(1985....

1985 - Radio - platinum

1987 - Bigger And Deffer - 2x platinum

1989 - Walking With The Panter - platinum

1990 - Mama Said Knock You Out - 2x platinum

1993 - 14 Shots To the Dome - gold

1995 - Mr Smith - 2x platinum

1996 - All World - platinum

1997 - Phenomenon - platinum

2000 - GOAT - gold

2002 - 10 - gold

2005 - The Definition - gold

....and still going)

Whether you love or hate him, you gotta give him his respect. I mean, I love Pac and I love Biggie, but honestly, who has been here from the 80s hiphop era and is STILL here today going strong, making hits and putting out platinum and golds albums? Name one OTHER rapper who started in 80s and is STILL here doin it big.

And it ain't just his record sells, but he just has the whole package - he's got lyrical skill, he's got looks, charisma, he's a good role model - he's even lightened up the content of his albums for all ages. Their ain't been a parental advisory sticker was on his albums since the GOAT album.

So what if most of his fans are females? When LL first came out with "I Need Love", he was criticized and dissed by alot of hardcore and "gangsta" rappers for being "soft", and not only did LL diss them all back, but he didn't stop doing what music wanted either like Ja Rule did on his "Blood In My Eye" album - Ja could learn from Jason Todd Smith. Hell, even alot of the rapper who dissed him back in the day for making love songs are now giving him props. Cube dissed LL back in the day, but now Westside Connection gave him props on their album. Gotta give it up for L.
[Edited 4/25/05 22:46pm]

I wouldn't go that far.

As long as Rakim draws breath, he is the greatest.

But LL is the prototype for the solo MC. He doesn't get the respect he deserves. He didn't need to pose with a gun or talk about guns to show he was hard. He just came with it. He has since morphed into a pop star, but he was the first solo MC I can remember who moved albums by the millions, and he did it for nearly a decade.

Props are due.

LL is up there, but Paid in Full and Follow the Leader eclipse anything LL has ever done..... and Tupac is not the greatest ever no way he could fuck with Rakim lyrically.

There are so many ways to rank "great" rappers. Best lyricist, Best in Sales.
Now when I rank them I look for a few things. Lyrics, Album consistancy, Most importantly Impact. Impact on hip-hop, artist, style, flow. pop culture, ground breaking moments, impact on mass media in general. Does the individual start a new movement in hip-hop. In other words does this individual force hip-hop artist to follow his lead

LL is the greatest in terms of longevity. He consistantly has one heat rock on every album.

My pound for pound champ of hip-hop is Jay -Z. One day soon I will post why.

Can I be your around the way girl

LL is a definately one of the top 10 rappers. There was recently a thread remembering Krush Groove. Think of the rappers that were in that movie. Who else is still making music. New Edition and Beatsie are really the only ones making new music. LL lyric ability is usually downplayed as well. He can hold his own. He has many different styles. Cannibus still hasn't woke up from the ass kicking LL brought.

With all that said, I was disappointed with The Definition. I was expecting something stronger from him since it was the first cd of the new deal. I will continue to support him in his musical career.

If you are saying that LL is the best rapper because of album sales, then that does him an injustice because that would be Tupac Shakur. LL was great, but he is not the greatest. That would be the God Rakim Allah.

popgodazipa said:

That argument could be made, on the basis of the outlined factors, and I look forward to it.

But Rakim is in the genetic make up of each of the great MC's.

I don't think y'all understand what Im sayin.

The name of the thread is Greatest Rapper Alive. 2pac would definately be the greatest, but he's dead, he aint physically hear anymore, nor is Biggie. 2pac, Biggie, Nas and Jay-Z are amoung the greatest, but LL started before all them, and with Pac & Big gone and Jay-Z "retired", LL is still going.

LL has just it ALL - the hits, longevity, lyrical skill and the fact that he's been in the game since '85 and he stll is here, dropping platinum and albums.

Rakim is the greatest MC alive - rappers and MCs are two different types of people cause anybody can rap - the Ying Yang Twins are rappers, Bone Crusher's a rapper. Of course, LL an MC himself, but not on Rakim's level though.
[Edited 4/22/05 8:52am]

OnionJuice said:

Well, you couldn't DEFINITELY say that Tupac was the greatest rapper, alive or dead, tho he is one of the greatest.



All undisputed facts, tho I think his lyrical skill has waned in the last decade or so.



Assuming the line between MC and Rapper exists, it is a hazy one. Jay-Z could be both. LL could be both. Tupac and B.I.G. could be both. Etc., etc., etc.

If he is then it shows how bad rap is over the years. Not hat he is good but he hasn't had a stellar superior career you know.

saintsation said:

Who Has!!???

