the heavens of rock and roll are full of people who died at the height of their careers (Aaliyah, Ritchie Valens, Tupac,Jimi Hendrix, Notorious B.I.G., Left-Eye, Janis Joplin, Buddy Holly)..it seems these people are revered for not living long fulfilling lives whwile putting out a limited output of work(except Tupac, who has more posthumous albums than when he was alive)...then you see somebody like Rick James or Ray Charles, who lived longer, thus making mistakes in their personal lives that somehow diminshed the fact that they were actually very good at what they did. imagine, if RJ had perished right after making Street Songs...he would be an icon, not a cariacature of himself. God forbid if Prince had died right after making Purple Rain, or Stevie died right after making Songs in The Key Of Life..people would look at them so differently than they do now

meltwithu said:

Hell Yes, it's a shame. Jeff Buckley, Bob Marley, John Lennon, Jim Croce, John Denver, Half of Lynyrd Skynyrd, and a billion more.

The artists are revered not so much because they died, but because they died when their music piqued the public's curiosity. Their imagined potential will always be greater than is really possible.

The same holds true for bands who might not have died, but had a short lived career. The Beatles, Blind Faith, Led Zeppelin, Nirvana, the Smashing Pumpkins; these artists were incredibly and insanely popular, but would only be around for a few years. They make a splash, build a fan base, and disappear, leaving people wanting more. Chances are their music would not be as good in the future, thus reducing their legendary status. But, since they never really hit their stride, they're considered inconquerable infallible legends of music.

McCartney would have been praised and applauded more than lennon, if he died in his prime..

Regardless of Lennons fate.. even if the man was here 2day, he's genius would still be recognized.. same goes for mccartney..

Sdldawn said:

Not to diminish Lennon's genius, but Paul McCartney, you gotta admit, has made many mistakes in the last two decades (as any longtime artist makes), and in some sense that diminishes his legend more than Lennon's. But, the Lennon and McCartney aren't overly fair examples to begin with, because their fame and legend was so incredibly profound that they are in a league of their own for this subject.

THINK if Jacko died in 1984? He would be the biggest legand that ever was.....or if he died in the mid 70's people would say he was the purest, best singer ever! A shame in his case how the public forget.....

savoirfaire said:

How did Zeppelin never really "hit their stride"? They were the "Gods of Rock". And with good reason. It's not like they came and went all within two years or something. They had an 11 year run as one of the hardest rocking bands out there. Of course, no one knows what their music would have been like if John Bonham hadn't died in 1980. Music was changing drastically around that point anyway. I don't think Zeppelin would have jumped on the "80s sound" bandwagon, which IMO wouldn't have been as heavy a sound. In fact, Page and Bonham had been talking about their next album being one of their heaviest yet, when John died.

The question of "What if there was still a Led Zeppelin?" is a question that fans of the band are constantly talking about. The thing is, we'll never know. Zeppelin would have gone down as a legendary band even if they hadn't broken up. Eventually their quality of music may have gone downhill, but that happens to every artist at some point. People get older, their musical proficiency wanes, etc. that doesn't mean they couldn't have made an amazing comeback at some point. It just wasn't going to happen without Bonham.

If you listen to their music, it's clear that they were an amazingly talented quartet. I don't think that if an artists work becomes less than stellar at some point, that negates the greatness of what they've done in the past. Look at Stevie Wonder, and Prince for that matter. It's not as if they haven't put out a bad album here and there. They are still legends though, in my eyes. Anyway, the same goes for the The Beatles. I think that if they hadn't broken up, they still could have put out some amazing material.
[Edited 9/9/04 5:50am]

When 2pac died I worked at a record store... Never sold as many cd's as that time... It is really redicilous...
Ofcourse when someone dies he/she gets all the attention, but there are great differences!

I mean John Lennon, Jim Morisson, Jimi Hendrix.Elvis, Freddie Mercury and Kurt Cobain were legends before they died.
2pac and Notorious BIG have become a " legend" because they died. Not because of their genius music or what so ever....
It is a little sad to see them become legendary after they died..... If they were still here they would just be 2pac and biggie (i hate that last one)

I think when true legends like Lennon die, a lot of people who were not interrested before will recognize their genius afterall, and buy their records at that time... that's how the real BIG ones become a true legend.

