Maybe I'm being stupid, but this thought has crossed my mind.

When Prince "handed over" his original configurations of unreleased albums to Warner executives, did they immediately become their property?

Take for instance, the 'Camille' album... The only song to remain officially unreleased is 'Rebirth Of The Flesh'. The NPGMC offered a download of a rehearsal of the track but not the original recording. Why?

Other tracks which surfaced on the Crystal Ball (1998) set were either edits, remixes or segued into other songs. Would creating a segue into another song constitute another version of the track (and thus render Warners' legal claim of ownership null and void)? I'm thinking specifically of the short version of 'Good Love' and the edited 'Movie Star'... Maybe Wendy & Lisa were edited out of 'Crystal Ball' and 'Dream Factory' (the songs), for legal reasons!

Or... Did the short versions of 'Good Love' and 'Movie Star' already exist (for possible use as singles or B-Sides)? Was it just that Warners own the "long" versions as they were submitted to them (as part of the configurations of the 'Camille' and 'Dream Factory' albums respectively) but never owned the "short" versions because they were never submitted as album tracks???

Was 'Splash' ever actually submitted to Warners as being part of any planned album's tracklist? Is this why the download became available through the NPGMC?

Am I jumping to conclusions? What was the actual legal agreement between Prince handing over an album configuration to Warner Bros. Records at that time? Did they instantly own those songs even if they didn't release them? Is that why the Black Album came to be released?

I've been trying to find out how the ownership thing would work.

According to this website: http://www.recordlabelres...onary.html the term "master" simply denotes a tape from which copies are made for records to be pressed.

The Camille album had a catalogue number, so it obviously had a master. Thus, it would seem that Warner Music should (by rights) own the original version of 'Rebirth Of The Flesh'.

If Prince is correct in saying that Warners own his masters, it seems logical that any unreleased masters belong to them too.

This would explain a lot.
[This message was edited Sun Apr 18 18:57:44 2004 by BinaryJustin]

Does anybody know what I'm talking about?

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that anything Prince OFFICIALLY RELEASED under the Warner Bros. era belong to them. Anything Prince recorded on his own but never handed over to Warner are his to do what he pleases with. He has complete ownership of all unreleased recordings.

Now unreleased stuff that was submitted to Warner for projects that never came to fruition? Dont know the answer to that one.

Peace

Sorry, but
does that mean that WB will own those records FOREVER???
I mean... They owned P's NAME until 1999, but what about the songs???

By the way
Didn't P promise he would re-record all his albums???
He never did
and with all the Witness' thing... I doubt that could happen in this lifetime

TOO BAD
[This message was edited Sun Apr 18 19:32:38 2004 by tritoncin]

I had stopped listening to Prince when the fight with WB went down, so excuse my ignorance.

Why did P hand over his masters to WB?
Is he still able to make money off of the songs that WB owns?

Thanks in advance...

tritoncin said:

I think the ownership of the masters reverts to him after a certain period of time. I guess it would happen chronologically. I really don't know when he actually gets them back.

I'm completely believing my own theory about the unreleased stuff though. If it was part of an album configuration submitted to Warners - whether released or not - it must "belong" to them. It would explain why a lot of the stuff on the Crystal Ball (1998) set was crappy 90s remixes instead of classic 80s unreleased vault material. It would also explain why the 80s tracks which did appear were differing versions from the original bootlegged album versions.

The NPGMC downloads of both 'Splash' and 'Empty Room' sound like the versions previously available on bootlegs. If my theory is correct, by process of elimination, these tracks would never have been part of any proposed album configuration as a master would have been made containing these tracks.

Good question. I dont know the answer though.

Wouldn't the answer lie in the WB release of "The Vault?"

Songs such as "There is Lonely" had appeared only on boots, but Warners released a CD full of what had been rarities & outtakes.

Which made me wonder then: "Why doesn't Prince do the same thing?"

Maybe BinaryJustin is on to something.

no, they don't own anything that wasn't officially released by them.


and the reason why "The Vault" album is the way it is, is because he assembled it at the same time as C&D and handed it over to them as contract filler.

I'm not sure, but I think anything recorded during the WB contract (at least anything that was funded by WB) belongs to WB.

I would say that this would only apply to pre-Paisley Park (the facility) songs. Anything non-album songs after that, Prince would've made there and paid for himself.

There probably aren't THAT many pre-1985 songs that aren't released, right?
[This message was edited Sun Apr 18 23:08:50 2004 by Se7en]

They own everything Prince has handed them over and confirmed by a legally valid document. No, the Warners aren't "a mind-police" who would own all Prince's sketches from the 80s just because Prince was under a recording contract then. But if for instance the Camille album would have been given a catalog number or just the tapes being handed over there is a also the chance that Warner's do own the master recording of "The Rebirth Of The Flesh". It all depends on the structure of his deal - it may say that the author of the recordings regains the ownership of the master recordings after a said number of years if the label fails to release them publicly in an agreed format.

Hmm, interesting theory.

