The Rainbow Children and the ONA tour were very Bible-focused, whereas Lovesexy was more spirit-focused.

Using song lyrics and/or quotes from concerts/interviews, let's discuss Prince's views of / relationship with Jesus. Has this relationship changed over the years? Has Prince's spiritual life become more or less Jesus-focused? Does Prince feel that he has a relationship with Jesus?

Please avoid turning this thread into a pro-/anti- JW thread. I'm much more curious in what Prince himself has said on the subject.

For instance, at the beginning of the 2000 Celebration show, Prince changed the lyrics of The Greatest Romance Ever Sold to the chant "The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived" - is this from a standpoint of Jesus being the son of God, or from the standpoint of we should all be like Jesus?

booyah said:

Just trying to help you out here. A very interesting topic if it can stay on course. A pagan Goddess-worshipper myself, I have a lot of respect and love for Jesus the man and the prophet. It's just too bad that it's nearly impossible to discuss him without getting mired in dogma and ideology.

All I know is, he is singing the lyrics to "Anna Stesia" differently. Instead of saying "save me Jesus," he says "save me Father." Don't mess with my song man.

It does give mixed signals, becuase it was my understanding that jw's don't believe Jesus to be the son of God, but when they come to my house they say they do. So... I don't know. I don't really know what he thinks of Jesus anymore.

Well, assuming he is a Jehovah's Witness, his spiritual life is probably less "Jesus-focused" than it used to be.

Actually I believe that JW's don't believe in the Trinity, that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are essentially one and the same ("1+1+1 is 3"). As I understand it, they believe in more of a heirarchy, with Jehovah and the top and Jesus as a lesser divine being.


But I could be very wrong.....


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[This message was edited Wed Apr 14 9:09:24 2004 by Universaluv]

I think whatever oblique references to Jesus that Prince has included in his music were often drowned out by the overt sexuality of his image. In recent years, he's been trying to flip that construct.

"The Cross," as inspiring as it was, was just one religious song on an album that had many more overtly sexual ones ("IT," "Hot Thing," the vamp of "IIWYG," etc.). I mean, during the media blitz that followed Purple Rain, Prince's claims of being religious were ridiculed because of his racy tendencies. So, "God" seemed an odd juxtaposition in a movie that features P masturbating his guitar at the film's end or that featured "Darling Nikki" and all the brouhaha that greeted that song. And, again, a hymn follows "DN" -- but in reverse.

I mean, Prince's early mix of Christian references and lewdness had many a Sunday School teacher up in arms about how he was confused and a pawn of the devil.

I think even "Anna Stesia" -- which got major airplay from DC's Donnie Simpson -- probably was overshadowed by the nude Lovesexy cover.

So, in recent years, his transformation of "The Cross" into "The Christ" and shift away from profanity and lewdness has been interesting. He also has mentioned feeling "free" enough to be as overtly Christian in his lyrics as he wants.

I think a lot of his music -- "Anna Stesia" & the dialogue in "Temptation," for example -- points to him having a relationship with Jesus. I think he's gotten a lot of mileage out of the "two sides"/Gemini fascination, for years, but that he wants the Christian beliefs to predominate the music now. It's always going to be funky.

There's always going to the rock-idol showmanship, but I believe (and a lot of my friends have said this for a long time) that he has always seen himself as a preacher or teacher of sorts. It's just now, I think, he feels released to be one in the more traditional sense.

ThreadBare said:

I was under the impression that the lyric change had more to do with the fact that he no longer believed that Jesus was crucified on a cross.


I agree completely.

booyah said:

Both!! "The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived" is a publication about Jesus' life and ministry published by JWs. I believe that Prince was not only pointing out that Jesus is God's son, but also that we should all strive to follow the perfect example that Jesus set. Prince has always loved him some Jesus .
Remember the Syracuse show back in '85?? During one of those breaks, there's a tape playing and Prince says "there's only one Lord, Jesus."
He mentions Jesus again in "The Holy River". I think that after studying the Bible a lot, Prince feels more confident mentioning Jesus in more specific terms.

ThreadBare said:

But Prince is most likely not a Christian anymore.


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[This message was edited Wed Apr 14 9:20:31 2004 by Universaluv]

ThreadBare said:

Thank you! This is one of the most intelligent, thought-provoking posts I've seen here in a long time (as are the other responses above). I've been thinking of starting this thread for a while, and I'm glad I did.

Prince's tension between sexuality and worshipping God has always been interesting to me (and many others, I'm sure). The song Come (and the segues between songs on the album) is very involved in this tension - Per Nilson mentioned in an Uptown review of Come all the mentions of 'Come' and all the water-references in the Bible. I just finished a church course called Living Waters which deals with a lot of tension/reconciliation between sex and faith, so this topic is particularly interesting to me right now.

