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Printablebloodybadbrain said: Harlepolis said: Soul is not a genre nor a label, people play with this term so damn loosely that they're 4getting what does it really stand for. Like 4 example, his solo in "When My Guitar Weeps" or whateva the title is. Thats soul right there. Billie Holiday & Joni Mitchell are down-right soulful IMHO so is Jimi and so is Chaka Khan who's considered many things like Funk vocalist or disco star lol but the whole damn thing oriented? They're soul singers(despite their genres or labels). Not to get carried away here but "soul" doesn't have to do with church or the damn holy ghost, if it striked you right in the chest,,,thats soul. If not 4 the rest then at least 4 me. Thats how I see it! i think youre getting these two things (soulful as in the intangible feeling and soul as in the genre) confused. Not at all, I firmly mean what I said 
the fact you said soul has nothing to do with the church makes me think you need to perhaps read up a little more on what soul, the musical form, is. to put in short, anyone can sound soulful from joni to aretha to prince to billie, but that doesnt mean they make soul, the music.
[This message was edited Sun Jun 13 11:20:42 2004 by bloodybadbrain] Thats gospel music and yes its soulful but ain't no such thing called "soul music" becoz you simply can't apply it on limited group of people. There's gospel, there's bluse, there's jazz & there's RnB but there's no such genre called soul music. Record labels & critics came up with it when Ray & Aretha came out but what about Bessie Smith who came out way b4 them? See what I mean? Hope this makes sense. | |
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Harlepolis said:[quote] bloodybadbrain said: Not at all, I firmly mean what I said
the fact you said soul has nothing to do with the church makes me think you need to perhaps read up a little more on what soul, the musical form, is. to put in short, anyone can sound soulful from joni to aretha to prince to billie, but that doesnt mean they make soul, the music.
[This message was edited Sun Jun 13 11:20:42 2004 by bloodybadbrain] Thats gospel music and yes its soulful but ain't no such thing called "soul music" becoz you simply can't apply it on limited group of people. There's gospel, there's bluse, there's jazz & there's RnB but there's no such genre called soul music. Record labels & critics came up with it when Ray & Aretha came out but what about Bessie Smith who came out way b4 them? See what I mean? Hope this makes sense. afraid it makes no sense at all. bessie smith didnt sing soul music. she sung blues and jazz. you make me LOL, trying to revise a whole world of music. just accept it! soul music is soul music. it doesnt mean prince doesnt have soul, but that he simply doesnt make soul music. nothing wrong with that. if you wanna call it an outgrowth or evolution rhythm and blues, thats fine, i suppose, but how you would tell someone like curtis mayfield that they didnt make soul music is beyond me. soul is its own thing. why anyone would try to claim it doesnt exist is just baffling. again, please read up on what makes soul music. gospel and soul are not the same thing, even though they are deeply intertwined. | |
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nice. thanks. The Org is the short yellow bus of the Prince Internet fan community. | |
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bloodybadbrain said: Harlepolis said: Thats gospel music and yes its soulful but ain't no such thing called "soul music" becoz you simply can't apply it on limited group of people. There's gospel, there's bluse, there's jazz & there's RnB but there's no such genre called soul music. Record labels & critics came up with it when Ray & Aretha came out but what about Bessie Smith who came out way b4 them? See what I mean? Hope this makes sense. afraid it makes no sense at all. bessie smith didnt sing soul music. she sung blues and jazz. you make me LOL, trying to revise a whole world of music. just accept it! soul music is soul music. it doesnt mean prince doesnt have soul, but that he simply doesnt make soul music. nothing wrong with that. if you wanna call it an outgrowth or evolution rhythm and blues, thats fine, i suppose, but how you would tell someone like curtis mayfield that they didnt make soul music is beyond me. soul is its own thing. why anyone would try to claim it doesnt exist is just baffling. again, please read up on what makes soul music. gospel and soul are not the same thing, even though they are deeply intertwined. Me revising a whole world of music? Why? Cuz I'm not with you on the same boat? No honey, I only got my interpretation of what "soul music" is, thats all. Aretha & Ray are as bluse/gospel oriented as Bessie Smith was,,,same ol' same. The word "soul music" only surfaced in the 60's but the "music" in itself was around WAAAAY b4 that term was even floating around inside everybody's heads. But then again lol since I seem confused to you, I'd like to know how do you define "soul music" and who're the people under that label genre? Just wondering. | |
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bananacologne said: STOP!  | |