In case of Lennon, his last work was not that special, but he still would be a legend if he was still alive!

Just like the example of MJ....i think it is true if he died in 1984 he would be a true legend, but he is already, just like Prince or Madonna, and when their time has come, it will only grow!
Let's hope it will last long before that will happen!

No way.

Aaliyah isnt necessarily a legend, and this is coming from a huge Aaliyah fan, but she is the true princess of R&B for todays generation.
Not that damn Ashanti like her crew has proclaimed her to be.
In answer to the thread question, yes because it's tragic that youth dies so young and at their prime of life.

savoirfaire said:

What he said. I think Jimi would be a legend regardless, because he changed rock and roll forever (IMHO). I think the only person in the modern era comparable is Cobain because he revitalized a genre (and spawned untold numbers of corporate rock wannabes in the process).

On the other hand, artists who do stick around long enough are revered for sticking around long enough. Like a nice tie in the back of your closet, we tend to "rediscover" and showcase veteran (read:older) artists whose notoriety has receded, like, for example, Bonnie Raitt, Santana, and now Prince.

For sure. Why? Because their death usually precedes their played-out/corny/creatively-uninspired later years.

CherrieMoonKisses said:

one word: Selena
[Edited 9/9/04 18:35pm]

minneapolisgenius said:

That part I bolded is what I was trying to put out, I just didn't do a good job of it. See, what I was saying is Zeppelin was an amazingly successful, legendary group, and for good reason. I just feel that, if Bonham hadn't died, if Zeppelin continued on for another 20 years, their legendary status would probably be diminished. It's when a group splits up before most people are done listening to them that they become legends. I'm not diminishing Zeppelin's abilities, or their success. I'm just saying they are greater legends because they existed for a period of time, and left before people lost interest, and before their music had a chance to be compromised.

Some of the artists that died young like Jimi Hendrix deserve "legend" status.

On the other hand, artists like Tupac or Notorious B.I.G., who did absolutely nothing for improving hip hop and were actually two contributors for bringing it down, are not worthy of this status. I did not like them when they were living so I'm sorry but death does not change my opinion of them. I think Jam Master Jay deserves respect though, He was around in the early days when the music was good and was one of the pioneers.

As for those that continue living after their career fizzles, it's a shame that they didn't get the respect they deserved while they are living so they could enjoy it. I have never been a Ray Charles fan but I certainly respect him as an artist and think he deserved much praise while he was living. And as for Rick James, I had nothing but love, respect, and praise for him while he was living and it continues for him now that he is gone.

savoirfaire said:

Oh ok. Yeah, we'll always be left wondering what could have been.

vainandy said:[quote]Some of the artists that died young like Jimi Hendrix deserve "legend" status.

On the other hand, artists like Tupac or Notorious B.I.G., who did absolutely nothing for improving hip hop and were actually two contributors for bringing it down, are not worthy of this status. I did not like them when they were living so I'm sorry but death does not change my opinion of them. I think Jam Master Jay deserves respect though, He was around in the early days when the music was good and was one of the pioneers.


huh???....you praise the DJ JMJ but not two of the most lyrically powerful MC's ever in Tupac and Biggie? I think your disdain for hip-hop after 1990 is clouding your judgement. Run DMC put out some of the crappiest shit after their hey-dey had passed. Tupac's legacy is still being felt damn near ten years after he was murdered, as his posthumous projects still sell into the millions. Thugz Mansion (especially the acoustic version w/Nas ) is as powerful as hip hop gets. He was definitely not the best of role models out there, but to say he helped bring down hip-hop is just flat out wrong. He helped redefine it.