Just giv the man his respects.

paisleypark4 said:

I did, don't u see the first sentence. Put the lollipop down and read it again kid.

saintsation said:

All u do is complain, y dont u make your won rap albums and see how far u go in 20 years like him.

namepeace said:

Oh, it does exist. Believe it does. And yeah, its possible to be both.

A rapper seems like the person doesn't have much lyrical skill, but makes the kinda music that the people like and wants the money and fame.

The MC is the person who does actually have the lyrical skillz and/or a message, and does it from the heart.

But when you put the two together, you got Jay-Z's, LL's, Pac's, BIG's, etc.
[Edited 4/22/05 10:52am]

paisleypark4 said:

Complain how dare u and u don't know me. If i make an album will u produce it or will u take forever and a century to do it. itell u what come up with a rap lyric an di come up wit hone and see who sounds better?

I have always been a big LL fan and supporter.

However, after listening to Nas, Street's Disciple album, it's very apparent how far behind LL is.

I'm suprised LL hasn't uped his game up lyrically or took on serious issues through his music. There is nothing truly innovative about his music, he just gets by with a party record, a ballad/radio friendly r&b tune with the sing-along chorus. He may have a street record (which is heightened by having the hottest rappers in the game on it), etc.

Nas album talks about AIDS, crime, drugs, supporting baby mama's, fake rappers, the president, his daughter (in which Nas changes his voice to a Slick Rick style. Although Nas is one of the only political/consious MC's to sell to the masses. (there are countless others but they don't sell)

Anyway, LL is just too predictable (even though he changed his sound a little with the Timberland grooves) as far as topics are concerned. Also, LL doesn't do anything to really make you think...he's just there, although he still makes good records. LL doesn't seem to be relevant anymore...he is at his best when he is in battle mode, see Canibus, Kool Moe Dee...maybe 50 cents needs to go after him, LOL.

OnionJuice said:

Jay Z, Biggie, 2Pac, NWA, Nas, Run DMC, Beastie Boys, are probably the best male rappers that have ever embraced us so far.

I wish I knew more about Rakim and them

OnionJuice said:

Fair points, but I guess I was saying it's hard to distinguish the greats on that basis.

For example, Hammer, 50 Cent, Chingy, Nelly, Lil' Jon, Mase, Fabolous . . . they are rappers.


Rakim, KRS-ONE, Common, Kelvin Mercer and Dave (a/k/a Plugs 1 and 2), Mos, Talib, MF Doom, Ghostface . . . they are MC's.

But are Tupac, B.I.G., LL, Jay-Z, Nas, Snoop, et al. both MC's and rappers? Or are they MC's who have been fortunate to enjoy the success of rappers? Or are they MC's who took on the persona of a rapper to achieve success?

i respect ll. bought his records. attended his concerts (as recently as two years ago). however, my respect for his current skills sort of decreased when the following bars came out of his mouth:

Touch it why don'tcha (ohh) touch it why don'tcha (ohh)
Touch it why don'tcha (ayy) touch it why don'tcha (mmm)
Hey girl.. aw, girl!
Hey girl, I wanna rock your world

when these bars were followed up with the rhyme "paradise is very nice," i officially gave up...

namepeace said:

I would said both, depending on the artist respectively.

For example, Nas particularly seems like an MC who took on the persona of a mainstream rapper to achieve success. If you look at what his singles, he went from Halftime & One Luv, to videoes like "Street Dreams" which was his attempt to appeal to what rap was like at the time (player, baller, "Tony Montanna" image). Even in "If I Ruled The World" video (which was big hit), he was tryna do the Scarface thing. As a matter of fact, when he release his second album, he took on the Nas Escobar persona. Then he did "Hate Me Now" with Puff Daddy, who was big at the time (he even had a bottle of Criss and a fur coat), and "Nastradamus" and "U Owe Me" with Ginuwine, which was very mediocre and beneath him - this was definately the lowest point in his career. The came "Oochie Wally" - oh HELL NO! Say it ain't so, Nas! And I don't even wanna talk about "Firm Biz" (LOL!) And course, he did all of this while tryin to balance them out with street videos like "Nas Is Like".

All I can say is thank God Jay-Z came out and dissed him, cause since then, he's came back to his senses with Stillmatic. And after the whole Summerjam controversy, he even denounced alot of that commercial garbage (which one of the reasons people say Nas contradicts himself cause he was just doin that stuff himself).

Now Nas has hit singles like "I Can", "Made U Look", "One Mic", "Bridging The Gap" with his father and "Just A Moment". I live in Dallas and I can tell you I really don't hear any of those songs on the radio. Anyway, so NOW, he would seem like the MC who's enjoying the success of a mainstream rapper.

