Maybe that title is a bit misleading but soooo many of u seem to of hated prince's attempt at incorperating some hiphop into his music and yet love his jazz inspired stuff!
If u don't like hiphop in general then fine, but i don't hate his Jazz stuff just because i don't like jazz, I don't say its shit, it just ain't 4 me as I dont really like Jazz in general!

'cause in fact Prince fusion to include more hiphop was very good I thought (around early 90's albums) and "Goldnigga" is also a great album!

Was he just following trends? No, I just think he wanted to try something different like he did with jazz! Songs like "Gett off" "The max" "The flow" "Push" "pope" "P control" "Call the law" "Jughead" are good pop/hiphop that is very funky and fun! I just tend to think that 4 some reason, hardly any fans of prince like hiphop as they always seemed to of hated his attempts in the early 90's! Is this true? Also is it princes older early-mid 80's fans that don't like his hiphop stuff 'cause they don't like hiphop?

well i do like some hip hop music but not all of it.

some of P's stuff with rap in it in my opinion sounds kind of corny. I think its mostly that stuff with Tony M. in it. It was as if he was trying too hard to get a younger audience...

but i also just think it depends on the song.

I prefer for P to just be himself but because he is such a versatile artist, he can be successful at any type of music he creates.

I don't mind the hip hop stuff as long as it doesn't become a Hammer re-run...
ya'll remember when Hammer tried to go "Gangsta"? Well that was a disaster..

thesexofit said:

Yes... He was out to make a "hit" album and he was reaching out to his black audience and Rap and Hip-Hop was starting to flourish to the crap it is now...


I love real Hip-Hop but back then Prince's attempt at Rap and Hip-Hop we're rather embarrassing with the likes of Black Sheep, De La, Tribe, Ice Cube, NWA, Public Enemy, Ice T, Paris, Tim Dog etc. or even kiddie rap like DAS EFX and Naughty By Nature putting stuff out at the same time...
Not to talk about his attempts of coming off all gangsta and shit... Didn't work well for him and it still doesn't...

Neversin.

There have been LOADS of hate expressed about the "jazz" phase.

Those that hate Prince's "hip-hop" phase basically fall into two camps. Work with me here . There are those that can't stand hip-hop-- whose opinions on the subject don't hold any weight because of that-- and there are those such as myself who love it. Those of us who love it and know it realize that there are many things wrong with Prince's attempts.

The number one thing you have to have is proper timing if you're gonna rhyme. Neither Prince nor his hired hacks had that. Secondly, there are the beats. Most of Prince's hip-hop inspired songs didn't have solid beats or grooves to rhyme to. Finally, there's that matter of pulling off the persona you're trying to portray. Tony M for example tried to come off hard core but even he couldn't have believed that. Somebody like Ice Cube or Tupac on the other hand could, even though they weren't gangstas themselves.

Prince is a musician first and foremost so his forays into jazz are bound to be more successful than those into hip-hop-- he's not a rapper. You've got to live and breathe hip-hop to be good at it. It's not as easy as people would like to make it out to be especially if you didn't grow up with it.

That reminds me: Prince and mainstream America have both made the mistake of using the simplistic rhyme patterns of early rappers like Run DMC, Whodini, and the likes as their ideal of a rapper. Rap was on an entirely different level by the time Prince finally got into it. It was easy to dismiss rap in its earlier incarnations and that's what you saw being spoofed and even promoted seriously later on (see Puff Daddy) when companies found it was easy to sell.
[This message was edited Mon Apr 26 10:50:10 2004 by whodknee]

Very well put, whodknee. I like hip-hop music but not many of Prince's forays into it. Hip-hop is not just a genre of music. It's a lifestyle and a culture, and he did not come from there. Grafting a few rote sounds and styles onto your own music to appropriate another culture is ethically suspect, usually sounds inauthentic, and is just plain lazy. It's why I always loathed acts like UB40 and Snow. Spare me wannabe rap and fake reggae, please.

What's worse is that Prince often expressed his contempt for rappers, classifying them as lesser artists than himself. When he did a 180 and tried rap himself, it looked like he resented their success and was determined to beat them at their own game. Except he couldn't, and the end results were sometimes embarrassing.

By the way, is that supposed to be a bit of dancehall in "The Sun, the Moon and Stars" and "Life O' the Party"? If so, he needs to quit it. Right now.

thesexofit said:

Yep, that's me.

What's worse than hip-hop/rap?

Someone trying to hard to do hip-hop, and failing miserably - see: Prince.

None of the genre's Prince has incorporated into his sound can fairly be compared to a "pure" form of the music. Meaning that Prince's use of New Wave doesn't sound like pure New Wave, his jazz doesn't sound like Miles or Coltrane or whomever.

I think this has been a point that has been missed time and time again when the subject about Prince and hip hop comes up . He was never trying to compete with NWA or whomever. Just like in the 80's he was never trying to compete with Devo with his synth sounds. He was just taking other forms of music and "turning it purple."

skywalker said:

I agree. Prince never really does anything pure, he twists it, "purple" like you say.

There was a time though, that magical time, we all know, where his music, it was like some new genre.

Whatever genre he was hitting on, it was almost like a new genre: "Prince".

His music is still like that, in that his music has his stamp undeniably all over it, but it seems tarnished with a "trying to sound like" syndrome.

i'm thinking it's because jazz naturally flows from him effortlessly.

as opposed to trying real hard to come with the hip hop...

it's just something he hasn't been able to do successfully.

not yet at least.

