Here are the Nielsen Soundscan charts for Canada. Chart Date May 27 2004.

Top 100 Albums - #32 (LW - #26, Peak #11, WO - 5)
R&B Albums - #8 (LW - #7, Peak #3, WO - 5)

BY CITY:

Calgary - Off Charts (Peak #14)
Charlottetown - Off Charts (Peak #12)
Edmonton - Did Not Chart
Halifax - #15 (LW #19, Peak #15)
Montreal - Off Charts (Peak #10)
Ottawa - Off Charts (Peak #11)
Quebec City - Did Not Chart
Regina - Off Charts (Peak #11)
St. John's - Did Not Chart
Toronto - #10 (LW #9, Peak #3)
Winnipeg - Off Charts (Peak #15)
Vancouver - #19 (LW #13, Peak #2)

I've never paid attention 2 Canada's charts but hey they might not be in2 P bcuz of his lack of touring Canada back in the day.

ELBOOGY said:

Shut up!! It's got nothing to do with that... people just ain't feeling Prince and what many percecive a gay image...

That's what it's really about... people don't buy his records because he looks gay.

jayARDAHB said:

Where is Canada? Isn't that the little country that Tonya Harding is from?

WHO THE HELL CARES ABOUT CANADA?!?! ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS HOCKEY, AND THAT RIGHT THERE SAYS ENOUGH!! LOL

ITS SO COLD UP THERE , THEIR BRAINS HAVE FROZEN , SO THEY DONT KNOW GOOD MUSIC FROM THEIR ASS!!!

jayARDAHB said:

I'll second that, I think it is this "gay" image every teen has over prince, I normally get at school "Prince is gay" or "He is a fag" I was also told a rumour which I laughed at which was "Prince is gay he took out one of his ribs to suck on his dick". Of Course all us orgers know that prince is a real eccentric even up until this day, teens think "whatever isn't normal is gay" and that's just plain wrong. As for the racist slur that's going on between america and canada, I'll just stay out.

pluvv2002 said:

p.s.

As for the racist slur that's going on between america and canada, I'll just stay out


I hate to sound like a smarty-pants, but Canadians do not qualify as a race. The proper term would be xenophobe.

Anyway, there's really nothing wrong with knocking Canadians - I'm from Canada and most of the time I don't think that highly of this country, but that's a topic for another board, I suppose...

pluvv2002 said:

Yes, we all live in igloos and live to chase a rubber puck... MORON! Don't generalize a whole nation. I'm canadian, I don't like hockey and I know how to qualify good music from bad – and Prince, who most of us on the org have great respect and admiration for seems to appreciate this country very much, enough to want to make it his home.

RIGHT ON VOOG!

Yes,,most people that think THAT way are Morons & just plain ignorant~~

I would never want to live in the states,,Its filthy,,& you have to PAY for medical~

jayARDAHB said:[quote]

ELBOOGY said:

Shut up!! It's got nothing to do with that... people just ain't feeling Prince and what many percecive a gay image...

That's what it's really about... people don't buy his records because he looks gay.[/quote

oh yeah....im sure thats it

jayARDAHB said:

If that's the case then screw u and Canada!

Yes Canada is such a bore!!

Free healthcare for everyone
Top 5 amongst all developed countries in public education (US was in BOTTOM 5)
No violent crime to speak of
No ghettos
Tuition is a fraction of what it is in the US
Very little racism despite as much if not more ethnicity than the US
People don't hate their guts around the world


BTW Tonya Harding was American

Oh and I live in the US.

Prince Is Different!,,he wears lace & high heels,,people just ASSUME he is gay..they dont know any better~

But at least we know,,,he is the Man~~ I think he is JUST AS popular in canada,,Ive seen him 3 times here~~

Im NOT bashing the states,,,really,,I would love nothing more than to TRAVEL all over this country!...(yeah, when i win the lotto)

Im just saying I have had BAD experiences while visiting outside of canada..when I was in Buffalo,,,there was a shooting outside the club we were at..& the streets were..hmm,,,well,,,it looked like there was a garbage strike~~

Cape Cod was AMAZING! what a beautiful place..I could go on,,but i wont bore you..

