he still didn't believe the 1108 witnesses (no wonder he was talked out of his opinion). Juror #2 said he didn't completely believe that youth pastor that testified, so who does he think MJ molested? Probably Culkin, Barnes, and Robson, once again. I haven't heard grandma's reasons.

Also the youth pastors' story is not believable in my opinion. Did you read his testimony and the cross? Did you know he was denying it until he was talked into admitting something by the police?
[Edited 6/16/05 11:38am]
[Edited 6/16/05 11:49am]

www.firenancygrace.com

never mess with mj fans

lilgish said:

It appears as if I overreacted about the MJ-in-pajamas thing. It must not have fazed the jury.

It also appears that the confidence of dag, luv4oneanotha, lilgish, Marrk and others was fully justified.
[Edited 6/16/05 12:28pm]