Okay apologies for YET ANOTHER thread on Musicology but like others I enjoy putting across my own :2 cents:

IMHO there are two weaknesses to this album:

1) Musicology is a nice album. I am enjoying it. It contains some good songs (certainly no bad songs) BUT there are no classics and that is one of it's weaknesses.

When I read everyone else's reviews the trax I was most excited about were the "rock" trax as that is my preferred Prince style. But the "rock" trax on this album are fairly lame and certainly do not "kick ass" in the way trax like Let's Go Crazy or Endorphinemachine do. These trax have a sense of urgency with furious guitar solos that showcase Prince's ax hero status. The "rock" trax on Musicology sound like cast offs from in the vein of Three Chains Of Gold or Strays Of The World neither of which work for me (as Prince is trying to do a Queens Bohemian Rhapsody by changing key and melody halfway through the song - very tricky to pull off without sounding clumsy).

Interestingly for me while I *prefer* rocky Prince I do of course love soul/funk Prince also but I was surprised to find that my preferred trax are things like Call My Name or Dr Mr Man. In fact they save this album for me from being a complete let down.

Okay so I'm a little baised towards rocky Prince but imagine if instead of A Million Days and The Marrying Kind Prince had instead included Moonbeam Levels and Witness 4 The Prosecution?

I just feel to be a success every album needs that essential classic track(s). For example Purple Rain in my opinion had four! = Let's Go Crazy, Beautiful Ones, When Doves Cry and Purple Rain.

2) The other is that it doesn't "feel" like a single coherently themed album but rather a collection of songs that showcase Prince's ability to produce different genres of music (much in the way Rave did previously).

What do I mean by this? Well listen to Purple Rain or ATWIAD or Parade or SOTT or Lovesexy. These all "feel" like they were recorded in a single day when Prince was in a certain frame of mind - hey lets do a rock funk album = Purple Rain. Okay so I know they were not recorded in this way, but they "feel" like single sessions.

I suppose if anything Musicology sounds a bit "breezy" and laid back and maybe that's the problem for me. I prefer angry Prince where there is some urgency and something to prove other than how many styles of music he can cover on a single CD!

However, I will laud Prince for one thing on this album - he is finally getting political! There's some interesting lyrics. He normally (though not always) shys away from politics preferring to cover spiritual, sexual and relationship ground so this is refreshing.

FINALLY...

I also think that if Prince is to truly gain his mainstream audience again and be a chart topper (this was probably his best/last chance) then he should look towards his rock/pop personna more than his R&B/Soul/Funk persona.

Back in the early 80s perceived wisdom in the music industry was that the majority of record sales were to white teenage boys. Now I'm not sure if that still holds true, although it's interesting to read (yes I need to find my sources but I HAVE read this) that the "majority" of sales for Rap albums are to white teenage boys - hence the huge success of Eminem (ie a white guy doing black music).

Now back in 84 Prince was a black man doing white music (and bringing that black funk/soul edge to his rock). Purple Rain very carefully targetted this audience hence his huge success (the same year as Bruce Springsteen's Born In The USA was an equally huge seller). Following that Prince has progressively gone back to being more "black" with his music and, I believe from seeing the faces at concerts, his audience has become progressively less white (hardcore audience that is and I am NOT saying he doesn't have many many white fans - I am one!)

What this means is IF and I mean *IF* Prince wants to regain his mainstream commercial stature then he needs to recapture that Purple Rain rocky Prince audience rather than trying to be an R&B type artist because there are others who are better or at least better recognised and accepted by the public at being that!

That means to have been a huge success/classic the Musicology album needed to be more rock focused with some killer urgent trax.

This is just my opinion but feel it would be interesting to discuss.

Anybody?

jaypotton said:

I am waiting for the final, studio mix, before I complain about anything, and even then, probably wont complain a bit!

Do you know something I don't? I thought the version handed out at the concerts/Regal Theatres and available to download WAS the final mix? I thought the only difference between that and the version Columbia are releasing to wrekkastows is the packagaing?