All things considered,,,,, I prefer to live in Canada.

2funkE said:

I can't argue with that!

Pal - your Brain is beyond frozen, it's fried! Ignorance is bliss - I suppose...

ELBOOGY said:

I live in Canada, and I'll happily argue with almost all of it. I'd just as soon not get into an argument, but I cannot let comments like this go by without sticking my nose into it.

Free healthcare - It's only free if you don't count the nearly 50% of income that is taken from Canadians by cumulative taxation by the different levels of government. Let's put that aside for a moment, and consider quality and timeliness. The average wait for an MRI scan in my province is 25 weeks. In the US access to the procedure is for all intents and purposes instantaneous. This is an example of the inefficiencies that exist in all aspects of the Canadian healthcare system. Another example - a woman with a failing liver could not be given a donor organ last year, even though a perfect match was available because a bed could not be cleared for her at the only hospital in British Columbia capable of performing the procedure. In every area of the country, equipment is badly outdated and doctors of every specialty are in short supply.

A more personal example - my mother is blind in one eye, and her vision is failing in the other, yet she has an anticipated wait of 32 weeks until she can be admitted for cataract surgery.

Why do these inefficiencies exist, even though Canada spends more than any other industrialized nation with a comparable single-payer system? Because of the complete absence of any form of market discipline. Even in Sweden, the most socialist of the industrialized nations, supply of healthcare is provided by the private sector because they've recognized this increases efficiency, but in Canada we have our ideological blinders on, and we consistently suffer for this.

No violent crime, no ghettos:

I don't know where you live, but in my part of Canada, I can get in a car, travel twenty minutes out of my city and find myself in the middle of a reservation that has living conditions straight out of the third world. Houses do not have plumbing or running water - my brother-in-law, an RCMP officer, used to live next door to a family of 11 (!) who lived in a one room house about the size of a two car garage. In the morning, everyone would "go to the bathroom" in the family bucket, and then the father would dump it out on the front lawn. Similar conditions exist throughout the country.

But I don't even have to go that far - all I have to do is take a short ride to the north end of my city, where no sane person would ever walk by himself any time of the day. Equivalent situations exist in every major Cdn city. Vancouver in particular has developed an incredibly serious and bloody gang problem in the past decade and a half.

Tuition is a fraction of what it is in the US

If you compare the average Canadian university to an Ivy league school, then yes, this is true. But if you compare it to a State College (which is a more accurate comparison given the quality of most Canadian universities), then this is not the case. Tuitions often comparable - more expensive in the States certainly , but the difference is often negligible, and the quality and (definitely) the scope of the schools in the US on average are superior.

Very little racism despite as much if not more ethnicity than the US

Well, this is a pretty subjective thing to argue, but I'm sure the average aboriginal person would deeply take issue with this.

[

flipwilson said:

Looks like i'm going 2 have 2 research and educate myself on Canada. Thanx 4 your input and not flaming me!

pluvv2002 said:

HOW DARE YOU!!!

ELBOOGY said:

Looks like i'm going 2 have 2 research and educate myself on Canada. Thanx 4 your input and not flaming me![/quote]

No worries - I was worried that it might seem like I was trying to start a battle. I can get a little obsessive about things like this...

flipwilson said:[quote]

ELBOOGY said:

WEll, you also have to consider that over 44 million Americans have no Medicare and about 50% have had problems with their HMO. AND you must consider that Americans need nurses in the States from here--why??? Also consider that the average American payment for Medicare annually is 10 000 dollars!!



If you were to take it as a percentage violent crimes, gun deaths, and rapes are lower in Canada--although for rapes I believe we're number two. Also, have you ever been to a convenience store in the States in a place like Detroit, I've been to Toronto several times and you can't compare them. Canada I believe as a percentage has more stabbings though.



