It's the same as the Sex Pistols. They had one album. They made a huge splash in the short time they were around. Sure, their antics and the whole Sid & Nancy thing threw them into mythological rock 'n' roll folklore, but they did their shit in their own time.

GangstaFam said:

No, no, I'm NOT getting into Nirvana arguments, ok? NOT

See, you think Nirvana maintained their artistic relevance and had a huge influence. Which, I'm sure, they did. It doesn't matter how much they sold, therefore (even though they were still posting huge numbers, I might add). So by your logic, they are icons.

/Nirvana fans are worse than Michael Jackson fans, I swear.

VoicesCarry said:

Interesting. Anyway imagine if hammer died in 1991 just after "too legit too quit"

hammer is an icon to me. Icons mean shit in the media. Mayrlin monroe (spelling) meant jack shit to me and everyone I know, yet she is an icon of this century for being a good looking, silly voiced no talent girl. Nothing against her, but she sucked.

As for nirvana, their presence is still being felt today. All u gotta do is look around ur college and see nirvana jakcets still being worn by a new generation of people. Kirk is an icon to many I guess.

Moonbeam said:

I think she defined a moment. I don't think she had a terrible amount of influence. I don't think she defined an era. Listen to what you're saying.

GangstaFam said:

Exactly. But again, we have a premature end. Would they have faded into obscurity and been forgotten? I don't know. Sid and Nancy's antics have overshadowed a lot of their contributions in pop culture.

thesexofit said:

The reason Monroe is an icon is because that whole persona became a template for so much that came after. And again, premature death. It's the same thing with James Dean. Whether or not you liked them is really irrelevant to the big picture.
[Edited 5/13/05 17:00pm]

VoicesCarry said:

I'm not really following, but it's okay. The point is pretty undeniable to me.

I don't know what I said to put me in the league of MJ fans, but whatevs.

VoicesCarry said:

I was a teenager in the mid 90s and virtually every girl I knew worshipped at the feet of both Alanis and Gwen. Until Britney came along, they were it. Alanis and Gwen both had a lot of influence on teen attitudes and appearance. Musically? Not so much. But as I mentioned, that wasn't a pre-requisite for icon status anymore.

GangstaFam said:

I've had nasty fights with Nirvana fans before. They are a stingy bunch. This may or may not include you, although the "fucking insane" comment clued me into the fact that it might.

Moonbeam said:

Then the word icon is worth shit. Influencing fashion for 5 minutes? Shit. I'm not talking about influencing teenage girls here, I think you know what I mean by a real icon.
[Edited 5/13/05 17:02pm]

VoicesCarry said:

It is pretty crazy to deny that Kurt Cobain was an icon before his death. If there was a single icon of the 90s, it's him. I'm not the biggest fan they ever had (I dislike most other grunge), although I like Nevermind and In Utero.

yeah ur right I guess. If only brando died in the 60's huh? We could say that about many washed up big stars now (like jacko ).

Anyway, alanis and myself were never compatible. I was into oasis and britpop then, seems funny how I grew up to like "worse" music when I got older.

As for mariah. Shee had so many no 1's and its odd as I never understood why? no 1's have often represented the most washed down shit that causal music buyers who are not passionate about music buy. Mariah's early no 1's fit that. WTF kept making her go to no1? Same with boyz2men? no 1's and edgy or original do not often go together.

But then, I listen to alot of fomulaic stuff too voices, so ur mariah loving ass is good to c.
[Edited 5/13/05 17:04pm]

Moonbeam said:

Except I never denied it. I just don't know if he would be as iconic today if he had lived. Death really brings a lot to the table in terms of pop culture relevance, you know. A lot.

VoicesCarry said:

Gwen is still influencing fashion many years after the fact. That's hardly 5 minutes. I will agree that the luster and mystique of icons can't compare to years past, but that is a moot point.

I had no way of knowing the reception of Gwen or Alanis outside of teen circles in the mid 90s because, well, I was a teenager.

thesexofit said:

Hey, I'm not going to say that Mariah's a great songwriter or artist in the studio or shit like that. I just like her voice.

She is what she is. A pop star who could have done a lot better with her talent. It's too bad she didn't take the high road, but hey, I can enjoy her bullshit along the way.
[Edited 5/13/05 17:07pm]

VoicesCarry said:

I agree that premature death does have an impact. But you said, "They're legendary icons becuase he died. That alone sent them into the stratosphere." That seems to negate Kurt's icon status before his death.