Could be wrong. Might be interesting!

jaypotton said:

I think that's a teeny bit unfair, coz Moonbeam and Witness are two of the finest prince tunes full stop. Released or boot. Well, Moonbeam is, at least.

Everyone'll reactly differently to a bit of music - it's a shame you haven't taken to this, but that's entirely cool. Lots of other people won't dig stuff you find to be great music.

The rock tracks don't kick ass, but they are growers. You're right though - there ain't no Let's go crazy on here, but let's face it now - there ain't never gonna be another Let's go crazy on an album. No song that makes you leap out the chair and think "OH, SHIT MY FUCKING COW!" the first time you hear it.

I agree - it isn't a "classic" at all, but it's a lot better than I was expecting. I could listen to this again and again and it's growing on me all the time - I could never say that about, say, Rave. It's a good record.

I agree with you on the lyrics - I don't mind him getting political with a bit of bible study thrown in. I think he was sailing pretty close to the wind on TRC in a couple of songs and glad he's steered clear here. Having said that, i'd take TRC over Musicology because the music of the former is so wonderful.

Teeny bit unfair yeah you're right but I wasn't going to suggest just any "kick ass trax". He has them in his vault and could have used them BUT of course if he had some fa(m)s would have complained it wasn't all new material OR the new versions weren't as good as the vault versions OR that Witness belonged on a Vault album of Revolution connected trax OR ...well you get the picture.

I just wanted a little bit more from this album. I wanted that excited feeling I last got when I put TGE in my CD player and felt blown away by the power of the album 65 mins later! Since then there have been trax that have done this (and I can't help but feel Emancipation would have done this as a single disc) but not a complete album.

I suppose the nearest would be TRC but without the voiceover.

You are also right that the Musicology album is a grower and I have to say I don't actually dislike any of the trax. I just wanted a couple of kick ass tunes that would grab attention like Let's Go Crazy, Endorphinemachine, ICNTTPOYM, The Cross, Electric Chair, Chaos & Disorder, Bambi and so on.
[This message was edited Thu Apr 1 7:14:47 2004 by jaypotton]

its not a classic because you havent 'lived with it' for long enough yet. give a it a couple of years and a couple more albums, and everyone will be saying "..hmm, it's just not as good as musicology.."

Okay apologies for YET ANOTHER thread on Musicology but like others I enjoy putting across my own :2 cents:

IMHO there are two weaknesses to this album:

1) Musicology is a nice album. I am enjoying it. It contains some good songs (certainly no bad songs) BUT there are no classics and that is one of it's weaknesses.

When I read everyone else's reviews the trax I was most excited about were the "rock" trax as that is my preferred Prince style. But the "rock" trax on this album are fairly lame and certainly do not "kick ass" in the way trax like Let's Go Crazy or Endorphinemachine do. These trax have a sense of urgency with furious guitar solos that showcase Prince's ax hero status. The "rock" trax on Musicology sound like cast offs from in the vein of Three Chains Of Gold or Strays Of The World neither of which work for me (as Prince is trying to do a Queens Bohemian Rhapsody by changing key and melody halfway through the song - very tricky to pull off without sounding clumsy).

Interestingly for me while I *prefer* rocky Prince I do of course love soul/funk Prince also but I was surprised to find that my preferred trax are things like Call My Name or Dr Mr Man. In fact they save this album for me from being a complete let down.

Okay so I'm a little baised towards rocky Prince but imagine if instead of A Million Days and The Marrying Kind Prince had instead included Moonbeam Levels and Witness 4 The Prosecution?

I just feel to be a success every album needs that essential classic track(s). For example Purple Rain in my opinion had four! = Let's Go Crazy, Beautiful Ones, When Doves Cry and Purple Rain.

2) The other is that it doesn't "feel" like a single coherently themed album but rather a collection of songs that showcase Prince's ability to produce different genres of music (much in the way Rave did previously).