This is subjective. I will disagree with this statement due to current experience. Many schools in the States including non-Ivy Leagues are extremely expensive. I have friends that are going to universities in Kentucky on sports and academic scholarships and they still pay 10s of thousands of dollars a year. Another note: the academic requirements in the States are lower than in Canada for state colleges. My friend would've never gotten a scholarship to Queens, Guelph, U of T St. George, but she did at Wayne State and the University of Kentucky. I also take offence to the statement that American schools (including Ivy Leagues) tend to be academically superior to Canadian universities--there are quality gaps within provinces and between universities. I recently did a second year organic chem test from Yale and it was everything we covered in first year. Recent studies have shown that marks at many Ivy Leagues in the States tend to be inflated as well--exclusivity and a high price tag do not necessarily a quality education make. Talking to friends in the States who do my same program have fewer credit hours than I do try 14 compared to 25. Also many of my profs have gone from Canadian to American universities (including Ivy Leagues like Harvard and Princeton) and vice versa and they said that there was really no difference in upper years and was just like going from one university to another.



That is subjective, but I think that the situation with African Americans in the States is unique.

And finally about taxation, lower income Canadians pay less in takes than fellow low income Americans, for middle class Americans pay slightly less, the only large gap is between the wealthy. In places like Scandinavia they pay even higher taxes than we do, third world countries have LOW taxes.
[This message was edited Mon May 31 16:15:20 2004 by squirrelscientist]

]WEll, you also have to consider that over 44 million Americans have no Medicare and about 50% have had problems with their HMO.[/b]

And you have to consider that the majority of uninsured Americans are uninsured by choice. Most simply opt not to be insured because they are young, healthy and take the gamble that they will not get sick. That may be foolhardy, but it is their choice. Those who are uninsured due to economic hardship are generally covered under medicaid.


AND you must consider that Americans need nurses in the States from here--why???

Because there is a demand for nurses. That is a symptom of economic health. I don't really understand the point of your question. Many professionals of all types have left Canada because of better pay and opportunity. I'll throw in a personal example again - one of my closest friends, an architect, is currently weighing job offers from San Francisco, Chicago and New York - the lowest offer is 35% greater than what he is currently earning, without adjusting for the exchange rate. I know more than a few people who have been lured south.

And you must consider that thousands of nurses have left Canada!!! WHY??? Because of superior pay and better working conditions. They receive generous signing bonuses and benefits, and have flexibility in hours that are simply inaccessible to Canadian nurses. Consider what circumstances must force a person to completely uproot their life and move to a different country! I know more than a few nurses who are demoralized because they work in a system that is spiralling out of control.


Also consider that the average American payment for Medicare annually is 10 000 dollars!!

There is a great deal of variation among health plans that Americans can choose from - and that is the important point - they are free to choose, and this allows for a system that is responsive to their needs, rather than a system where resources are allocated by bureaucratic fiat. Therefore, Americans receive prompt treatment rather than linger on a waiting list for hip replacements or chemotherapy.


If you were to take it as a percentage violent crimes, gun deaths, and rapes are lower in Canada--although for rapes I believe we're number two. Also, have you ever been to a convenience store in the States in a place like Detroit, I've been to Toronto several times and you can't compare them. Canada I believe as a percentage has more stabbings though.

This is true - for the most part, violent crime is lower in Canada, though Canada's rate has remained static or risen in the past decade while America's rates have dropped quite dramatically across the board. Property crime (burglary, auto theft) is higher in Canada. You mentioned Detroit, someone else mentioned Buffalo - well, those cities are home to some of the more extreme examples of urban decay in the US, and I will not deny that fact. I will note that Canadian cities are "catching up", mostly for the same reasons that American cities deteriorated in the first place: rent controls, minimum wage laws, lack of choice in education and other government actions that warp market forces. I'm being simplistic for the sake of brevity, but these factors more than any other create poverty and exacerbate existing conditions.


This is subjective. I will disagree with this statement due to current experience. Many schools in the States including non-Ivy Leagues are extremely expensive. I have friends that are going to universities in Kentucky on sports and academic scholarships and they still pay 10s of thousands of dollars a year.

True enough - again, for the sake of brevity, I was sloppy in my phrasing by limiting myself to Ivy League schools. There is a great deal of variation among American schools in pricing. That's my point - American's have a degree of choice that is simply inaccessible to Canadians - unless of course they make the decision to attend an American school. And let’s not forget why people spend such sums of money to attend such an institution – because they offer specialized programs that increase demand for their product.