[/quote]

I agree that Run DMC's music in the 1990s was a bunch of bullshit. But at least they had some good music to begin with in the 1980s. Who knows, maybe they tried to adapt to the tired shit of the 1990s. Nevertheless, Tupac's shit was dead from day one. He came along at a time when music in general was dead, a time when standards were lowered as to what a true artist really is. As far as him selling millions after his death, the people that are buying it are the same people that were buying his shit when he was living. He died while he was still popular, of course his shit is going to sell after he is dead.
[Edited 9/10/04 22:14pm]
[Edited 9/10/04 22:46pm]

vainandy said:

I agree that Run DMC's music in the 1990s was a bunch of bullshit. But at least they had some good music to begin with in the 1980s. Who knows, maybe they tried to adapt to the tired shit of the 1990s. Nevertheless, Tupac's shit was dead from day one. He came along at a time when music in general was dead, a time when standards were lowered as to what a true artist really is. As far as him selling millions after his death, the people that are buying it are the same people that were buying his shit when he was living. He died while he was still popular, of course his shit is going to sell after he is dead.
[Edited 9/10/04 22:14pm]
[Edited 9/10/04 22:46pm]
[/quote]

Sorry for being so harsh in my post. You see I edited it twice before I left it alone and it still sounds harsh. I think the whole thug image has ruined popular music since the 1990s and Tupac was a large contributer to that image.

I do think that standards were lowered in the 1990s as to what a real artist is. People are praising artists that cannot play one musical note. The whole song structure is built around a sample that was never theirs to begin with. There are no new melodies or grooves being made. Nothing new and original is coming from the music except the words and they are not even being sung, they are being spoken. And they are being spoken to music at a slow enough tempo that makes it easy for the rapper to get the words out. It also makes it very boring for the listener.

I think if Tupac had lived many years after his popularity fizzled and died later, he would never be considered the musical "genius" that people are calling him.

I think if the world ever gets out of this musical rut we are in, we are all going to look back at the 1990s and say "How the HELL could people have enjoyed that".
[Edited 9/11/04 8:21am]

Lady Day wasn't considered to be the most important lady in jazz untill she died at the age of 44 in 1959 and all of a sudden ALL her music got reissued to this very day. Hell, she wasn't well recieved outside NYC either. If Billie lived like Ella or Sarah, you bet that she wouldn't recieve the same importance & intrest when she was dead.

What angers me is, folks like Phyllis Hyman & Donny Hathaway didn't recieve any amount of respect when they're already dead,,,let alone when they were alive.

Tessa said:

Is that supposed to be a good one word or a bad one word?

Anyways, I think it's that if they die before their prime, it's always a question of what would've been, what would've happened. And, often times, these people who acheive legend status were already pretty big while they were living. The people Harlepolis metioned weren't as big when they were alive as say, Hendrix or Cobain.


It also depends on how they died. Take Selena, vertually unkown to the English speaking public, but because she's killed by her best friend/fan club manager at age 23 she's suddenly a big story.


If they're already pretty well known and adored, them dying will simply expedite their fame. Usually, they were pretty damn good, and since they died tragically at a young age they're seen as some sort of matyr and are instantly made the "king" or "Queen" of whatever their genre was.


But, if they die at an age where they've pretty much done all the greateness they're gonna do (like Rick James and Ray Charles) it's not that big of a deal.
[Edited 9/11/04 21:49pm]

of course they do. i mean it adds a certain myth spooky type shit around em u kno? 2pac..hendrix...kurt cobain...biggie..aaliyah..all died young..and are gonna be forever remembered because of it..

of course they do. i mean it adds a certain myth spooky type shit around em u kno? 2pac..hendrix...kurt cobain...biggie..aaliyah..all died young..and are gonna be forever remembered because of it..

Tupac's legacy is still being felt damn near ten years after he was murdered, as his posthumous projects still sell into the millions. Thugz Mansion (especially the acoustic version w/Nas ) is as powerful as hip hop gets. He was definitely not the best of role models out there, but to say he helped bring down hip-hop is just flat out wrong. He helped redefine it.

yes!!


thats true but pac never clamied to be a musical type artist u kno? pac was a poet..that was his thing..listen to stuff like thugs mansion thats str8 up poetry! its uplifting u kno? listen to stuff like brenda's got a baby...man he's makin a song for the strugglers out there..i'd rather listen to pac talk about real shit over sampled beats than listen to some of these folks out now talk about bullshit over sampled beats.
[Edited 9/11/04 22:51pm]

To that question i just have one answer.

What good is all that immortalized fame if you're not around to enjoy any of it ?