Universaluv said:

JWs are Christians .

booyah said:

You're right, it is interesting. The whole sex/faith thing manifested itself in a huge way with Marvin Gaye and I believe it kinda returned with R. Kelly to an extent too. One minute they wanna be preachers, the next minute, it's "You Sure Love To Ball" . Man, I miss Marvin.

booyah said:

[b]I agree, this is a very interesting subject. One of the reasons I was drawn to Prince in the first place had to do with the fact that his music was sexual but at the same time spiritual. Basically that just tells me that Prince was just a normal person.....sometimes we feel like f#cking while other times we feel like praying, nothing wrong with that at all. And as far as who he worships and what he believes, who knows???? does it really matter? His overall theme that he seems to convey is.....GOD IS GREAT, LOVE ONE ANOTHER....I think that is a universal element with no right or wrong. A friend of mine who listens to Prince is convinced that P thinks he is a PROPHET! Interesting....

OdysseyMiles said:

No, Christians believe in the diety of Christ and worship him accordingly. JW's believe that Christ is God's Son and is inferior to Jehovah. That's why they worship "Jehovah" rather than "Christ".

Universaluv said:

Hi universaluv. I have to disagree with you here. I was taught that Christians are people who accept that Jesus is the son of God, the Christ, and that he died for our sins. I grew up Baptist and went to Catholic school. I ALWAYS believed that Jesus was God's son. I never thought that Jesus and God were one and the same. JW's do consider themsleves to be Christians. You might be confusing them with Muslims and Jews who do NOT believe that Jesus is the Son of God or died for our sins. They consider him to be a great prophet.

illimack said:

Well put. Thanks!!

Universaluv said:

Christian -- (a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination)
Straight out of the dictionary..JW's do belive in, and Follow the teachings of Chirst.

bananacologne said:

Who's your buddy???

illimack said:

Oh Jesus H. Christ! This is turning into the Religion & Politics forum.

Let's just say that there is a fundamental difference regarding the role of Jesus in traditional Christianity and the JW faith.

JW's do not believe in the Trinity. Rather, they believe in the superiority of Jehovah (check out the JW website on this. http://www.watchtower.org...cle_06.htm )

Traditional Christiantity on the other hand....

THE Roman Catholic Church states: "The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion . . . Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: 'the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.' In this Trinity . . . the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent."—The Catholic Encyclopedia.

Nearly all other churches in Christendom agree. For example, the Greek Orthodox Church also calls the Trinity "the fundamental doctrine of Christianity," even saying: "Christians are those who accept Christ as God." In the book Our Orthodox Christian Faith, the same church declares: "God is triune. . . . The Father is totally God. The Son is totally God. The Holy Spirit is totally God."

Thus, the Trinity is considered to be "one God in three Persons." Each is said to be without beginning, having existed for eternity. Each is said to be almighty, with each neither greater nor lesser than the others.

All of that to say that since in the JW faith Jesus' role is less central than it is in the more traditional Christian beleifs, it is likely that Jesus plays less of a role in Prince's spiritual life now.



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[This message was edited Wed Apr 14 11:28:47 2004 by Universaluv]

FunkMistress said:

Thanks

What's a Christ?

booyah said:

But booyah, considsering that Prince's religious conversion would change his views on Jesus, it's going to be kinda hard to not go there, don't ya think?

Universaluv said:

That's kinda of interesting. I went through 8 yrs of catholic school and never knew that Catholics considered Jesus to be God.
Anyway, I was raised in the Baptist church. Some Baptist believe that Jesus is God, some don't. It just never made sense to me.

FunkMistress said:

Ah! Could be.

Following Jesus vs. "being a Christian."

That's an interesting debate. What's in a name, when your name is written in the Book of Life? That's a question this thread raises. Can people accept & follow Christ as their Lord and Savior, and still consider themselves to be pagan or Muslim or Hindu or Jehovah's Witness?

Hmm, when religous identity becomes cultural identity, yet one lives as a follower & disciple of Christ, what is the boundary between "true to one's self" and attempted polytheism or heresy?

Christ said He/God is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth.

illimack said:

Yes, I agree. But you know Prince has never been one to tow the party line on anything, and so it's dangerous to assume something about him by what JWs as a whole believe. That's why I was looking for quotes from him or his lyrics that would point to any relationship with Jesus (whatever that may be).

ThreadBare said:

I can usually easily follow your posts Thread, but you kind of lost me on the first part of this one.


Regarding the last statement of your post.....Did Jesus himself EVER tell us to pray to him or to worship him?

(P.S., sorry that your thread got jacked Booyah. They're going to to have to move this to the p&r forum soon. )

booyah said:

Remember in Holy RIVER when he says something about calling the name of God and he says something like ....." Gone and say it .....Jesus".

Contrast that with his hall of fame speech when he says "all thanks to the most high Jehovah."

illimack said:

The thrust of the Gospels and the New Testament is accepting the deity of Christ. The equation, for example, of Jesus, the Word and God in John 1 in addition to Jesus' command to worship God in spirit and truth (John 4) was central to the opposition Jesus provoked in the Pharisees. So, yes, the command to regard Christ as God is fairly consistent within the Bible.

illimack said:

A former pastor of mine repeatedly preached that one could be a follower of Christ and still consider himself/herself a Muslim culturally. I just finished reading a post at another site from a Christian living in an Arab nation yet afraid to live outwardly as a Christian out of fear of execution. He professes Christ as his savior yet is living as a Muslim.

Those examples and the debate about JWs' thoughts about Christ jogged my memory of my pastor's claim.