Another note: the academic requirements in the States are lower than in Canada for state colleges. My friend would've never gotten a scholarship to Queens, Guelph, U of T St. George, but she did at Wayne State and the University of Kentucky.

Again, this is hardly a condemnation of American institutions - instead you are making the case for them by proving my previous statement that Americans simply have a wider degree of choice than Canadians. Yes, some American colleges have lower academic standards, while some are prestigious in ways Canadian universities cannot possibly aspire. This provides Americans with an array of options that Canadians do not have.

I also take offence to the statement that American schools (including Ivy Leagues) tend to be academically superior to Canadian universities--there are quality gaps within provinces and between universities. I recently did a second year organic chem test from Yale and it was everything we covered in first year. Recent studies have shown that marks at many Ivy Leagues in the States tend to be inflated as well--exclusivity and a high price tag do not necessarily a quality education make. Talking to friends in the States who do my same program have fewer credit hours than I do try 14 compared to 25. Also many of my profs have gone from Canadian to American universities (including Ivy Leagues like Harvard and Princeton) and vice versa and they said that there was really no difference in upper years and was just like going from one university to another.

Yes, valid points all of them - though I know there have been many suggestions of grade inflation at universities in Canada as well. I don't think this is a phenomenon restricted to Ivy League institutions. I find the Yale story extremely surprising, but anythings possible, I guess. However, I do sincerely doubt that this case could be turned into a blanket statement applied to all departments at Harvard and Yale.

Surely it’s true that price is not an always indication of quality – but when one spends his money to attend an Ivy League institution, you are not only purchasing education but the respect and good will that the institution has accrued in its history.

BUT - I will stand by my statement, and I don't know why it would offend you because it's pretty self-evidently true. By the standards one would generally judge an academic institution, American schools are superior. American schools have access to a greater array of academic talent, they are funded better and they offer a greater array of options to students.


And finally about taxation, lower income Canadians pay less in takes than fellow low income Americans, for middle class Americans pay slightly less, the only large gap is between the wealthy.

If you only take income tax into account, this is true. What this does not factor in is the dizzying array of secondary taxes canadians are subject to - provincial, consumption, property, etc. When you add these together, the percentage of income taken by one form of taxation or another is MUCH higher in Canada for all income levels. This also does not take into account the fact that the cost of living is higher for Canadians, and the average Canadian's net income is significantly lower than the average American's before taxes.

flipwilson said:

Again I disagree many Americans recently had their Medicare coverage reduced or they could not afford it--due to financial strains in individual states.



But the point remains why do the need nurses from here and South Africa and across the world--they still have nurse shortages there too. Also, a personal case I got my mole removed in less than a week, my sister got her surgery --which wasn't major in less than a week too. I'm sorry, but I'd rather wait than worry about how I'd pay for my operation.

But again the average pay is 10000 dollars-- face it not all Americans can afford that.



True, tax money is needed for social programs and guess what with Bush Jr. cutting many programs the crime situation that has been getting better will worsen.



WEll, net incomes are usually lower than GROSS, and remember taxes in Canada are generally lower than American ones for the lower income earners.

No again I disagree, many of the takes in the States as we are seeing now are shifting from INCOME tax to a SALARY tax. Also take into account that taxes vary from province to province. Again take note of first world and third world differences in taxation. Yes, but also remember that although the cost of living is higher in Canada please explain what the minimum wage is in the States. Average salaries for new jobs created in the States actually dropped from around 40 000 to 35 000. Unfortunately, this will likely happen in Canada too.
The last thing you should take note of is the Gini Index--the US has a score over 0.4--think about it.



No, even second tier schools like Oberlin cost tens of thousands a year (26 000)--you totally missed my point EVEN CRAPPY SCHOOLS HAVE EXTREMELY HIGH TUITION.


No, she could have gotten a scholarship to Windsor, Laurentian--so there is choice here in Ontario too. WE have crappy schools too. THere are prestigious Canadian institutions--you just haven't opened your eyes.