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Harlepolis said: bloodybadbrain said: afraid it makes no sense at all. bessie smith didnt sing soul music. she sung blues and jazz. you make me LOL, trying to revise a whole world of music. just accept it! soul music is soul music. it doesnt mean prince doesnt have soul, but that he simply doesnt make soul music. nothing wrong with that. if you wanna call it an outgrowth or evolution rhythm and blues, thats fine, i suppose, but how you would tell someone like curtis mayfield that they didnt make soul music is beyond me. soul is its own thing. why anyone would try to claim it doesnt exist is just baffling. again, please read up on what makes soul music. gospel and soul are not the same thing, even though they are deeply intertwined. Me revising a whole world of music? Why? Cuz I'm not with you on the same boat? No honey, I only got my interpretation of what "soul music" is, thats all. Aretha & Ray are as bluse/gospel oriented as Bessie Smith was,,,same ol' same. The word "soul music" only surfaced in the 60's but the "music" in itself was around WAAAAY b4 that term was even floating around inside everybody's heads. But then again lol since I seem confused to you, I'd like to know how do you define "soul music" and who're the people under that label genre? Just wondering. you seem to think all these singers all sung the blues. like i said, there can be overlap and they might have sung some bluesy songs but youre effectively denying that the music underwent any sort of change or worse than that, trying to say that a song like curtis mayfield's move on up is a blues song and that its all just the same thing which is quite limiting. why do you think the main audience for soul didnt want to hear or see old blues artists anymore? because it wasnt the same thing. to be honest, at this stage, i really dont care what *your* interpretation of soul is, as not only does it go against common sense/decades of tradition attested to not just by critics and record labels but artists too, im beginning to find it borderline offensive and ignorant. if you cant tell the difference between a song like killing floor by howlin wolf and a song like lets stay together by al green, i dont know what to say. again, SOULFUL and SOUL are not the same thing. you are completley confusing the two. karen carpenter was a soulful singer, but in no way at all, did she sing soul music. she could not have made it as a soul singer either. there are certain characteristics inherent to both soul singing and soul songs that the carpenters did not have. for example, see the difference between the carpenters versionof weve only just begun and curtis mayfields. here's some soul artists for you: the impressions donny hathaway al green ann peebles the four tops eddie floyd carla thomas otis redding solomon burke james carr harold melvin bobby womack the spinners etc etc [This message was edited Sun Jun 13 12:33:34 2004 by bloodybadbrain] | |
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bloodybadbrain said:[quote] Harlepolis said: Me revising a whole world of music? Why? Cuz I'm not with you on the same boat? No honey, I only got my interpretation of what "soul music" is, thats all. Aretha & Ray are as bluse/gospel oriented as Bessie Smith was,,,same ol' same. The word "soul music" only surfaced in the 60's but the "music" in itself was around WAAAAY b4 that term was even floating around inside everybody's heads. But then again lol since I seem confused to you, I'd like to know how do you define "soul music" and who're the people under that label genre? Just wondering. you seem to think all these singers all sung the blues. like i said, there can be overlap, youre effectively denying that the music underwent any sort of change or worse than that, trying to say that a song like curtis mayfield's move on up is a blues song and that its all just the same thing which is quite limiting.
Like I said, there's RnB, Jazz, Gospel & Bluse. Pick one of these. to be honest, at this stage, i really dont care what *your* interpretation of soul is, as not only does it go against common sense/decades of tradition attested to not just by critics and record labels but artists too, im beginning to find it borderline offensive and ignorant. if you cant tell the difference between a song like killing floor by howlin wolf and a song like lets stay together by al green, i dont know what to say.
Ooh weeh Why would you find it borderline offensive & ignorant? Chillax bo-bo, this is nothing but a healthy conversation, ain't no reason for you to get a high blood pressure over this.
Once again, you're talking about a waaaaay different matter and I'm the same. Critics & record labels got no room in our conversation(least not in mine cuz I don't pay no mind to them). again, SOULFUL and SOUL are not the same thing. you are completley confusing the two. karen carpenter was a soulful singer, but in no way at all, did she sing soul music. she could not have made it as a soul singer either. there are certain characteristics inherent to both soul singing and soul songs that the carpenters did not have. for example, see the difference between the carpenters versionof weve only just begun and curtis mayfields.