Without knowing the details of Prince's contract with WB we can't know for sure who owns what.
When it comes to unreleased material, the ownership can vary from contract to contract
(usually dependant on whether the artist or the record company paid for the recording session).
Since Prince has recorded his material himself for years (at least since Paisleu Park was built),
I would guess that he owns the masters to any songs not handed over to WB for inclusion on
an album etc. Though of course we can't be sure where this leaves tracks that were handed
over to WB as part of an album, but were then (for whatever reason) not released.

Good Love WAS released officially on the Bright Lights Big City soundtrack, so it would definitely
be subject to the same terms as any of Prince's other albums released by WB. So I do think
that was the reason it was edited for inclusion on Crystal Ball (to make it a 'different version'
and therefore not subject to WB's ownership). As for Rebirth Of The Flesh, this was submitted
to WB twice as part of a potential album. Once on the Camille album, then again as part of
the original Crystal Ball 3lp set. So I was going to say that because of this, it is possible that
WB may have some hold over the track. But, Crystal Ball IS the same version that was
submitted to WB as part of the orginal album of the same name, so this seems to contradict
this theory (Prince had already remixed the track and removed Wendy & Lisa's contributions
after Dream Factory had been scrapped).

Just to confuse matters further, Prince has included material officially released by WB as part
of NPGMC's downloads over the years, without changing them (not very often, but it has
happened). It's all a very grey area.

BorisFishpaw said:

I agree with all that you have said, Boris, apart from being less that 100% certain about this aspect.

It is possible that this song was subject to a separate contractual arrangement (on slightly different terms) exclusive of Prince's prevailing WB contract at the time.
.

All very interesting points and certainly an area that probably does not have a definitive answer (no two artist contracts will be the same etc).

However, I would add that it would seem likely that Prince did not head over to Warners with the master tapes under his arm and then "submit" them for possible release. He would probably take(send) a copy to play them. If they rejected he would need to continue working on the master tapes before resubmitting?

I don't believe that Warners would own the triple LP version of Crystal Ball as the master tapaes for those would most likely still be in Prince's possession?

Surely Warners need to physically have possession of the tapes in their vault. It's like when Prince "submitted" TGE for release by Warners in 1994 (he wanted it released simultaneously with Come) and they rejected it for the time being. Prince then refused to hand over the master tapes (and that was one of the reasons the release kept getting pushed back as Warners were considering releasing it early 94 but couldn't as Prince had the tapes).
[This message was edited Mon Apr 19 3:04:33 2004 by jaypotton]

BinaryJustin said:

he probably edited them out because he didn't want to pay them for their writing contributions.

also, nothing that didn't make it onto an album was owned by Warner. if they rejected albums, he took them back and what he resubmitted and was released is what WB owns (so they don't have Movie Star). this is why, for example, they had to work out a new deal for the Black Album in 1994. they couldn't just go ahead and put it out without his say-so.

as for Good Love, it wasn't actually released by Warner Bros. it was on a Geffen soundtrack...

BorisFishpaw said:

just off the top of my head, weren't all of those songs from the later WB years? say, from C&D and what not?

we know that he renegotiated his deal in early 1996, and handing over Girl 6, C&D and OF4S (plus an option to release a compilation at a later date), so perhaps the terms of that new deal allow him use of things from those albums.

but then again, there are things like Horny Pony, and a few old extended remixes. but again, that was a b-side, and didn't even turn up on the B-Sides album, so perhaps he retained ownership of b-sides as well, as long as they weren't released on an album....

.... humm.

jaypotton said:

No.

What Warners would 'own' is certain rights regarding use of the master recording for a specific period. It wouldn't matter whether Prince or Warners held possession of the master - it's what they can be used for by whom that is key.
.

.

GrayKing said:

See original soundtrack album and disc which states:

"Compilation Published 1988 Warner Bros Records Inc, a Warner Communications Company," (disc)

"Warner Bros" (on spine)

"Original soundtrack album available on Warner Bros records, cassesttes and compact discs." (liner notes)

.

langebleu said:

yes, you're right. my mistake. i don't have mine with me at the moment, but i think somewhere in there it indicates "Prince appears courtesy of Paisley Park Records" as if to signify that he was on loan for that special project, and was acting as an independent contributor.

or maybe i'm thinking of something else....

GrayKing said:

You are right. the Paisley Park Records credit is there as are all the other courtesy credits to the other artists record labels. (It's one of the reasons that I think the song inclusion was possibly subject to a slightly different contractual arrangement to the one he had with WB at the time.)
.

langebleu said:

that's the point i was making too. but for some reason, i remembered it being a Geffen album. anyway, thanks for the correction.