Apply it to the natural science and physical science depts--who gives a crap about arts majors.
Also in our school there is no bell curving unless a certain number obtain over a certain mark then you are bell curved down. One study done at Harvard found that 35% of the kids were getting As in classes. 35%!!! At our school only about 5 % have 90 averages.



Again disagree, in Ontario there are universities and programs that cost a pretty penny and ones that are steeped in tradition. Just because an institution isn't as famed as their American counterpart doesn't make them any less of an institution. This year to get ANY scholarship at U of T St. George you had to have over a 94 average.



What is that (bolded) supposed to mean? I'm sorry, but you can't make a blanket statement about ALL schools in Canada--you live in BC--correct? Well I'm in Ontario and things are quite different here. We have many international students and programs in several of the universities here and they are internationally recognized. There are dozens of post-secondary institutions here. And how would an academic institution be judged--how much grant money they get a year, how many pristigious papers a professor publishes?

Finally, if you dislike so many programs and institutions in Canada why don't you move to the States?

ELBOOGY said:

If he toured Canada then I am sure things would pick up. He was last touring Canada on the ONA tour.... Will he tour across Canada again????.....

jazzy328is said:

Canada is located right on top of the USA. Tonya Harding is that nasty skater from the USA.

pluvv2002 said:

Obviously you need to be a tourist and come to Canada.

sonic said:

Yeah, and everyone packs a gun.

I’m going to respond to this thread one more time, then I’d prefer to leave it at that if it’s all the same to you. You’re clearly an intelligent guy, even though I’m absolutely positive that almost everything you’ve stated to this point is incorrect. Feel free to respond to my comments below, but after you do so, I’d just as soon leave this topic alone. I come to sites like this for relaxation. I get enough conflict at work. I realize it may seem that I’m playing the passive/aggressive here (I started this in the first place) but I don’t see any point in taking this further. I doubt I’m going to change your mind and I know you’re not going to change mine.

I’d like to say one further thing before I move on to my responses to your points: the reason I originally posted my comments was because I’m extremely weary of the smug, holier-than-thou attitudes that are permeating every sector of Canadian society. This country is actively proud of the things that makes it a lesser place to live, and that mystifies and angers me. I know the original poster was not a Canadian, but I just cannot let comments like that slide by without airing the truth as I see it.

OK, one last time…








Again I disagree many Americans recently had their Medicare coverage reduced or they could not afford it--due to financial strains in individual states.


That doesn’t change the fact that the legendary “40 million uninsured” argument is complete fiction. Anyway, I did not claim that the American system is perfect. It is deeply flawed, mostly due to the “managed care” (if I may borrow that exquisite banality from president Clinton) policy being pursued. What I initially argued is that

a) the Canadian system is not “free”, and
b) it is riddled with inefficiencies due to a complete absence of market mechanisms.

We are the only modernized nation who has structured our health care system in this manner. Consequently, we find long waiting lists, out-dated equipment and shortages of medical practitioners. This is not theory, this is fact and no amount of injection of cash into the system is going to fix this because the system is not underfunded. Instead, funds are (I hate to keep using this word) inefficiently allocated. MARKET DISCIPLINE! We are crying out for it.

I don’t wish for us to adopt an American system. What we will have to do eventually – and this is going to happen, either out of choice or necessity – is to allow the private sector into the supply of medical services, and make consumers carry a portion of the cost of their care themselves. Until this is done, demand will continue to expand at an uncontrollable rate and supply will continue to be inefficient.



But the point remains why do the need nurses from here and South Africa and across the world--they still have nurse shortages there too.

I’m not being facetious here – I have no idea what this means. Americans import nurses, as well as accountants, doctors, engineers because their labour market often cannot meet the needs of its population. Why do you perceive this as a weakness? As I said before, this is nothing other than a sign of over-all economic strength. In fact, it is a continuation of a trend that has gone on for centuries in world labour markets. Countless numbers of people have left their home countries to make their living in the U.S.

Edit - having re-read this, I realized that my response was slightly incomplete, as you seem to be suggesting that American demand for nurses is equivalent to Canadian demand. Surely you must appreciate the difference between demand derived from market response and shortages created by inefficiencies originating in government bureaucracy?