I see yo point but you still didn't tell me how you define "soul music" 
here's some soul artists for you:
the impressions donny hathaway al green ann peebles the four tops eddie floyd carla thomas otis redding solomon burke james carr harold melvin bobby womack the spinners 2 letters 4 ya mind,,,,,R & B whom are gospel-oriented. I got another simple ?uestion, how do you label Ray Charles? | |
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[quote] Harlepolis said: bloodybadbrain said: I see yo point but you still didn't tell me how you define "soul music"
see below. here's some soul artists for you:
the impressions donny hathaway al green ann peebles the four tops eddie floyd carla thomas otis redding solomon burke james carr harold melvin bobby womack the spinners 2 letters 4 ya mind,,,,,R & B whom are gospel-oriented. what you just typed is basically the difference between R&B and soul. gospel oriented R&B IS essentially what soul is - that combination birthed a whole new movement and strain of R&B. its rooted in R&B yes but it most certainly is different. not sure why thats so hard for you to swallow. I got another simple ?uestion, how do you label Ray Charles? ray was R&B-rooted but he also played country, jazz, and hes generally considered as the inventor of what is soul, i.e - a fusion of "the sensual and secular preoccupations of the blues and the galvanic fervour of gospel", which "created a sublime blasphemy which was at once the initiation of one of the past century's most vital music forms, and a potent metaphor for the Civil Rights struggle: that spiritual passion can righteously be applied to secular ends." listen to R&B from the 40s/50s then listen to soul from the 60s/70s and tell me you cant tell the difference. if you cant, than its your loss. | |
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bloodybadbrain said: what you just typed is basically the difference between R&B and soul. gospel oriented R&B IS essentially what soul is - that combination birthed a whole new movement and strain of R&B. its rooted in R&B yes but it most certainly is different. not sure why thats so hard for you to swallow. I got another simple ?uestion, how do you label Ray Charles? ray was R&B-rooted but he also played country, jazz, and hes generally considered as the inventor of what is soul, i.e - a fusion of "the sensual and secular preoccupations of the blues and the galvanic fervour of gospel", which "created a sublime blasphemy which was at once the initiation of one of the past century's most vital music forms, and a potent metaphor for the Civil Rights struggle: that spiritual passion can righteously be applied to secular ends." listen to R&B from the 40s/50s then listen to soul from the 60s/70s and tell me you cant tell the difference. if you cant, than its your loss. LOL Of courrse there's a difference and a huge one 4 that matter, everything evolve and develop. Thats not the point. My point is "SOUL" been around pre-60's/mid-50's, its not YOU or the rest of the listeners who made up this term up, RECORD COMPANYS are the ones who made it up in order to sell and all of a sudden we got a new music emerging in the 50's/60's called SOUL MUSIC which is bullshit, thats whole damn point of this labeling game. Exactly like the word "Jazz", Duke Ellington said ain't no such thing and resented the word which is another subject but "jazz" was around way b4 when everybody thought that Louis Armstrong & Duke Ellington were the reason 4 its birth. It wasn't called jazz, jazz was a word made-up by the white man and like how you & millions of others falled 4 the "soul music" term, everybody else falled 4 the term "jazz". Same goes with soul music. [This message was edited Sun Jun 13 13:11:54 2004 by Harlepolis] | |
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Harlepolis said: bloodybadbrain said: ray was R&B-rooted but he also played country, jazz, and hes generally considered as the inventor of what is soul, i.e - a fusion of "the sensual and secular preoccupations of the blues and the galvanic fervour of gospel", which "created a sublime blasphemy which was at once the initiation of one of the past century's most vital music forms, and a potent metaphor for the Civil Rights struggle: that spiritual passion can righteously be applied to secular ends." listen to R&B from the 40s/50s then listen to soul from the 60s/70s and tell me you cant tell the difference. if you cant, than its your loss. LOL Of courrse there's a difference and a huge one 4 that matter, everything evolve and develop. Thats not the point. My point is "SOUL" been around pre-60's/mid-50's, its not YOU or the rest of the listeners who made up this term up, RECORD COMPANYS are the ones who made it up in order to sell, thats whole damn point of this labeling game. Exactly like the word "Jazz", Duke Ellington said ain't no such thing and resented the word which is another subject but "jazz" was around way b4 when everybody thought that Louis Armstrong & Duke Ellington were the reason 4 its birth. Same goes with soul music. HUH? who cares if it had been around. things change, music being of of them. the point is that what was called R&B in the 40s/50s was not the same as what soul music was in the 60s/70s. hell, soul wasnt even the same in the 70s as it was in the 60s. this is zike saying 50s rock was