illimack said:

And, Christians often refer to the Jehovah-based names of God that have Hebrew roots:

Jehova- Self-existing One, Most High God; Genesis 2:7

Jehova-Jireh- The Lord Will Provide; Genesis 22:14

Jehova-Nissi- The Lord our Banner, Victor in all Battles; Exodus 17:5

Jehova-Raah- The Lord my Good, Great, Chief Shepherd; Psalm 23:1

Jehova-Rapha- The Lord that Heals, Great Physician; Exodus 15:26

Jehova-Shalom The Lord of Peace, My Peace; Judges 6:24

Jehova-Shammah- The Lord is There, With US and In Us; Ezekiel 48:35

Jehova-Tsidkenu- The Lord My Righteousness (Jesus); Jeremiah 23:5-6


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[This message was edited Wed Apr 14 12:46:43 2004 by ThreadBare]

ThreadBare said:

All well and good my friend....:LOL: And believe me, I'm not trying to debate with you cause I've read many of your post and I know who to go there with and who not to go there with.
But, you didn't answer my question. Where does Jesus himself.....not Paul, not any of the New Testament writers....Where does Jesus say worship me?

illimack said:

JOHN ONE ONE

IN BEGINNING WAS WORD

WORD WITH GOD

WORD WAS GOD

THAT MEAN JESUS WITH GOD AND GOD AT SAME TIME!

ALSO

MUSLIM AND JEW THINK JESUS LIE!

THEY THINK JESUS FALSE MESSIAH!

NOT GREAT PROHPET

THEY SAY THAT TO BE NICE

THAT WHAT THEY BELIEVE!

POOK FLING TRUTH TODAY!

booyah said:

Here are some fairly recent lyrics.

There's a theocratic order.
There's a theocratic order now

This is how it's gonna b
If u wanna b with me
Ain't no room 4 disagree
1+1+1 is 3

Take ur time and think it thru
If this is what u wanna do
I ain't really that hard 2 please
Cuz 1+1+1 is 3

Notice that Prince is stressing a "theocratic order". Theocratic (Of or pertaining to a theocracy; administred by the immediate direction of God).
He then goes on to point out the seemingly obvious point that 1+1+1=3.

If you read the lyrics in a religious context, Prince may be saying
that the traditional Christian concept of the Trinity (Three in one, aka /"Triune") is false.
That the true "theocratic order" places Jehovah above Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Thus 1+1+1=3.


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[This message was edited Wed Apr 14 13:09:21 2004 by Universaluv]

illimack said:

Here we go, amigo; sorry to have seemed elusive. Sometimes I go big-picture, when only a simple answer is required:

John 5:22 -- "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, (23) that all may honor the Sun just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him."

ThreadBare said:

He also said.....now I don't know exactly where this is but you probably do..." The Father is greater than I am."

The quote that you gave is close, but no cigar. "Honor" and "Whorship" are two different words.

Universaluv said:

Ya know, I hadn't looked at that part of the lyrics so closely before.
You may be onto something there. But if that's the case, it's in agreement with the scriptures. Jesus came to do the work of his Father, and to sanctify his Father's name, not his own.

OdysseyMiles said:

Whether or not it's an accurate take on the Scriptures is a theological debate that I am not
about to get into.

I will say that it is in agreement with the JW interpretation of the Scriptures.

It's also contrary to the traditional Christian interpretation of the Scriptures regarding the concept of the Trinity.

p.s. if ya'll are interested there's a decent discussion of the religious background behind the concept of Trinity at http://beliefnet.com/stor...187_1.html .

Good luck though cause it ain't exactly the easiest concept to wrap your head around.


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[This message was edited Wed Apr 14 13:32:56 2004 by Universaluv]

Universaluv said:

Thanks for this. I understand what you're saying, and I've always taken this differently. I've taken it to refer back to some of the voiceover of the whole album, of the woman in subjection to the man, and the man in subjection to God. That's a theocratic order. ie. God is the lord that both man and woman serve under. But woman is in subjection to man. "This is how it's gonna be / if you wanna be with me".

On a separate note, I also find it interesting that The Everlasting Now and Last December both mention two parts of the Trinity while missing The Holy Spirit ("Accurate knowledge of Christ and the Father", "In the name of the Father, in the name of the Son"). Any thoughts on that?

booyah said:

JW's do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. They believe that is a "force" . I can't totally explain it. Mabye one of them will chime in.

illimack said:

Chiming in!!
You're right Illi, we believe that the Holy Spirit is God's active force that he uses to get things accomplished. Plus, when you listen to the song, he was rhyming "in the name of the Father, in the name of the son/we gotta come together, come together as one". He wasn't trying to include members of a Trinity into the song, so much as stress the need to approach the Father in the name of the son. JWs pray to Jehovah in Jesus' name.

booyah said:

I'll have to meditate on that for a minute


But I almost forgot what I actually heard Prince say live in person once. 2 years ago at the ONA concert in Dallas at the soundcheck he was chatting with the NPGMC members.