Also, a personal case I got my mole removed in less than a week, my sister got her surgery --which wasn't major in less than a week too. I'm sorry, but I'd rather wait than worry about how I'd pay for my operation.

Sure, I had a procedure done recently as well on the same day I was diagnosed, though it did mean waiting about in a clinic about 5 hours. I hope your not using these cases to dismiss the following:

1) the existence of waiting lists, which often leave the elderly and sick living in pain while waiting for treatment.
2) The crumbling infrastructure in our medical system – old hospitals with outdated equipment.
3) The shortage of specialists, G.P.s and front-line medical workers.



But again the average pay is 10000 dollars-- face it not all Americans can afford that.


First of all, I’m accepting your figure of $10,000. That seems a little high to me, but it may be correct. I will say that if that is the average, then that is clearly what the market will bear. I’m sure that there is an array of medical plans available to Americans who are at the lower end of the economic spectrum.

And, of course, most Americans are covered by their employers. As I said before, I do not believe the American system is the optimal means of providing health care. There are many means of utilizing public insurance without the system that we are currently under. Medical savings plans are a possible alternative.


True, tax money is needed for social programs and guess what with Bush Jr. cutting many programs the crime situation that has been getting better will worsen.

Well, Bush isn’t cutting spending – it’s exploded under his presidency. All I’ll say further is that I cannot imagine how anyone can still believe that program spending is an effective means of cutting crime and poverty. If this were so, native reservations across our country would be models of prosperity and safety. In case you didn’t know, they’re not.

If there is a “moral” to the twentieth century, it is that free markets bring prosperity, socialism brings despair. If this were not so, there would not be McDonalds restaurants in Moscow.




WEll, net incomes are usually lower than GROSS, and remember taxes in Canada are generally lower than American ones for the lower income earners.

That was a typo, as I’m sure you’ve already sussed. Obviously I intended to compare CDN gross to US gross income.



No again I disagree, many of the takes in the States as we are seeing now are shifting from INCOME tax to a SALARY tax. Also take into account that taxes vary from province to province. Again take note of first world and third world differences in taxation. Yes, but also remember that although the cost of living is higher in Canada please explain what the minimum wage is in the States.


Well, you can disagree all you like, but Canadians face higher cumulative levels of taxation than Americans at all economic strata. Yes, there are exceptions – I’d expect, for example, a New York state resident would face higher taxes than an Albertan.


I’m not sure what the minimum wage is in the States. I know that it was significantly lower about half a decade ago, and I don’t think it’s likely that would have changed in the meantime. I’m not sure why you would throw that into a discussion about cost of living. Minimum wage jobs are generally a means for young people to gain entrance into the labour market. Higher minimum wages simply restrict the number of jobs available to those looking to enter the labour market. It’s a fact as solid as gravity – if you put a floor on wages, you will restrict the supply of jobs. Minimum wages are about the harshest penalty against poor people that governments have ever created.




Average salaries for new jobs created in the States actually dropped from around 40 000 to 35 000. Unfortunately, this will likely happen in Canada too.


I wasn’t aware of this statistic, but I have no reason to doubt it given the effects of the tech economy collapse and 9-11. However please note that the US economy is currently growing at a healthy “4.5%, compared to ours at 2.2% and the European states at 1%” – quoted from today’s National Post. Undoubtedly starting wages will rise correspondingly

But why limit our discussion to the US? Consider Ireland, which was perhaps the greatest economic miracle of the nineties. Again, I am citing today’s Post, though this is commonly acknowledged – Ireland slashed taxes and controlled spending, and grew at a rate between 6% and 10% in the past decade.



The last thing you should take note of is the Gini Index--the US has a score over 0.4--think about it.

I’m sorry, but this is meaningless – inequality by itself means nothing, unless you just like to feed on petty jealousy. What matters is how the standard of living of the average person is raised, and the average person in the US has a higher standard of living that the average Canadian by any and every economic marker.