Moonbeam said:

You realize that every young celebrity "influences fashion" (whatever that means), right? It certainly doesn't make them fucking fashion icons. Coco Chanel, maybe, but NOT Stefani et al.

VoicesCarry said:

I do realize that, but one of the first things people say about Gwen is that she has a great sense of style. That people still say that means that she must have somehow tapped into something that made her style both approachable and interesting. You don't see that with the Spice Girls.

Moonbeam said:

I think (and this is only my personal opinion, so don't start skewering me, dear Nirvana fans) that Nirvana, like Alanis, captured a moment for a generation. Unfortunately, Kurt died. Death sort of freeze-frames that moment forever, and it really did send them into the stratosphere. The reality of mortality is always prescient to youth, and it never fails to fascinate. We always like to ask what might have been? Had Alanis died in '97, yeah, she'd be an icon.

See, had Monroe lost her looks, aged, and faded into obscurity (which she would have done, since her commercial image relied so much on her beauty and youth), she would not be nearly what she is today. Monroe really had nothing to fall back on. We like to say that she was a real actress, but one look at Bus Stop tells you that she didn't have much range. She had a character, like Chaplin's tramp, that she always played in the movies. The character worked for her because people liked the mix of vulnerability and sexuality. It also worked because in the middle of the repressed 50's, this was hot stuff. With her death, eternal youth and beauty was ensured, and her image became something that could be copied over and over again, albeit always less successfully because no live woman could compare with her mystique. Now had Brigitte Bardot died in 1960 after a few of those iconic bedroom scenes, there is no doubt we'd see her posters plastered everywhere and her face on mugs and shit. However, she's now just an old crazy French woman with a lot of dogs.
[Edited 5/13/05 17:19pm]

I think the truth of this argument falls somewhere in the middle.

They don't make 'em like they used to. You rarely find someone like Prince or Bowie or Madonna or whoever that has a lasting musical, stylistic and cultural impact. You get the rare total package with the chops, vision and style to really inherit the 'genius' logo, see Beck and Bjork, but they rarely have the kind of commercial success that artists had before.

But when I think of 90's and artists that defined their time, I think of people like Gwen, Mariah, Courtney Love, Alanis, Celine, etc. I don't think any of them are that good, but they all were huge beyond belief in their own way. With Gwen, you had kinda the skater punk riot grrl thing going on, which was a big fad. Courtney and Alanis had the angry, young female thing going on, another big fad. Alanis was also kinda a frontrunner in the whole Lilith Fair-style artist that was so big in the late 90's. I know these are mostly forgotten trends now, but they were some of the biggest musical trends happening in that decade. As were the big, cheesy power balladeers like Mariah and Celine.

VoicesCarry said:

You just said it yourself. That's why both Kurt and Alanis are both icons.
[Edited 5/13/05 17:19pm]

GangstaFam said:

Yeah, I'd call them fads. You see, that would also mean calling Jennifer Lopez an icon and I just can't bring myself to do it.

Moonbeam said:

Nope, that's why Kurt is an icon. Because his moment is immortalized with death. Alanis' is not, and she is forgotten. The end.

There are plenty of people who have captured a moment for a generation. It is either solidifying that moment with tragedy or holding on to that moment with talent, skill or chutzpah that defines an icon.
[Edited 5/13/05 17:22pm]

VoicesCarry said:

But she's still an icon.

VoicesCarry said:

Nobody has forgotten Alanis. She's still a household name. The end.

GangstaFam said:

Every kid today knows Monroe. No kid today knows Brigitte Bardot. Bardot is seen as just another Monroe follower.
[Edited 5/13/05 17:24pm]

VoicesCarry said:

What I'm saying is that it's rare to see someone's influence and popularity last these days.

Those artists are about as close to iconic as you'll get for their time.

VoicesCarry said:

Yeah, but what do the kids know anyway?

I worked with kids for 5 years at a youth shelter, and this was in the mid to late 90's. I'd say over half of them didn't even know who Prince was. Another quarter of them didn't know any of his music and many thought he was from the 60's. Does this mean he's not an icon?

I'm learning that icons are a very subjective thing.

VoicesCarry said:

Scratch that. A punk rock moment came over me.

You're highly balanced, always right and most definitely sane. Friends?

*read*

*eats popcorn*

*read*

*re-read thread subject heading*

*read*

*eats more popcorn*...