What do I mean by this? Well listen to Purple Rain or ATWIAD or Parade or SOTT or Lovesexy. These all "feel" like they were recorded in a single day when Prince was in a certain frame of mind - hey lets do a rock funk album = Purple Rain. Okay so I know they were not recorded in this way, but they "feel" like single sessions.

I suppose if anything Musicology sounds a bit "breezy" and laid back and maybe that's the problem for me. I prefer angry Prince where there is some urgency and something to prove other than how many styles of music he can cover on a single CD!

However, I will laud Prince for one thing on this album - he is finally getting political! There's some interesting lyrics. He normally (though not always) shys away from politics preferring to cover spiritual, sexual and relationship ground so this is refreshing.

FINALLY...

I also think that if Prince is to truly gain his mainstream audience again and be a chart topper (this was probably his best/last chance) then he should look towards his rock/pop personna more than his R&B/Soul/Funk persona.

Back in the early 80s perceived wisdom in the music industry was that the majority of record sales were to white teenage boys. Now I'm not sure if that still holds true, although it's interesting to read (yes I need to find my sources but I HAVE read this) that the "majority" of sales for Rap albums are to white teenage boys - hence the huge success of Eminem (ie a white guy doing black music).

Now back in 84 Prince was a black man doing white music (and bringing that black funk/soul edge to his rock). Purple Rain very carefully targetted this audience hence his huge success (the same year as Bruce Springsteen's Born In The USA was an equally huge seller). Following that Prince has progressively gone back to being more "black" with his music and, I believe from seeing the faces at concerts, his audience has become progressively less white (hardcore audience that is and I am NOT saying he doesn't have many many white fans - I am one!)

What this means is IF and I mean *IF* Prince wants to regain his mainstream commercial stature then he needs to recapture that Purple Rain rocky Prince audience rather than trying to be an R&B type artist because there are others who are better or at least better recognised and accepted by the public at being that!

That means to have been a huge success/classic the Musicology album needed to be more rock focused with some killer urgent trax.

This is just my opinion but feel it would be interesting to discuss.


So basically you are saying that you want Prince to do "purple rain" type rock material again and get away from the funk? Hmmm somebodyt wants Prince to go back to the past sounds imagine that.

something can't be a classic untill it has stood the test of time..

i have a feeling you're gonna feel silly 5 years from now when someone shows you this post..

musicology is now, and it feels so damn good.. stop over analyzing and you'll enjoy it alot more.

themend said:

Exactly! there isn't such a thing as an instant classic. We will not know what songs on here or classic prince songs until years from now. Also Prince can't be all things to all people all the time. We as fans have to stop wishing for Prince to create an CD based on each of our individual desires. Release your xpectations. As far as coherence there is nothing coherent about SOTT. That album is all over the map. IT is only over time that it seems coherent. We as long time Prince fans are very jaded. Which as human nature we should be. We have literally heard Prince though hundreds of songs. That's why gems like for instance 'pearls before the swine' are lost on us, becuase we are constantly trying to compare each song a 100 other songs instead of actually listening and learning. We expect to be blown away and like making love to your mate for the 1000's time it gets to be more about appreciation than being blown away. There's a lot to hear on Musicology. Listen to what's there not what isn't.

Would you agree that Musicology sounds mostly like funk/rnb/soul? Well Prince has been doing that since his first album, but no one seems to be saying he's gone back to the past in that regard. Yet when anyone mention him doing more rock, they immediately say, oh, you want him to go backwards and sound like he did?! Does Endorphinmachine sound like Purple Rain?

Thing about rock, Prince still does it better than most anyone around.

Whereas there are hundreds of decent soul/rnb/funk tracks being released every year.

That's because all you need is a good voice, and an army of producers and tech wizards will do the music. Whereas Rock needs a chaismatic singer plusa great guitarist to work well, something that can't be created in a studio by non-entities. And of course Prince is both of these.