What so many people don’t understand is that it doesn’t really matter if the rich get richer!!! A person who has a billion dollars does not have a higher standard of living than a person who has 20 million dollars in any meaningful way. What does matter is that the standard of living for middle income people has improved dramatically in the past 100 years in free market countries, and that is due to the same system that produces the many rich people of which middle income types like to be so jealous. To paraphrase PJ Orourke – “Don’t believe me? Two words – dental plans.”





No, even second tier schools like Oberlin cost tens of thousands a year (26 000)--you totally missed my point EVEN CRAPPY SCHOOLS HAVE EXTREMELY HIGH TUITION.


Well, I don’t have the time and initiative to research this, but (no offence) I don’t completely believe you. I’m sure that there are many institutions in the US that offer reasonable tuition fees to students.

But let me go off on a tangent here. Why are high tuition fees so awful? Since students are the beneficiaries of their education, isn’t it fair that they should bear a reasonable portion of the cost? I’m sure you’ve known many people, as I have, who have attended university not to further their careers or knowledge, but to extend their adolescence. Why should we subsidize their perpetual childhood?

In fact, subsidizing university education does little more than transfer tax from lower income people to upper income people. (this applies to arts funding as well) Because upper income people are far more likely to utilize post-secondary resources than lower income people, the effect is a tax transfer from lower to upper income people. The effect on the middle class is basically a wash.




No, she could have gotten a scholarship to Windsor, Laurentian--so there is choice here in Ontario too. WE have crappy schools too. THere are prestigious Canadian institutions--you just haven't opened your eyes.


Well, I didn’t state there weren’t prestigious institutions in Canada, or lousy ones. I went to a lousy one. What I did say is that Americans have a greater ability to choose. I don’t see how the presence of lousy schools in Canada refutes that.





Apply it to the natural science and physical science depts--who gives a crap about arts majors.
Also in our school there is no bell curving unless a certain number obtain over a certain mark then you are bell curved down. One study done at Harvard found that 35% of the kids were getting As in classes. 35%!!! At our school only about 5 % have 90 averages.

Hey, I agree - arts majors are the same real-life-procrastinators I was just lamenting.

Well, there may be grade inflation – but certainly you must admit that a good portion of that difference is due to the incredibly high standards of admission at Harvard!




Again disagree, in Ontario there are universities and programs that cost a pretty penny and ones that are steeped in tradition. Just because an institution isn't as famed as their American counterpart doesn't make them any less of an institution. This year to get ANY scholarship at U of T St. George you had to have over a 94 average.


I guess it was your turn to miss a point – when you pay tuition to an Ivy League school, you are paying a premium to buy a brand name.






What is that (bolded) supposed to mean?

I was responding to your comment that I had offended you. I don’t think I said anything that was worth getting offended over.


I'm sorry, but you can't make a blanket statement about ALL schools in Canada--you live in BC--correct?

I’m not – we’re speaking in generalities and averages. Making such arguments allows room for deviation from the mean.



Well I'm in Ontario and things are quite different here. We have many international students and programs in several of the universities here and they are internationally recognized. There are dozens of post-secondary institutions here. And how would an academic institution be judged--how much grant money they get a year, how many pristigious papers a professor publishes?


Well there are lots of international students in BC too, though that’s not where I live. If you look at my profile, you’ll see that I bear the misfortune of laying my hat in Canada’s armpit, the city of Winnipeg. (They used to call it the heart of the continent, but I think "armpit of Canada" is much more appropriate). Before you say “well, no wonder”, please note that I have lived in Calgary and Montreal as well.

How should academic institutions be judged? By the excellence of professors, by funding, and by the quality of their product obviously.





Finally, if you dislike so many programs and institutions in Canada why don't you move to the States?

Because, as I said before, moving is a heavy burden and I was lucky and (I like to think) savvy enough to choose a profession where I can make a healthy living almost anywhere. However, I would love to do so if the opportunity presents itself. If a headhunter were to make an offer, I’d expect I would accept.


Okay - I'm glad that's over. Have at me...
[This message was edited Tue Jun 1 18:35:40 2004 by flipwilson]
[This message was edited Tue Jun 1 20:04:25 2004 by flipwilson]

CANADA SUCKS!!!!! .Besides 0+> is 2 good 4 them anyways