the same as 70s rock - theyre a lot different in endless ways. it got a new name at the time - e.g - hard ROCK rather than rock n roll - because it WAS different. lots of people who like say, led zeppelin, dont like 50s rock. why? cos it went through so many changes taht it sounded very very different. jazz came from blues. but it became something very differnet to the blues, hence the new name. youre just going on a never ending anti-labelling crusade which can only get you nowhere. genres are just useful for identification. they dont have to be limits. if i use your logic, before soul was called soul, it was R&B, but before R&B was r&B, it was blues, before blues was called blues, it was called, i dont know, field songs. so okay, since field songs were before everyrhing, before record companyies could call it anything, lets just call it all field songs. because, after all, field songs are just the same as muddy waters early recordings, and those are just like big joe turner, and joe is of course, JUST like al green, right?!?! whatever.....! the fact is i just wrote above that R&B+gospel=soul, i.e. something different to 'R&B'. if that doesnt tell you how the two genres differ, than psssssht. who cares when it came about, or the year, the hour, the second or if it was about before it was labelled. of course it was about before, you cant label something that doesnt exist. [This message was edited Sun Jun 13 13:19:45 2004 by bloodybadbrain] | |
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bloodybadbrain said: Harlepolis said: LOL Of courrse there's a difference and a huge one 4 that matter, everything evolve and develop. Thats not the point. My point is "SOUL" been around pre-60's/mid-50's, its not YOU or the rest of the listeners who made up this term up, RECORD COMPANYS are the ones who made it up in order to sell, thats whole damn point of this labeling game. Exactly like the word "Jazz", Duke Ellington said ain't no such thing and resented the word which is another subject but "jazz" was around way b4 when everybody thought that Louis Armstrong & Duke Ellington were the reason 4 its birth. Same goes with soul music. HUH? who cares if it had been around. things change, music being of of them. the point is that what was called R&B in the 40s/50s was not the same as what soul music was in the 60s/70s. hell, soul wasnt even the same in the 70s as it was in the 60s. this is zike saying 50s rock was the same as 70s rock - theyre a lot different in endless ways. it got a new name at the time - e.g - hard ROCK rather than rock n roll - because it WAS different. lots of people who like say, led zeppelin, dont like 50s rock. why? cos it went through so many changes taht it sounded very very different. jazz came from blues. but it became something very differnet to the blues, hence the new name. youre just going on a never ending anti-labelling crusade which can only get you nowhere. genres are just useful for identification. they dont have to be limits. if i use your logic, before soul was called soul, it was R&B, but before R&B was r&B, it was blues, before blues was called blues, it was called, i dont know, field songs. so okay, since field songs were before everyrhing, before record companyies could call it anything, lets just call it all field songs. because, after all, field songs are just the same as muddy waters early recordings, and those are just like big joe turner, and joe is of course, JUST like al green, right?!?! whatever.....! [This message was edited Sun Jun 13 13:14:32 2004 by bloodybadbrain] Oh snap lol and you're the one calling me confused?
Ok, since labeling is useful 4 indentification. I got a last ?uestion(or ?uestions) 2 ask, do you agree with the term "Neo-Soul"? If so how do you define it, if NOT then why? | |
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as i just edited:
"the fact is i just wrote above that R&B+gospel=soul, i.e. something different to 'R&B'. if that doesnt tell you how the two genres differ, than psssssht. who cares when it came about, or the year, the hour, the second or if it was about before it was labelled. of course it was about before, you cant label something that doesnt exist." im tired of answering your queries. theres not much more i can add to this paragraph. if you still dont get it after this, then i throw my hands up. i strongly suggest you listen to some real soul from the 60s and some real r&B from the 50s. because bessie smith did not make either. [This message was edited Sun Jun 13 13:22:33 2004 by bloodybadbrain] | |
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You got too many words & terms but all of them came from the SAME damn spot or place. Thats why I don't bother with labeling like you SERIOUSLY do and you're tired becoz you're good with words so much that you 4get WHAT is our conversation about lol!
But its cool, we agree 2 disagree right? [This message was edited Sun Jun 13 13:26:37 2004 by Harlepolis] | |
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the convo was about whether prince played soul music or not. i say, on the whole, no he doesnt!
okay, nothing more to say on this, end of topic! bye bye! | |
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A huge thanx to Bananacologne for making this article available! | |
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