That's one of the reasons why I think Prince should do more rock - it puts him on a higher level of performance that other artists simply don't have the talent to reach. Even if Purple Rain were released today it would still sound fresh and amazing, it doesn't sound retro to my ears. Soul/rnb/funk dates a lot quicker than a good rock track I reckon.

Prince led the way in funk/rnb/soul (during the 80s) but everyone and their daughter has caught up so it no longer sounds as innovative and 'classic' as it once did.

I like Musicology - but I can't see any tracks on it replacing any songs on 'The Best of'.

jaypotton said:

It is not a real "album" album cause it's just assembled from old tunes he had lying around. He is still a good producer, but this one's nothing special. Problem is he set the bar to high in the past, no way he can reach it today.

jaypotton said:

"Prince was a black artist doing white music "

Only if you look at Rock&Roll as "white" music which I dont. It may be the music that whites prefer, but if you do your homework you would see that Rock is just as black as r&b, hip hop and blues. And rock simply being a extension of blues and r&b. Any guitar player knows this. This says so many things on so many levels. It says that as a artist, Prince has to sit down and think about what white people want to hear in order to be successful. I doubt that Prince being a free thinker would ever consider this, especially in this day and time. And I really doubt that 15 year old white boys in this day and age will be into Prince like that anyway( not with 50 cent being there hero). And like you contradicted yourself in the first place. Whites buy the the most rap and r&b period. They are the majority of consumers, simply becuase they are the majority. This is the first time that R&B and hip hop filled the top five positions at one time earlier this year. What's up with all this comeback talk anyway? My only concern is whether I will enjoy this record or not. I dont feel the need to be a part of something big as a fan. Look how many albums went unnoticed at the time of its release that are now considered classics.
Sign o the times only sold one million copies worldwide, and Lovesexy barley scratched the U.S top ten. So that says what? Lovesexy was a rock album that barely sold in the United States. Although it went to number one in the U.K. If all Prince has to do is make a Rock album, then why didn't Warners allow him to release The Undertaker disc to Guitar World Magazine and the home video? Why didn't they promote Caos and Disorder better? It's not the sound of a album that guarantees record sales in this buisness. It's the promotion behind it. Look how much shit sales because that's what they market to people. Prince is probably not trying to make this the big comeback that you guys want. He's a artist expressing himself and sharing it with the public on his own terms. He cant possibly care about chart positions because he gave it away for "free" with concert tickets that include the price of the CD. So he's covered either way it goes and billboard positions would not matter. Those that want Prince to have a big Purple Rain comeback so you can run in the streets, dance and say see " I was a P fan all along " may be disappointed for a very long time.

no, it's not a classic. nor does it break any ground for him musically.


that said, it is thoroughly enjoyable from start to finish. i liken it to the Vault album, which isn't all that special, but is solid almost all the way through, and you can put it on just about anytime and enjoy it. decent songs, well-crafted, and doesn't oustay its welcome.

It is not a classic because the songs on it aren't that good.

tricky99 said:

"...like making love to your mate for the 1000's time..." <--that's one of the best lines I've heard in here in a while.

I left the Staples Center on Monday night with my daughter next to me (she had hurridly put on her pj's and was wrapped up in a blanket, ready for the long 3+ hours-drive home.) I put on the new CD and started listening to the songs. However, I was still in a bit of a daze from watching Prince again (front row!), so I wasn't really paying THAT close attention... It wasn't until track 6, "Cinnamon Girl," that my attention was drawn back to the music. Some of the notes, the intros to these new songs... I felt like I had heard somewhere before. Now, I don't have access to or have listened to about 99% of all the boots y'all like to brag about, so I'm not comparing to any older tracks. But he is going to different places with this music, different colors, different flavors...

So, I can see why a lot of folks aren't "grabbed" by some of the songs on here. It took another two hours, after I had passed San Diego, before I really started listening to the words and the musical breakdowns.