So this one freaky () girl gets up and starts to recite some strange ass poem.
Halfway through she says something about "the Trinity" and Prince cuts her off and
says something like "Whoa hey, there's no Trinity in here" .
He then thanked us, said he had to change clothes and split.

Anyway, it's a small thing but I remember at the time that it stood out to me.

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[This message was edited Wed Apr 14 13:52:35 2004 by Universaluv]

illimack said:

And yet, in the Christian experience of woship, those two words are used interchangeably, along with other verbs of glorification: "Lord, I honor You. Lord, I worship You. Jesus, I glorify You. I magnify You."

I find, given Jesus' equation of himself with God the Father as His Son (particularly in the Gospel of John), the glorification of Christ throughout the Bible but most explicitly in Revelation and instances of His worship throughout the Gospels (an act He wouldn't have tolerated were He not declaring His deity -- especially in Jewish culture), the exhortation to worship Christ as God is wholly Christian, as in of Christ.

Universaluv said:

This is the best breakdown I've ever seen.

Man, I wish I could have gotten in on this earlier (had to go and pay bills, etc. )

Re-born in Christ member speaking here. Yes, the whole concept of the Trinity is indeed a bugga bear among Christians. You really can't say that all Christians think one way or the other about it.

I was raised Baptist, and I can tell you for a fact that most of the people I've known do not consider Jesus to be God, and see Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit as being separate. We definitley see the holy spirit as just that, energy (ever seen people catch the Holy Ghost in church and start speakin' in tongues?) That's the spirit at work.

HOWEVER, I have indeed met people who are Baptist and other denominations that believe that Jesus is God, and that they are one. They base it on a scripture in the NT where Jesus is saying that He and the father are one. People have taken that to mean that he is God, but that's not what he meant. If you read the majority of what Christ says about himself in the Gospels, you can CLEARLY see that he makes a distinction between himself and God. He does assert time and time again that HE IS divine, and the Son of God, but not God.

Hope this helps.

Jade said:

NICE.

Jade said:

Cand the church say AMEN!!!!!

That pretty much does sum it up. Some Baptists believe that Jesus is God. Some don't. I remember years ago, I was dating a pentacostal dude. He used to argue me down that Jesus was God. I was cool with agreeing to disagree. But he wouldn't have it any other way.

In the original lyrics of I Would Die 4 U (clearly written from Jesus' perspective), Prince sings: "I'm not a woman, I'm not a man, I am something that you'll never understand."

Does he still sing these lyrics like this? I know he's changed other words ("I'm not a lover, I'm not a friend" is now "I'm not a lover, but I'll be your friend"). If he's changed the lyrics above, this may give us an insight on how he views Jesus now. Can anyone recall from a recent show or the simulcast?

ThreadBare said:

I tried to orgnote you but I don't think mine are working today.
I don't agree that we can use "honor" interchageably with "worship". THe Bible tells us to "honor" our mother and father. That does not mean that we "worship" them. You still haven't told me where Jesus tells people to worship or pray to him.

Thanks Odyssey.

Something else for Christians to consider: When you're reading the New Testament, you need to understand what it is you're reading. So for example, if you're reading because you want to see what Jesus himself had to say about such and such a thing, focus on the 4 Gospels. The books that follow that Gospels are letters (Paul's) written to members of the early church. You must remember that the disciples were trying really, really hard at the time to spread the word, and had begun to travel A LOT. There was a lot of concern at that time about everyone getting the teachings right. They didn't want one church in Turkey saying one thing, and another in Greece saying something else.

I say all that because there are a lot of well meaning Christians who will quote things from the Bible and say "Jesus/God said", when it was really Paul or someone else.

So, when you're reading those books, you're reading Paul's letters about what he thinks the message should be, and how he thought Christ's teachings should be taught. Some of his interpretations were right on time with what Jesus himself taught. Others...well...they were a reflection of him, his surroundings, and the times that he lived in (his stance on women, sex, etc.)

I used to be really critical of Paul, but after really researching it, I can't be. He was a man who was doing what he thought was best. The intention was there. It was Paul who was adamant about non-Jews being able to receive the teachings of Christ, and this is exactly what Christ wanted. The other disciples (who really didn't care for Paul by the way and for good reason...I can go into that later), weren't so sure about that. Some of them thought it was best that only Jews be ministered to. That's why when Paul and *I think* Peter met up with some others from Israel, they had a HUGE fight!

Jade said:

I'd agree that when it comes to individual members, Christians of all denominations are all over the place in their understanding/acceptance of the concept of the Trinity.

However, it's my understanding that the the concept of a "Triune God", strictly as a matter of church doctrine, is probably the most widely shared and accepted concept of Christian churches (including Baptists).

Again, whether or not that is a correct interpretation is not my point. Just that it's the traditionally accepted one according to most Christian teachings.

.
[This message was edited Wed Apr 14 14:56:38 2004 by Universaluv]

Universaluv said:

YEAH

IT NOT REALLY SPELLED OUT IN BIBLE

BUT THAT WHAT THEY TEACH

There has been talk of the nature of Jesus and the concept of the Trinity, and this is an excerpt from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which sets forth the Church's basis for belief in the divinity of Jesus.

