Moonbeam said:

An icon Ummmmm, ok. Maybe to a 10-year-old.

As for relevance, when you talk about songwriting quality, you're talking about artistic relevance, which Gwen definitely lacks.

It doesn't say much for Gwen that shit is particularly commercially relevant today. I'm sure they could package dog turds inside jewel cases and it would sell like hot cakes if Fitty was on the cover.

VoicesCarry said:

I think she made the transition a lot more seemlessly/effortlessly than poor 'ole Deb.

I'm gonna end up sounding like a Gwen fan, which I am most definitely not. I've never bought any of her albums, and I don't plan to. I just think she's fun, mildly interesting and has her place. It's trendy to do the whole 80's retro thing right now and I think she's just cashing in. No big ting.

GangstaFam said:

Agreed. Debbie had much more talent, though

VoicesCarry said:

Oh yes. By far.

VoicesCarry said:

Are you crazy? Gwen has been an icon since 1996, and not to 1-year old babies. Your arguments are getting ridiculous!

Moonbeam said:

Who is she an icon to who? And what for?
she never did anything to deserve icon status....
[Edited 5/13/05 16:08pm]

jayaredee said:

Gwen has been an icon for style and kind of embodied the whole mid-90s female angle, along with Alanis.

Mariah never did anything to deserve icon status either, but that doesn't mean she isn't a bona fide icon.

Haven't you guys learned by now that arguing over pop stars is like THE most boring thing ever?

Moonbeam said:

Alanis is an icon? Huh - what? Run that one by me again, I found it too funny.

This reminds me of something Lauren Bacall said at the Venice Film Festival, when someone asked her what it was like working with "legend" Nicole Kidman.

"She's not a legend. She's a beginner."

Same goes for Gwen.

VoicesCarry said:

If you can't concede that Alanis was an icon in the mid-90s, you must not have been paying attention.

Moonbeam said:

Alanis was a flash in the pan for a few months in 1995/1996. That was the only good album she ever made. Who the fuck listens to her now? Some icon!

An icon is someone with longeivity and steady artistic relevance. If Alanis was an icon, so was Vanilla Ice. Hell, MC Hammer had a longer run than she did.
[Edited 5/13/05 16:26pm]

VoicesCarry said:

Flashes in the pain don't sell 15 million records in the US alone for one album.

She lost a lot of her audience with subsequent releases, but Jagged Little Pill is an iconic moment in music history, like it or not. I'm not really a fan of hers at all, but I can recognize the huge impact she had in the mid 90s.

Moonbeam said:

Maybe you don't understand the concept of flash in the pan. A flash in the pan sells tons of records than fades into nothing. Sort of like MC Hammer, who went diamond with Please Hammer Don't Hurt 'Em. So yes, flashes in the pan indeed do sell huge volumes of records, but they do so within a short period, never to be heard from again.

I agree that her album was an iconic moment. But that certainly does not make her an icon.

The reason she lost a lot of her audience so quickly is because it was the album's content and not Alanis that captured the moment so perfectly for some people.
[Edited 5/13/05 16:31pm]

Alanis still gets commercial attention every time she releases an album, unlike those Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer- what a joke!

Alanis' Billboard chart placings:

Jagged Little Pill: 1 (US 16x platinum)
Supposed Former Infatuation Junkie: 1 (US 3x platinum)
Alanis Unplugged: 63 (US gold)
Feast on Scraps: 194
Under Rug Swept: 1 (US platinum)
So-Called Chaos: 5

Not exactly a flash in the pan.

Moonbeam said:

She can't even go gold anymore. She couldn't hold on to her fans. Even Hammer sold more with his second outing than she did with hers. 'Nuff said.
[Edited 5/13/05 16:35pm]

VoicesCarry said:

She had a top 5 album last year. RIAA has been lazy with certifications, so who knows how much it really has sold. You wouldn't find Hammer or Vanilla Ice charting anywhere near the top 5 10 years after they blew up.

Moonbeam said:

That album has not scanned 500,000, I know that much.

Anyhow, this is ridiculous. She had one defining moment and then poof, no more interest in her save for the few of those initial 16 million who became lifelong fans. That don't make her an icon, sorry.

VoicesCarry said:

Triple platinum is a flop then, huh? That's news to me.

She did lose some of her luster with time, but she definitely defined the mid-90s more than any other female artist. The fact that she still gets some attention (albeit not nearly as much) clearly separates her from the true flashes in the pan you mentioned.

Moonbeam said:

WOW, voices, u know ur charts man. Yeah "too legit to quit" (which was his 3rd) I think sold around 4 million? Ha sales, who cares? I guess "thriller" is the best album ever made then. Then that "south pacific" album we all bought.

Moonbeam said:

Maybe, but it also definitely separates her from the icons. And, yes, 3 million shipped was a huge disappointment back in '98. It was considered a flop relative to her previous sales. Maverick had high hopes for that record, and they certainly expected her to hold on to more than 3 million fans. There were articles in Billboard about how much damn money was staked on that record, I remember.

GangstaFam said:

Apparently not.

thesexofit said:

Uh, thesexofit, I don't know what you're babbling about, but she is neither commercially nor artistically relevant in more. Every record she's done has been Jagged Little Pill Pt. 2, 3, 4, 5.....You seem to think I was saying commercial success = artistic relevance. Nope!

Hence she ain't an icon!

Bowie's an icon. Stevie Wonder's an icon. Marvin Gaye's an icon. Diana Ross is an icon. Elton John is an icon. Carole King is an icon. Alanis? Um, no.
[Edited 5/13/05 16:49pm]

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment...

Nirvana only had one blockbuster album. Before that, they were unknowns. After that, they made a really difficult record that shed a lot of their fans. And this was within Kurt Cobain's lifetime. Do you mean to tell me based on those criteria that Nirvana too was a flash in the pan and not legendary icons?

VoicesCarry said:

I never said she was still an icon.

GangstaFam said:

They're legendary icons becuase he died. That alone sent them into the stratosphere. Who knows where they would have ended up otherwise? I can't predict history. See also: Joy Division.

[quote]

VoicesCarry said:

Huh? I never mentioned that whiny cow? Remember "iam a bitch, Iam a lover" song? What crap that was.....(yes it was not alanis singing.....)
[Edited 5/13/05 16:50pm]
[Edited 5/13/05 16:51pm]

Moonbeam said:

You can't be an icon for 15 minutes. That's not what Warhol was talking about.

thesexofit said:[quote]



thesexofit, that was Meredith Brooks, not Alanis.

Interchangeable, though. But Meredith arrived a year too late.

VoicesCarry said:

See also: you're fucking insane.

I know you don't like Nirvana but...

Those 2 bands defined their era, before their lead singers killed themselves. Countless bands followed their lead, while they were still alive.

VoicesCarry said:

She was an icon for a good 3-4 years there in the mid/late 90s. The industry today isn't nearly the same as it was back in the 70s when all of those icons you mentioned were prevalent. Furthermore, artists don't have to necessarily have good music to be icons anymore. This is a topic in itself.

Don't get me wrong- I don't own any of Alanis' albums nor do I plan to in the future. But to deny that she helped to define an era is way off base.