So far, I've enjoyed every flavor that Prince has allowed me to taste, every color of his music he has chosen to share with us.

Give it a try, let it grow. The live performances of these songs will certainly grab ya!

jaypotton said:

All prince has 2 do 2 be more appreciated and i could care less about mainstream is 2 be more visible performing wise. Like this summer he will be doing the Essence music festival. Do what he does better than any1 else...perform. The buzz he has gotten has been from his performances. Grammy &RRHOF! A classic cd is subjective,what's classic 2u might not be classic 2me or this new radio format that is full of shit. Prince is the definition of classic. Michael Jordan scored 60 points only twice in his career. Prince has scored his 60 a few times(1999,PR,SOTT,and i think D&P and Dirty Mind and Controversy!) How do u define classic by grammy wins? Is nrah jones's 2 cd's classic? ,what about Usher's YEAH song with lil john. Is that the type of song prince should have written?,I think not!! Be glad that prince is still doing as u put it good work as evident by TRC, musicology and the downloadable cd's that r at on the NPGMCLUB site. Just chill and enjoy the ride!!!!!

ELBOOGY said:

Prince is like a chameleon,he adapts 2 the situation and survives and will never die. Long live MR.MUSIC!!

tricky99 said:

Great post!

RupertZ said:

U say it's not that good but then again who ru? I don't like most of bob dylan's songs but he has touched a lot of people so i give him props. This prince cd might not become a classic in america but could easily be considered 1 in japan and be played 2 death in underground clubs over there. I went 2 japan a few times in the mid 90's and they was playng tamborine 2 death as well aspussy control. So its all a matter of who what where and when! It's all subjective when it comes 2 prince bcuz he is the most versitle and diverse producer/singer/musician/writer in the history of music! If u disagree holla back.

Lots of interesting and differing views, thanks for joining this thread. As I said it is only my opinion. Some of you appear to agree, many don't. Best thing though is that as far as I can see nobody is getting personal on this thread so at last an adult discussion on prince.org!

I'm not advocating or asking for Prince to go back and record Purple Rain Mk2. I have spent over 20 years of my life on this trip taking strange but exciting turns at every release. The excitement with Prince is never knowing what's next.

In the last few years we have seen TRC, One Nite Alone, Xenophobia and NEWS. All have been very challenging (although for my personal taste I only like the first two).

For me Musicology sounds very much like he is retreading familiar ground in an effort to be commercial again. This is not a bad thing and I would be happy to see our man at the top of the charts. My point is though that IF PRINCE WANTS TO BE COMMERCIAL AGAIN then he should have headed more towards the rock side of his repertoire and included some solid rock songs in the vein of Let's Go Crazy.

I have listened another five times since starting this post and I remain fixed on my opinion.

Musicology is a good album with some good songs. It is not a classic because it doesn't contain any killer trax.

tricky99 said:

Guys you are of course right but I have to say that *I* got a *feeling* that I was listening to something very special the first few plays of PR, ATWIAD, Parade, SOTT, Lovesexy.

I simply do not get that with Musicology. I have the same feeling for this as I got with Rave, Slight disappointment. Trax that grow on me and I like. I know I will play this to death over the next 6 months then leave it on the shelf and "rediscover" Prince's classics only putting Musicology now and then.

For me it is the repeat playing some 20 years later that signals a true classic.

Maybe I will be proven wrong and in 2024 I will be rockin (chair) away to Musicology. I just doubt it!

First of all, please get over this "waiting for Purple Rain II" bullshit. Thats not a realistic argument against fans who do not like Musicology.

Its fans being honest and having high expectations, and why not? He consistently dominated the 80's with progressive music.

I personally do think there a few gems on the new CD. But as far as songwriting/musicianship and production, it lags. I dont expect more than that, most major artists (Bowie, Stevie Wonder, Fletwood Mac, Michael Jackson etc.) have followed exactly the same trend.

Im not a fan living in the past, Im a fan hoping for an exciting future.