Pac would be the MC was fortunate to enjoy the success of rappers cause he came out doing the music that helped him make it big. Like social conscious songs (Trapped, Brenda Got A Baby, Keep Ya Head Up), Dance songs (When My Homies Call, I Get Around), and touching songs (Dear Mama). But once he got on DeathRow, I think thats when he took on the persona of a gangsta/mainstream rapper to fit in with DeathRow and compete with Biggie.

And LL, well he didnt start doing love songs until his second album and since then he kept at it while making hardcore songs. Even though some of his new jack swing songs were corny ass hell especially the one produced by Teddy Riley.

Snoop, I like Snoop, but I don't know what to say about him.

OnionJuice said:

Very good points and very good post!

The Real G.O.A.T






January 28, 1968
Born into this world as William Griffin The Great
Chapter 1, Winedance Long Island
Scientific rhymin' invented a new sound when he met with
Eric Barrier from East Sandhurst
The melody they created was the first
Burst on the scene, 1986 with Clap To This
'87 dropped a classic disc
The facts is the tracklist was like four
The vocals, the beats -- according to Marly Marl
Recorded in my hometown Queensbridge
That's why it's so relative
This biography was unauthorized
I spit it how it was given to author Nas
William changed his name at sixteen to Rakim Allah
'Cause Clarence 13X had New York on lock
Gods on every block, jams in every park
I remember hearin' Curtis Blow saying
"It can't get better than this"
'Til Run DMC blew my brains to bits
From leather coats to shell toes to the stan smiths, to Dapper Dan kicks
First million-dollar deal ever in rap, 18th Letter did that
From 41st & Broadway to Uni to MCA
We followed the leader to Harlem's Apollo Theatre
Supreme rapped and the 50 that don't rap
Forte Green, Queens, Long Island wolfpack
Paid In Full posse, hot they was on
And Ra had his firstborn
With the next line I'ma be easy
His wisdom's name is Fifi
EPMD put a record out, was dope
Tension spread, and I quote "Smack me and I smack you back"
Sounded like the answer to the I Ain't No Joke track
For a second it ain't look good
Little tension buzzin' from Winedance to Brentwood
Misunderstood, all forgot by sixteen when I met Freddy Foxx
Totin' burners, the whole coast's most concern was
How was Rakim's flow, made Christians convert with Islamic ways
Let The Rhythm Hit 'Em was the third LP
A sophisticated mean one, before similar voices were King Son
A few others, but sooner or later, the game was Ra's kingdom
At sixteen, son was watchin' him, mesmorized
Respect, not jockin' him, was so amazin', besides
He came on the stage with lasers in his eyes
Walk with me now

[Nas talking]
"Unauthorized biography of Rakim. Epilogue: Mother was
a jazz singer. Nephew to R & B legend Ruth Brown
Discography: Paid In Full, Follow The Leader, Let
The Rhythm Hit 'Em, Don't Sweat The Technique. That's
the end of the group. Went off to solo. Dropped the
R, then the 18th Letter, and I think, somethin', The
Master. Was signed to Aftermath, scheduled to release
an album Oh My God with Dr. Dre. The album was
dismantled because of creative differences. Thee end
to the new beginning.

The fact that LL has to say it oughta tell you something. Rakim doesn't have to say shit. He walks into the room and most MCs/rappers or whatever you want to call 'em KNOW they're looking at the greatest. I'd rank Nas and the D.O.C., my numbers 2 and 3, above LL. Biggie and Tupac were good and I suspect Biggie would've been a great rapper without the looped beats. Some beats force you to tone down the rap whereas a drum beat alone (with minimal instrumentation) forces you to concentrate on the lyrics because there's no music to hide behind.

Hell, LL ain't even in the same league as these dudes. I'd rank him below Eminem too because Em's a real MC. LL had some great songs but nothing he's ever said really stands out in my mind. Admittedly, I preferred Kool Moe as I was coming up.

I'd rate Cube up near the top as one of the better story rappers along with your boy Slick Rick. I never really cared for Chuck D nor KRS-1 but you have to acknowledge them atleast... and the list goes on.

Oh, and longevity is more a testament to God than man.
[Edited 4/22/05 16:00pm]

Hammer is alive right?


Ll is cool, but it's too soft for me. "fahter" or whatever that was calld was a cool song. "candy" etc..... I loved his early run dmc biting stuff.


He had a beef with hammer. Now he is just beef and hammer is just errrrr hammer!

thesexofit said:

dude, that post is pretty silly...way off the topic but I guess U wanted 2 get your two sense in, LOL.

whodknee said:

Well, I agree with a lot of your post, but for about 7 years LL was, I'll say it, in the top tier of MCs.

Whither Redman in this convo?