If I had to choose between the two, I'd pick his jazz stuff. The hip-hop seems contrived and it doesn't suit him.

I like real hiphop too (eg Tupac,NWA,Nas,Public enemy but not really Eminem) but why is it fake, as someone else said, prince did not completely borrow from anyone, just did his own spin on it, though Tony M was maybe a contrived attempt for a hardcore rapper but i quite liked his raps personally, good on stage too!

Also hiphop in general does not have to be serious or polital or have a message at all! Prince just embraced the culture a little and had fun ith it! The fact that only good hiphop has to be negative "Real" shit is bogus!

Don't get me wrong, I like that side of hiphop but I also like the party and positive side like Digital underground,Wrecks n effect,naughty by nature and yes even Mc Hammer (who was at least an original), and Princes hiphop is NOT meant to be taken seriously and alot of hiphop lovers sadly only like so called "Real" stuff which is fine, but don't say that all party fun rappers are fake, that real tough, street/gheto image does not have to be serious, it can be fun and positive too!

Anyway,maybe when you think of Prince and hiphop u just remember Tony M and despite me liking Tony's contributions to certain tracks, Prince has done other purple hiphop of his own too! (Carmen electra was punished too much 4 her album, tracks like "Everybody get on up","fantasia erotica","S.T", even "Go,go dancer" are good fun tracks, not meant to be taken seriously, which hiphop suffers In general I think)

(Does anyone like Tony M?)

I didn't care or pay attention to any of this stuff until you guys started mentioning it. I still don't care I enjoyed the "rap" stuff or whatever for what it was...

One other thing-

I get the feeling that a hardcore jazz enthusiast would feel as if Prince's incorporation of jazz into his mix is a contrived and derivative as some think his take on hip hop is. Personally I think the best rapping on Prince's albums is the rapping he does himself.

I missed this whole phase of his career while it was playing out. Perhaps if I had heard more the "hip hop" stuff at the time, I would have a higher opinion of it. Hearing it now, it has not aged well. It sounds like an attempt to stay relevant with what was popular at the time (similar in my opinion to what U2 did with the Pop album). While Prince has managed to sound distinct and unique through most of his career, during this phase he sounds more like he was just one of the pack.

P.S. If anyone knows a track or two that they think holds up really well, I'd like to hear it. It could just be that I have not heard enough of this material.

suedehead said:

I disagree. When Prince added rap elements to his mix it still didn't sound like anyone else at the time. He didn't sound like another one of the pack. He wasn't trying to copy anyone he was taking rap and trying to do his thing with it making it something unique.
[This message was edited Mon Apr 26 17:29:22 2004 by skywalker]

Many pplz probably just ayn use 2 hearin' him doin' R/HH just the usual he does. I neva hadda prob wit his R/HH era. It's the specific type I'd judge on..I can see him doin' HH..NEVA EVA has came in my mind of him doin' Gangsta Rap(IMO I'd say he's a betrayer-cuz he's tryna be sumthin' he's not). & this sorda reminds me of 50 Cent & Ja Rule's arguement they had on whose the "real" deal in the Gangsta Rap biz. 50 Cent as many know actually lived da life & Ja Rule...well didn't. Of course SUM that didn't live the life aren't that bad. Ja Rule I neva really cared 4(h8'd his singing on 'Mesmerize'-the vid copied the near 2 end scene of 'Grease' ya know when Sandy goes bad)

Newayz,I think Prince probably chose a bad time 2 come in2 the biz. He came when Gangsta Rap wuz taken over. He shoulda got in2 it wit Whodini,Run DMC,Doug E. Fresh,Get Fresh Crew,Common,Fresh Prince(Will Smith) & etc. Those guys-IMO rapped about just regular life "their" life whether it wuz in the "ghetto" or not. Now I know I miss THAT typa feeling in R/HH. & 'Life 'O' The Party' yeah it sum rappin' in that..but it's good,doesn't seem forced 2 me. & that's the thing P can get in2 2day's style of music or the usual classified genre black ppls are known 4,it's just he does it "HIS" own way puttin' that Purple Flava in it.

Did'chall even know that in 'Girls and Boys' he slipped in sum rappin' in it? I had asked that on anotha thread & EWM said he heard it 2 & said that's how far he'd eva want Prince 2 go in rappin'. Newayz listen from 4:08-4:16 he sounds like he's rappin' that lyric. So even b4 he officially stepped in2 Rap he done a bit of it in '86. Oh a good movie 2 watch that really talks about R/HH use 2 be & should be 2day is 'Brown Sugar'(2002)-starring Sanaa Lathan,Taye Diggs,QL,Mos Def(he's a rappa),Boris Kodjoe,& etc. That's a good choice 4 tellin' the feelin' on how Hip Hop would give ya(back in the day @least). I have it on VHS. & his jazz side is good,I dun hava prob wit it.

All in IMO.

Everybody can have their opinion about anything, and we should accept and respect the diversity of opinions, except regarding one topic:

Tony M.

Discussion of Tony M. is a whole separate issue that lies outside the boundaries of respect for others' opinions and is governed by a universal law of truth and pure fact.

Tony M. is awful. Anything contrary to this can morally and righteously be termed ridiculous and ill-informed.

When u hear Tony M. rap, if you don't or then you need to book yourself a CAT scan.

I liked some of Prince's hip hop phase, depending on the mood I am in.
I also liked some of Prince's jazz music.

I belive we all forgot about a record Prince Made back in the early 80's called Irresitable B****. Was he signing or rapping. Have a listen I know we all have it.