Well 1999's Old Friends 4 sale was a Clear Distinction of What WB might have in their possession
It was made as a perverbially slap in the Face 2 Prince!
think about it this way from
1979-1990 Do u know how Much P has Recorded and Entered in2 the WB catalogue Unreleased and released alike
Whatever P presented Warner with the mastertapes belong to them
What P was Mad at was that They Could Release unreleased material without even confiding him
P is still mad he may not show it but its a bitter hatred...its goin be a big year for him
there's money to be made
might be the year he can buy back his catalogue...
the tour is most likely gon profit 75 million in revenues and Musicology might just be the biggest thing since Diamonds and Pearls and will make probably over 50 million in global revenues...
if he even goes platinum thats 20 million...

theres money to be made...

Luv4oneanotha said:

i'm sorry, but you're wrong. all WB had left was the "Vault: OF4S" album. and they didn't just cobble it together out of stuff that was leftovers from things he'd given them here and there. that album was assembled by Prince at the same time Chaos & Disorder was assembled and given to them, in order to get out of his contract. they chose to release C&D at that time, and save OF4S for a later time. their final new Prince release, under the terms of his exit contract was The Very Best Of Prince, released in 1994. after Girl 6, he owed them 2 albums and a compilation. C&D and OF4S were the 2 albums he put together for them, and they released TVBOP as the final album under the contract.

They even own his black bikini underwear.

GrayKing said:

so it's Prince who doesn't want to release his material....?????

Something is wrong here....

BorisFishpaw said:


What if... Because the tracks in questions were "bundled" along with new material available for download as part of the NPGMC membership, he was allowed to do this - so long as they weren't sold separately. You know like cable or satellite tv packages where you'll pay for the package regardless of whether or not you watch all the channels...

My conclusions are:

01) That Warner Music do own the licensing rights to some of the vault material. This ownership is legally binding because the material was submitted to them as a "master" - whther released or unreleased;

02) In instances where vault material has been released by NPG Records it is either:
a) An alternate version because Warner Music own the original;
b) The original version because it was never submitted to Warner Music as part of a "master".

03) In instances when material officially released by Warner Music has been made available by the NPGMC for download, Prince has been able to do so because he hasn't made a specific monetary charge for the download;

04) Re-mastered material is considered to be a "new" recording. If Prince had the time or inclination, by re-mastering the music from the source tapes, Warner Music would not automatically own this music.*

*I can't find any evidence to support this, except for this statement from MTV.com:



http://www.mtv.com/news/a...ince.jhtml

Now does re-record mean starting from scratch or could it be defined as re-mastering the source tapes?

I can't find the answer anywhere on the internet!!!

As for the issue of when ownership of the masters reverts back to Prince - its 35 years.

This text is taken from Launch.com:



http://launch.yahoo.com/r...tID=163132

So, the For You album becomes Prince's property again in 2013; The Prince album in 2014 and so on... Prince had the foresight to jump ship prior to the amendment in 1999. I had no idea about this until now - no wonder Prince was so angry!!!

The fact that the legend "Prince appears courtesy of Paisley Park Records" is written in the liner notes of a various artists album is nothing to do with ownership of his masters. Its a legal formality when an artist is contracted to a specific record label - even if that record label is owned by the same record company.

As for "The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale" album... I think that this is even more evidence that Prince is sitting on the "good" stuff until either:

a) He can make money by selling the good stuff himself once under his ownership;
b) He can force himself to re-master the original source tapes of the stuff we're all really waiting for.

Well - that's what I think.

BinaryJustin said:

The legal amendment included in The Intellectual Property and Communications Omnibus Reform Act of 1999 was the subject of postings (through Prince most probably) on the official website at the time.

Prince showed no foresight in 'jumping ship' before the amendment. He no longer had any recording obligations with Warners - although Warners still owned the rights to the masters and, at that stage, publishing rights (now administered by Universal).

As it stands, The Omnibus Act amends the definition of a "work for hire" to include "sound recordings" in the list of types of specially ordered or commissioned works that may be works made for hire if the contracting parties expressly agree in a writing to do so. Effectively, artists entering into recording contracts need to read those contracts even more closely to ensure they are not being specifically commissiioned to produce a 'work for hire' - which can now include sound recordings.

But the amendment would not have affected his own recordings because, as far as we are aware, he had never expressly agreed to deliver his material as 'works for hire'.


For clarification, I don't think anyone was suggesting that the legend was asserting any ownership of rights to masters. In my case, I was simply confirming that the legend was there.
.

Dumb question (maybe) but:

Is ownership of the "Master" a physical, tangible thing? Meaning, does WB really have the reel or DAT (or whatever) in their possession? Like in a vault or storage facility?

OR, does Prince still have the physical Master in HIS vault, and the "ownership" is a legal term . . .

Like Prince actually might have physical possession of all his tapes, but his hands are tied as to what he can actually DO with them because WB has the legal rights?

Just wondering . . .
[This message was edited Mon Apr 19 16:54:32 2004 by Se7en]

BinaryJustin said:

Good points, and some nice research in there too. Can't believe it's still 9 more years until his FIRST album reverts back to him . . .

One thing my mind cannot POSSIBLY fathom is that he's sitting on the "good" stuff . . . if any of that is better than his 80's output, I don't know if I could handle it! But, I can hope . . .