238 Many religions invoke God as "Father". The deity is often considered the "father of gods and of men". In Israel, God is called "Father" inasmuch as he is Creator of the world.Even more, God is Father because of the covenant and the gift of the law to Israel, "his first-born son". God is also called the Father of the king of Israel. Most especially he is "the Father of the poor", of the orphaned and the widowed, who are under his loving protection.6

239 By calling God "Father", the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God's parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God's immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard: no one is father as God is Father.

240 Jesus revealed that God is Father in an unheard-of sense: he is Father not only in being Creator; he is eternally Father in relation to his only Son, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father: "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

241 For this reason the apostles confess Jesus to be the Word: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"; as "the image of the invisible God"; as the "radiance of the glory of God and the very stamp of his nature".

242 Following this apostolic tradition, the Church confessed at the first ecumenical council at Nicaea (325) that the Son is "consubstantial" with the Father, that is, one only God with him.66 The second ecumenical council, held at Constantinople in 381, kept this expression in its formulation of the Nicene Creed and confessed "the only-begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father".


Regardless of whether Jesus is divine, most Christians still see Him as teacher, minister, healer and Redeemer. Most Christians acknowledge his holy sonship. I'm sure that He wants us to focus on each other rather than our differences in beliefs, but this is a good debate to have.
[This message was edited Thu Apr 15 9:10:14 2004 by namepeace]

namepeace said:

Thanks for the input.

Although it is a good debate to have, I hope this thread doesn't shift from Prince's understanding of Jesus and turn into a debate regarding the nature of the Trinity and Christianity since there really is a more appropriate forum for that discussion.

Hey, Illimack!

I thought in my reference to Jesus declaring His oneness with the Father as the Son, and His instruction for worshippers to worship God in spirit and in truth, I had.

I don't recall any direct statement recorded in the Bible where Jesus says something to the effect of: 'Verily I say unto you, worship Me.' But, the entire context of His interaction with people as Lord, the Messiah, God, the Son of Man is about His deity.

Personally, I think much of that is bound up in the miracles He performed. It was easy enough for people (sane & otherwise) to claim to be God. Rather than just walk around and say, "I am God -- worship me," Christ went around fulfilling Jewish/Old Testament prophecy concerning the Messiah, their prophesied God-in-the-flesh Reconciler for humanity. Jesus would perform a miracle and respond to indignant Jewish religious leaders by addressing their sin or by forgiving the sins of someone He'd healed. He did so with the declaration that it was His authority to do so.

Whom will people believe to be God more readily -- someone who runs around saying "Worship me because I'm God" or someone healing the sick, reviving the dead and feeding thousands of people?

All these things pointed to His divinity. And, again, if He said He and the Father were one and that people were to worship God, to Whom He was the one true way (John 14:6), it's fairly clear there, too, that He was declaring Himself the Object of worship. After His ascension, His disciples worshipped Him (Luke 24:52). Again, I don't think the Lord would have allowed people to worship Him (before or after His ascension) were it not part of that spiritual, true act of worship of God.

And, to keep this post decidedly on-topic, may I issue a weak, "Ahhoooowah."

OdysseyMiles said:

Then why do people that go to baptist and other Christian churches against the JW's? I don't understand the whole deal...why do the JW's not believe Jesus was crucified on the cross? What is all the beef about??
I've looked up JW on the net but cannot find anything on WHY they believe Jesus was killed with a stake, not a cross..anyone know?

I believe there are others who believe that Jesus came 4rom the "stars" or some crud like that (sorry 2 anyone believing that, feel free, after all we should all be tolerant to each other's views and beliefs, not matter what they are, right? )

In regards to a theocratic order: Prince is descibing a form of rulership. A democratic order is rule by people. A theocratic order is rule by God. God being the ultimate ruler. His laws, commandments and ways of doing things are always for our benefit. In a democratic order you must follow the laws of the land (which are generally there for our benefit) or you will be punished by the government. In a theocratic order you must follow the laws of God (which are always there for your benefit) or eventually you will be "imprisoned" so to say, unable to be around to influence those who want to obey God. God's way of doing things can be found in the Bible. We cannot hide from God like we may be able to avoid getting caught by human governments if we are not obeying the law. Jesus as the King of the Theocracy is able to peer into the human heart and see what our motives are. Much like he was able to do as a human on earth. God's way of ruling and doing things is simple (1+1+1=3). Eventually, the only form of government will be a theocratic order, God rule. In the Bible this is called The Kingdom of God. His government, with Christ as King. And really isn't that what the human family needs, a Wise, Just, Powerful and Loving ruler?

Even as an atheist or agnostic, I think so far this is the most thought out and well written thread I have ever read on 'The Org'.

Well done u lot for not 'doing the norm' and turning it into an anti JW / religous thread.


[This message was edited Thu Apr 15 2:28:51 2004 by xt1000]

i think that the "best" religion would b the 1 that acknowledges all others and let's them be and doesn't try 2 change them. My neighbour (i won't say what religion) but he is in church VERY frequently but is racist as hell. That ain't right.